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Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

keltoi

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At least I think I do :) I'm not limiting God...I'm avoiding contradictions.
No you are creating contradictions and pretty big ones. We are agreed God is all powerful, well at least I hope we agree on that becaus if you think he isn't then we have found yet another problem, so why can't an all powerful God know what we are going to do even though he has given us free will? Or to put it in a way that is better framed to your beliefs why can't we have free will and God know what we are going to do before time even began?

h2o forms:
gas = steam
liquid = water
solid = ice

To avoid disambiguation resulting in a contradiction, h2o in liquid form (water) is not a solid. See how easy words are twisted when we play with them? I said that "you cannot have a liquid solid (two very finite states of matter), and your example definitely found a way to twist them.
At the so called point of freezing H20 can be all 3. I could go into it with you but that would take this topic further off topic and with me only being an ordinary member I don't want a mod to tell me to stop going off topic. Oh wait a minute it was a mod that went off topic in the first place.
We need to be careful about doing this when we read Scripture, and read it in it's full context.
Says the man who provides one or two verses and suggests they prove his point.

The analogy I draw to this (and to remain on topic) is that your free will is not free at all. Sure, you have a will, but it's certainly not free in any literal sense.
So the logical conclusion is that God is controling us like puppets by giving us a will that he designed and he has forced us into sin.

I don't say that...you say that. I don't see a problem. If you see a problem, present it.
I don't say God is the cause of Sin your posts do lead in that direction. I have presented the problem, numerous times, and so have others. "There are none so blind as those that will not see."

Okay...glad we could clear that up. Again....what's the problem?
You quoted my post where I, again, say what the problem is and you are asking me "what's the problem?" I said in a previous post I wonder if I can block a mod? The mod I was refering to is you, why? because you have taken this around in circles and I'm tired of it.

I will prove to you that you're governed by your nature: Change your sexuality right now. Just flip-flop it. You can't.
Can't I? How do you know? You don't now me. Another problem here is you need to define sexuality.

Why wouldn't it work in this case?
Let me give you a hypothetical in answer to your hypothetical. I'm a penguin and I live on Antartica. Penguins sing with beautiful voices because it is in their nature to do so, I can't sing with a beautiful voice but I can dance. Singing is in my nature but my ability is not up to par with my nature and my singing voice sounds more like a vuvuzela. However, I can dance like Fred Astair.
Do other people cause you to sin?
Other people may lead me astray but I do not blame others for my sin. I have never suffered with afluenza because my parents spoilt me.
Or are you saying you're simply unwilling to stop sinning?
I am saying my ability is not up to par. I can will anything, I will myself to be a great rockstar, but my ability stops this from being a reality. I can will a mountain to move and I have faith but I can't do it, nor can anyone else by the way. Why because I don't have enough faith. I am human and I am flawed. Do you get it yet?
 
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98cwitr

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No you are creating contradictions and pretty big ones. We are agreed God is all powerful, well at least I hope we agree on that becaus if you think he isn't then we have found yet another problem, so why can't an all powerful God know what we are going to do even though he has given us free will? Or to put it in a way that is better framed to your beliefs why can't we have free will and God know what we are going to do before time even began?

I've already presented as to why this cannot be. To summarize, God could have simply not put the Tree in the garden, created the devil, or given Adam/Eve the potential to disobey...and yet He did all of these things and is still Perfect and Good.

At the so called point of freezing H20 can be all 3. I could go into it with you but that would take this topic further off topic and with me only being an ordinary member I don't want a mod to tell me to stop going off topic. Oh wait a minute it was a mod that went off topic in the first place.
Says the man who provides one or two verses and suggests they prove his point.

So the logical conclusion is that God is controling us like puppets by giving us a will that he designed and he has forced us into sin.

I don't think we're "forced" to do anything, no more than I am forced to eat food to live or have to use the bathroom.

I don't say God is the cause of Sin your posts do lead in that direction. I have presented the problem, numerous times, and so have others. "There are none so blind as those that will not see."

I say God is the cause of everything because He created everything. Look at Job 1-2:

Job 2:10 He replied, “Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”

Can't I? How do you know? You don't now me. Another problem here is you need to define sexuality.

