Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[mikpat]

Why would God create humans in order to juggle them around into those predestined and those who are not— doesn't make any sense. The only sensible part of God's creation rests in His generosity to share. But to attain this reward we must earn it and not sit around and wonder if we are picked or not……..one would feel like puppet……

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Why would God create humans in order to juggle them around into those predestined and those who are not— doesn't make any sense. The only sensible part of God's creation rests in His generosity to share. But to attain this reward we must earn it and not sit around and wonder if we are picked or not……..one would feel like puppet……

How does one earn a free gift?

Ephesians 2:7-91599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
7 That he might show in the ages to come the exceeding riches of his grace through his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast himself.

 

[98cwitr]

Puppets is an apt word. The problem is you are thinking with human logic even your example here shows this.

I don't see an elephant on the table. God does what God does I do not have a right to question his reasons, that has already been explained to you but you just keep going on and on like a broken record.

Yes, when you use the word everything it must include everything.

Your question has been directly acknowledged. I gave 2 references to scripture why I will not answer it in the way you want me to. If you have a problem with that it is your problem not mine. The next problem is you keep harping on about it. I went shopping yesterday and there was a young mother with her children. At the very front of the store is chocolates and the kids wanted some, she said no. They kept harping on about it all the way around the shop. By the end the kids were crying because she stuck to her guns. Guess what, I'm sticking to my guns. You can either accept the answer you have been given and stop harping on about it or you can be like the kids I saw yesterday and end up getting very upset that things are not going the way you want. The choice is yours.

The choice isn't mine...the choice is God's. If everything means everything, using the logic that I don't have and yet has been presented to me, then I might as well include square circles and solid liquid.

 

[keltoi]

The choice isn't mine...the choice is God's. If everything means everything, using the logic that I don't have and yet has been presented to me, then I might as well include square circles and solid liquid.

The choice is yours, God is not making you behave the way you are behaving. Stop blaming God. Square circles is fiction solid liquid is reality, you have heard of ice haven't you?
I wonder can I block a mod?

 

[Patmos]

Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

In another thread I was told this: (My addition are in blue)

"At the end of the day, all this shows is that you cannot stand the idea that God truly is Sovereign, even over your decisions, (Is this because God predestined this ?) and that He is directing things toward a sure end, using your very decisions, and the decisions of billions of others to bring about that which He foreordained and predestined before the world was formed. The idea that you or anyone is "autonomous" is laughable. No one is a "puppet", but you are not free to do as you will, away from and apart from His oversight and direction.
( Not a puppet but everything is predestined/foreordained. How is this not a puppet show ?)

God is firmly and totally in control, and you ultimately will do exactly as He has ordained that you do, and you will do so willingly and with no thought or indication of any sort of coercion or force (because there is none), because you will act and do as He has foreseen (Sounds like Arminan belief - OK) you to do and He has already incorporated your so-called "free will" actions into His unfolding Plan. God doesn't have to force anyone to do anything, because He is in control of the circumstances surrounding your decisions, and the decisions of those around you, and of any and everyone whose decisions will impact and affect you. He knows what your choices are, what your preferences are, what you are likely to do, what you probably would do, and therefore exactly what you will do in any given situation and scenario, with an accuracy which you cannot even fathom.

Bottom line, God is totally and completely in control, down to the smallest detail, and you are doing exactly what He has foreordained that you do. Try as you might, you cannot escape it." (Only if we are predestinated to try it seems)

To be fair, the poster often says he is not a Calvinist. Having read this several times my conclusion is that the writer holds to determinism, then no he does not, then...

The charge "you cannot stand the idea that God truly is Sovereign" though COMPLETELY WRONG is a puzzle. If some one holds to predestination/foreordination of ALL things then why is he carping over what God himself as done ?

 

[Jan001]

God wants all kinds of men to be saved, not just Israel.
Men choose what is in their nature to choose - good or evil.
God chooses (elects) to be graceful and have mercy on a remnant.

A statement wherein all mankind actually does mean each and every human individual, would be : All mankind sufferers the consequence of Adam's sin.

Yes, God wants all men/mankind to be saved.
Yes, all mankind suffers the consequences of Adam's sin.
But, every person is given the free will to choose good or evil.
Since Jesus' death, the Israelites who chose/choose to believe in Jesus Christ are the remnant Israelites who were prophesied to be given mercy.

Jesus Christ has mercy on every person who chooses to serve Him. Makes no difference what tribe or nation he is from.

Acts 10:34-35
And Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. rsv​

 

[Jan001]

Nice try but you ignore that last verse I posted which is why all you excuses above are meaningless.