Because you're human...at least I think you are. Wanna take a Turing test? If you're human, then I don't believe you have control over your nature (back to Proverbs 16:9, 20:24...and all the examples of God hardening someone's heart, to Romans 1, 5, and 9)

Let me give you a hypothetical in answer to your hypothetical. I'm a penguin and I live on Antartica. Penguins sing with beautiful voices because it is in their nature to do so, I can't sing with a beautiful voice but I can dance. Singing is in my nature but my ability is not up to par with my nature and my singing voice sounds more like a vuvuzela. However, I can dance like Fred Astair.
Other people may lead me astray but I do not blame others for my sin. I have never suffered with afluenza because my parents spoilt me.
I am saying my ability is not up to par. I can will anything, I will myself to be a great rockstar, but my ability stops this from being a reality. I can will a mountain to move and I have faith but I can't do it, nor can anyone else by the way. Why because I don't have enough faith. I am human and I am flawed. Do you get it yet?

That one's easy. If penguins sing with beautiful voices and you can't sing with a beautiful voice but can dance...well..you're not a penguin then. You simply do not fit the very definition or possess the definitive attribute. Nature has to do with both will AND ability. To say someone is a "natural" at something, means they are good at it without a lot of training, right? That would speak to their ability. Their will (drive or desire) to do it would be based on a lot of differing internal and external factors driving that. Right? So if our sin nature is still controlling us, and not the Spirit of God, then we might have the desire [will?] to stop sinning, but not the ability (back to Romans 5). Let me ask you this, how would you define the difference between man's desire for something, and his will?

The most beautiful part of this analogy is that "with God all things are possible": He can take a penguin-like creature, who cannot sing, and through His power make it sing more beautifully than all the others, thus making the creature by definition, a real penguin! I think that's a perfect example of God taking a reprobate sinner, and through the Blood of Christ, making him/her into a Child of God.
 
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keltoi

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I've already presented as to why this cannot be. To summarize, God could have simply not put the Tree in the garden, created the devil, or given Adam/Eve the potential to disobey...and yet He did all of these things and is still Perfect and Good.
No you have presented why you think they cannot be. You have not given any conclusive evidence that your belief is correct.

I don't think we're "forced" to do anything, no more than I am forced to eat food to live or have to use the bathroom.
So you have freewill to decide then. You can either obey or disobey the choice is yours and God lets you make your choice.

I say God is the cause of everything because He created everything. Look at Job 1-2:

Job 2:10 He replied, “Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”
1 verse out of context immediately after the post where you tell me we have to be careful to read the Bible in context, your doing a great job.

Because you're human...at least I think you are.
So God made bots did he? I thought script kiddies did that, how stupid could I be thinking that there are intelligent people out there who can create a bot to post responses on a forum or other social media. Bots must be God's creation and therefor his fault.
Wanna take a Turing test? If you're human, then I don't believe you have control over your nature (back to Proverbs 16:9, 20:24...and all the examples of God hardening someone's heart, to Romans 1, 5, and 9)
Wanna read up on AI? Why all these off topics?

That one's easy. If penguins sing with beautiful voices and you can't sing with a beautiful voice but can dance...well..you're not a penguin then. You simply do not fit the very definition or possess the definitive attribute.
Never seen Happy Feet then huh? What is your definition of a human? What happens if someone doesn't fit your limited definition?
Nature has to do with both will AND ability.
So you can't think of any circumstances at all where something has a certain nature but not the ability to fulfil it?
To say someone is a "natural" at something, means they are good at it without a lot of training, right? That would speak to their ability.
Now you are changing nature to natural ability.
Their will (drive or desire) to do it would be based on a lot of differing internal and external factors driving that. Right?
This is the first thing you have said that makes sense.
So if our sin nature is still controlling us, and not the Spirit of God, then we might have the desire [will?] to stop sinning, but not the ability (back to Romans 5).
I knew you would go back to the singular again. One minute you make a common sense statement and then the next sentence goes back to your old discussion. You do remember you said there are a lot of INTERNAL and EXTERNAL factors don't you? Why have you grasped onto 1? People can stop sinning if they couldn't Christ himself wouldn't have said to the adulterous women "go from now on sin no more" John 8:1-11 NASB
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and [began] to teach them. 3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center [of the court], 4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5"Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" 6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him [be the] first to throw a stone at her." 8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9When they heard it, they [began] to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center [of the court]. 10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.]"
If Jesus knows we are incapable of not sinning he wouldn't have said that to her, instead he would've just said "go on try not to sin ok."
Let me ask you this, how would you define the difference between man's desire for something, and his will?
I'm still waiting for you to define sexuality.