John 10 : 28-29
28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of mine hand.
29 My Father which gave them me, is greater than all, and none is able to take them out of my Father’s hand.

Before the foundation of the world, God put into His hand only the people who He foreknew to be still faithful to Him at the time of their death.

God did not put into His hand the people who never believed in Him. God did not put into His hand the people who only believed/obeyed for a while. God did not put into His hand the people who neglected to produce good fruit.

Before the foundation of the world, God put into His hand only the people who He knew were faithful to Him until they died.

The fact is Christ died for our sins past, present and future. Or do you not comprehend Christ died for ALL of our sins?

1 Corinthians 15:2-41599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
2 And whereby ye are saved, if ye keep in memory, after what manner I preached it unto you, except ye have believed in vain.
3 For first of all, I delivered unto you that which I received, how that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures,

1 Peter 2:241599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his body on the tree, that we being dead to sin, should live in righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Peter 3:181599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, and was put to death concerning the flesh, but was quickened by the spirit.

So which sins didn't Christ die for?

Christ died for all our sins that He might bring us to God. Jesus Christ forgives all our sins when we first believe and become saved. But we are commanded to live in righteousness until death if we want to be approved to inherit eternal life.

1 Peter 2:241599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his body on the tree, that we being dead to sin, should live in righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.​

Should is a command, not a suggestion.

What happens to Christians who choose to sin after Jesus saves them?

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” rsv
​

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross does not continue to save the sinful Christian. These sinful Christians rejected Jesus Christ, profaned His blood sacrifice, and outraged the Spirit of Grace. Unless these evil Christians repent of their sins and do righteousness until they die, they will not be approved to inherit/enter eternal life.

 

[Jan001]

Interpreters fall into two categories: those who seek to interpret the passage objectively with respect for the original meaning of the authors, and those who have an agenda. I have no agenda how about you?

I have no agenda except to seek and know truth.

 

[Jan001]

How does one earn a free gift?

Ephesians 2:7-91599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
7 That he might show in the ages to come the exceeding riches of his grace through his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God,
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast himself.

Paul is writing about the works of the Law of Moses. No person is saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[Jan001]

The choice isn't mine...the choice is God's. If everything means everything, using the logic that I don't have and yet has been presented to me, then I might as well include square circles and solid liquid.

So you believe that you are one of God's chosen? And that nothing you do will make any difference at all regarding your salvation?

 

[Rick Otto]

Yes, God wants all men/mankind to be saved.
Yes, all mankind suffers the consequences of Adam's sin.
But, every person is given the free will to choose good or evil.
Since Jesus' death, the Israelites who chose/choose to believe in Jesus Christ are the remnant Israelites who were prophesied to be given mercy.

Jesus Christ has mercy on every person who chooses to serve Him. Makes no difference what tribe or nation he is from.

Acts 10:34-35
And Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. rsv​

Yes but,...
Our free will has a fallen nature, so it is only free to make fallen nature choices until God imparts saving grace.
Ok,... your turn to "yes, but..."
lol

 

[Rick Otto]

So you believe that you are one of God's chosen? And that nothing you do will make any difference at all regarding your salvation?

Regarding the difference of having it or not.
Everything he does will affect the quality of that salvation. Remember there are rewards in heaven?
Entrance to heaven is not a reward, or grace is nothing.

 

[Rick Otto]

Paul is writing about the works of the Law of Moses. No person is saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

No person is saved by ANY of their own works.
The only work that ever saved anyone was the work Jesus did on the cross.

 

[Rick Otto]

I have no agenda except to seek and know truth.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

I have no agenda except to seek and know truth.

There are several Christians pointing out the biblical truth you choose to ignore in favor of your church doctrine.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Paul is writing about the works of the Law of Moses. No person is saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

There is nothing in that verse about Moses law and it is you claiming something that is just not found in the verse I quoted? Do you comprehend the definition of "gift" because if you did you's then know a "gift" is a free will offering both in the OT and the NT.

 

[98cwitr]

The choice is yours, God is not making you behave the way you are behaving. Stop blaming God. Square circles is fiction solid liquid is reality, you have heard of ice haven't you?
I wonder can I block a mod?

Just as square circles are fiction because they are a logical contradiction, so is human free will a contradiction to the attributes of God. Liquid h2o is called water. Solid h2o is called ice. See the difference? I've already said I don't blame God. I think you're implying though that if you believed as I did, then you would blame God...and I could understand why mean Armenians would do so...but I don't see it that way. God gave me and you a heart and a nature...did He not? Are we not governed by said nature? Here's the proof: Why don't you simply will yourself to stop sinning, if your will is actually free?