The most beautiful part of this analogy is that "with God all things are possible": He can take a penguin-like creature, who cannot sing, and through His power make it sing more beautifully than all the others, thus making the creature by definition, a real penguin! I think that's a perfect example of God taking a reprobate sinner, and through the Blood of Christ, making him/her into a Child of God.
The anology I gave was from Happy Feet not Pinochio. Is a human that cannot walk not human just because they cannot walk? Is a human with six digits on each hand not human because they have six digits on each hand. Your replies to my analogy indicates you have a very limited view as to what makes something what it is, if it doesn't fit your view of a penguin then its not a penguin. I just wonder how far you are willing to take things.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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I've already presented as to why this cannot be. To summarize, God could have simply not put the Tree in the garden, created the devil, or given Adam/Eve the potential to disobey...and yet He did all of these things and is still Perfect and Good.
Yes you did below



I don't think we're "forced" to do anything, no more than I am forced to eat food to live or have to use the bathroom.
Bad example..... apples and oranges


I say God is the cause of everything because He created everything. Look at Job 1-2:

Job 2:10 He replied, “Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”


God did create everything including free will otherwise we couldn't grieve thing Holy spirit

Because you're human...at least I think you are. Wanna take a Turing test? If you're human, then I don't believe you have control over your nature (back to Proverbs 16:9, 20:24...and all the examples of God hardening someone's heart, to Romans 1, 5, and 9)

See my above comment. How does one "blaspheme" the Holy Spirit?
Mark 3:29
But he that blasphemeth against the holy Ghost, shall never have forgiveness, but is culpable of eternal damnation.

That one's easy. If penguins sing with beautiful voices and you can't sing with a beautiful voice but can dance...well..you're not a penguin then. You simply do not fit the very definition or possess the definitive attribute. Nature has to do with both will AND ability. To say someone is a "natural" at something, means they are good at it without a lot of training, right? That would speak to their ability. Their will (drive or desire) to do it would be based on a lot of differing internal and external factors driving that. Right? So if our sin nature is still controlling us, and not the Spirit of God, then we might have the desire [will?] to stop sinning, but not the ability (back to Romans 5). Let me ask you this, how would you define the difference between man's desire for something, and his will?

The fact is sinning is against God's will and yet He calls us sinners which is why Christ died on the cross.


1 John 5:10
He that believeth in that Son of God, hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God, hath made him a liar, because he believed not the record, that God witnessed of that his Son.
So how could one not believe in God if not through free will?


The most beautiful part of this analogy is that "with God all things are possible": He can take a penguin-like creature, who cannot sing, and through His power make it sing more beautifully than all the others, thus making the creature by definition, a real penguin! I think that's a perfect example of God taking a reprobate sinner, and through the Blood of Christ, making him/her into a Child of God.
To obey is a free will choice
Romans 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the Gospel: for Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
 
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98cwitr

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Two points:

1. To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to call that which is purely good evil. A great example of this would be the Pharisees calling Christ's works evil, when they were actually done by the Spirit. I never have called God evil. Before you claim I am doing so, why don't you ask yourself: Who defines what is good: me, you, or God?

2. No, to obey is not a free will choice. If it were then works salvation would be true! To obey is a result of faith. And where does faith come from? God (Romans 12:3).
 
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Thursday

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Who would those people be? I don't think I've ever met any myself and don't remember any posts here on CF expressing that POV.

Calvinists. Calvinists think that man's free will somehow conflicts with God's sovereignty.
 
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Thursday

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yep there is much room for opinions when you read the bible but some people don't seem to realize that their own perceptions of God is based on their own conditions of their soul. it can become quite the burden to bare after a while because even natural reality is what it is and words and thoughts that describe it are a product of our brain. for instance when a tree falls in the forest it does not make a sound as sounds are something that humans or other things that can hear sound hear. the tree just makes vibrations when it falls. so the healthier the condition of the soul the more it will be able to properly understand.

John 3:6 (YLT)
that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

reality is far more than we can tell. simple truths of innocent children are the best things to hold to... such as to have faith that God orders all things in the best possible of ways. heaven is connected to the world and this adds even more complexity to the problems of this thread.


Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
 
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Albion

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Calvinists. Calvinists think that man's free will somehow conflicts with God's sovereignty.
Nope. Calvinists would be the Christians LEAST inclined to believe what you described in the post to which I replied..
 
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98cwitr

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From now on I will only respond to you using Scripture:

No you have presented why you think they cannot be. You have not given any conclusive evidence that your belief is correct.

Isaiah 44:24 [ Jerusalem to Be Inhabited ] “This is what the Lord says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the Lord, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,

Psalm 94:11 The Lord knows all human plans; he knows that they are futile.

So you have freewill to decide then. You can either obey or disobey the choice is yours and God lets you make your choice.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.

1 verse out of context immediately after the post where you tell me we have to be careful to read the Bible in context, your doing a great job.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

So God made bots did he? I thought script kiddies did that, how stupid could I be thinking that there are intelligent people out there who can create a bot to post responses on a forum or other social media. Bots must be God's creation and therefor his fault.
Wanna read up on AI? Why all these off topics?

Romans 9:17-22 New International Version (NIV)

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[a] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Never seen Happy Feet then huh? What is your definition of a human? What happens if someone doesn't fit your limited definition?
So you can't think of any circumstances at all where something has a certain nature but not the ability to fulfil it?
Now you are changing nature to natural ability.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

I knew you would go back to the singular again. One minute you make a common sense statement and then the next sentence goes back to your old discussion. You do remember you said there are a lot of INTERNAL and EXTERNAL factors don't you? Why have you grasped onto 1? People can stop sinning if they couldn't Christ himself wouldn't have said to the adulterous women "go from now on sin no more" John 8:1-11 NASB
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and [began] to teach them. 3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center [of the court], 4they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5"Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" 6They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him [be the] first to throw a stone at her." 8Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9When they heard it, they [began] to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center [of the court]. 10Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.]"
If Jesus knows we are incapable of not sinning he wouldn't have said that to her, instead he would've just said "go on try not to sin ok."

John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.”

1 Corinthians 15:34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

I'm still waiting for you to define sexuality.

Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.

The anology I gave was from Happy Feet not Pinochio. Is a human that cannot walk not human just because they cannot walk? Is a human with six digits on each hand not human because they have six digits on each hand. Your replies to my analogy indicates you have a very limited view as to what makes something what it is, if it doesn't fit your view of a penguin then its not a penguin. I just wonder how far you are willing to take things.

John 8:41-44 New International Version (NIV)

41 You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
 
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Jan001

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Yes but,...
Our free will has a fallen nature, so it is only free to make fallen nature choices until God imparts saving grace.
Ok,... your turn to "yes, but..."
lol

Because of Adam's sin, all his descendants inherited the inclination to do evil. We call this inclination to do evil "concupiscence".


The inclination to do evil is not the same thing as "being only free to make fallen nature choices until God imparts saving grace."

Every man and woman is given free will to choose to do good or evil. Since we are inclined to do evil, it is therefore more difficult for us to choose good instead of evil.



However, Rahab, an OT pagan, freely chooses to do good instead of evil. She is rewarded for her good deed. Joshua 2:1-6

Rabab, a pagan, receives saving grace after she freely chooses to do good.



And, Cornelius, a NT pagan, freely chooses to do good instead of evil. God rewards him for his holy fear of God and for his own good deeds.


Acts 10:1-6
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”
4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”
So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He will tell you what you must do.” nkjv

Cornelius, a non-Jew, receives saving grace after he freely chooses to do good.


Saving grace makes it easier for us to choose to do good rather than to do evil, but this saving grace that we Christians possess does not prevent us from choosing to do evil instead of good.

We Christians will be rewarded with eternal life if we continue until death to do good instead of evil.

If we Christians choose to sin against the Holy Spirit/God by doing evil things and if we do not repent before we die, we will be rewarded with the indignation and wrath of God.


Romans 2:5-9
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; nkjv
We will all be judged by our works. Our works prove whether we are righteous or unrighteous. We will be rewarded according to our works.
 
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Jan001

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Regarding the difference of having it or not.
Everything he does will affect the quality of that salvation. Remember there are rewards in heaven?
Entrance to heaven is not a reward, or grace is nothing.

The greatest reward a person can receive is eternal life.


1 Timothy 6:18-20
Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life. nkjv

 
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98cwitr

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We will all be judged by our works. Our works prove whether we are righteous or unrighteous. We will be rewarded according to our works.

And what brings about good works? Faith, right? And where does that come from?
 
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Jan001

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No person is saved by ANY of their own works.
The only work that ever saved anyone was the work Jesus did on the cross.

Jesus saves us, but we continue in His salvation by our faith/good works.

To continue in faith/belief in Jesus, we must do what Jesus commanded us to do until we die. If we continue to do as Jesus commands us to do until we die, He will then reward us with eternal life. Jesus commands us to keep His commandments. 1 John 2:3-4, Revelation 14:12

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. nkjv

Revelation 2:23
I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. nkjv

Revelation 3:1-3
“.......
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name [Christian] that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. nkjv
Please note that eternal life for the Christian is conditional. It depends upon a person's works whether he will inherit eternal life OR inherit indignation and wrath.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. nkjv


 
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Albion

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Please note that eternal life for the Christian is conditional. It depends upon a person's works whether he will inherit eternal life OR inherit indignation and wrath.
You seem to miss the point that whatever it is that Good Works produce, you can't do any of them without Faith.
 
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Jan001

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There are several Christians pointing out the biblical truth you choose to ignore in favor of your church doctrine.

The Bible was written by Catholic Christians using the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is their Book. God also gave these Catholic writers the authority to infallibly interpret their own Scriptures. The Holy Spirit also inspired the early Catholic Christian Fathers to infallibly determine their own Canons of Scripture.

No one can give himself authority to do any of these things. These things were decided long ago and they cannot possibly be changed. Truth does not and cannot change.

I am Catholic because I agree with their doctrines and their own interpretations of their own Scriptures.
 
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Albion

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The Bible was written by Catholic Christians using the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is their Book. God also gave these Catholic writers the authority to infallibly interpret their own Scriptures.
No, he didn't. At least we have no reason to think he did.
 
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Jan001

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There is nothing in that verse about Moses law and it is you claiming something that is just not found in the verse I quoted? Do you comprehend the definition of "gift" because if you did you's then know a "gift" is a free will offering both in the OT and the NT.

What "law" do you think Paul is speaking of if not Moses' Law?

Regardless, it is Jesus alone who saves us when we first repent and believe and therefore no good work/deed of our own could ever have atoned for Adam's sin. Only Jesus Christ could atone for Adam's sin. Only a Person who is both God and Man could ever atone for Adam's sin and thereby repair the relationship between God and man. Titus 3:5


Gifts, including the gift of salvation, can be rejected at any time.

Christians who deliberately and grievously sin after they are saved are rejecting and profaning the blood of Jesus which saved them and so they are no longer saved. These evil Christians have rejected/denied Jesus by their own deeds/works.


By committing grievous sins, they denied/rejected Jesus' gift. Unless they repent of their grievous sins before death, they will receive vengeance from God instead of the eternal life which they had been expecting.

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. nkjv


Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their deeds; they are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good deed. nkjv

Matthew 10:33
but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. nkjv

When they are judged, the evil Christians will be surprised to hear what Jesus has to say to them. However, it will be too late for them to repent of their evil deeds and so they will reap what they sowed.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv


Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. rsv



 
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