 

[98cwitr]

So you believe that you are one of God's chosen? And that nothing you do will make any difference at all regarding your salvation?

I believe that God's chosen are the elect. I believe that some are not chosen and they are called the non-elect. The elect know His voice, and the non-elect do not. The elect hear the Word and believe, the non-elect hear and are confused. I believe Christ knows the elect, but the non-elect He "never knew." I believe that the elect are Children of God, and that the non-elect are children of the devil. The elect repent, the non-elect do not. To say the non-elect could ever become the elect is to:

1. Deny the doctrine of election
2. Deny either God's Omniscience or to deny that He is the Creator
3. Promote works salvation

I've got Scripture to back up every one of those beliefs.

 

[keltoi]

Just as square circles are fiction because they are a logical contradiction, so is human free will a contradiction to the attributes of God.

Why is freewill a contradiction to the attributes of God? Why are you limiting God? You do understand the concept of all powerful don't you?

Liquid h2o is called water. Solid h2o is called ice. See the difference?

H2O which is water can be a vapour, a fluid substance (which is often called liquid), or a gas. When does H2O stop being any of these?

I've already said I don't blame God.

What you say you say doesn't always agree with what you type. When you say we don't have freewill or that God created Evil or that Adam and Eve were created by God with a nature that enabled them to Sin the logical conclusion is that God is the cause of it. He is the almighty, he is Omnipotent, we cannot go against his will, so he is the cause of the problem. That is the logical conclusion of your posts.

I think you're implying though that if you believed as I did, then you would blame God...and I could understand why mean Armenians would do so...but I don't see it that way.

I'm not implying anything about myself at all. I am saying your posts are written in such a way that the only possible outcome is that God is at fault and is the problem with creation.

Do I need to link to those verses again? Nah I'll just type it up "Your ways are not God's ways, your thoughts are not God's thoughts". Do you see the difference?

I fail to see why you bring up mean Armenians.

God gave me and you a heart and a nature...did He not? Are we not governed by said nature?

I don't know about the other 7 odd billion people on this blue ball we call earth but I am not governed by "a nature", I am certainly influenced by it but it does not govern me. If it did I would be a robot or a puppet.

Here's the proof: Why don't you simply will yourself to stop sinning, if your will is actually free?

That is not proof, that is a hypothetical created by western thought patterns. In answer your flawed proof being willing to do something and being able to do it are 2 different things. I can will myself to do anything, whether it works or not is a different matter. Do you see the difference?

 

[98cwitr]

Why is freewill a contradiction to the attributes of God? Why are you limiting God? You do understand the concept of all powerful don't you?

At least I think I do I'm not limiting God...I'm avoiding contradictions.

H2O which is water can be a vapour, a fluid substance (which is often called liquid), or a gas. When does H2O stop being any of these?

h2o forms:
gas = steam
liquid = water
solid = ice

To avoid disambiguation resulting in a contradiction, h2o in liquid form (water) is not a solid. See how easy words are twisted when we play with them? I said that "you cannot have a liquid solid (two very finite states of matter), and your example definitely found a way to twist them. We need to be careful about doing this when we read Scripture, and read it in it's full context.

The analogy I draw to this (and to remain on topic) is that your free will is not free at all. Sure, you have a will, but it's certainly not free in any literal sense.

What you say you say doesn't always agree with what you type. When you say we don't have freewill or that God created Evil or that Adam and Eve were created by God with a nature that enabled them to Sin the logical conclusion is that God is the cause of it. He is the almighty, he is Omnipotent, we cannot go against his will, so he is the cause of the problem. That is the logical conclusion of your posts.

I don't say that...you say that. I don't see a problem. If you see a problem, present it.

I'm not implying anything about myself at all. I am saying your posts are written in such a way that the only possible outcome is that God is at fault and is the problem with creation.

Do I need to link to those verses again? Nah I'll just type it up "Your ways are not God's ways, your thoughts are not God's thoughts". Do you see the difference?

I fail to see why you bring up mean Armenians.

Okay...glad we could clear that up. Again....what's the problem?

I don't know about the other 7 odd billion people on this blue ball we call earth but I am not governed by "a nature", I am certainly influenced by it but it does not govern me. If it did I would be a robot or a puppet.

I will prove to you that you're governed by your nature: Change your sexuality right now. Just flip-flop it. You can't.

That is not proof, that is a hypothetical created by western thought patterns. In answer your flawed proof being willing to do something and being able to do it are 2 different
things. I can will myself to do anything, whether it works or not is a different matter. Do you see the difference?

Why wouldn't it work in this case? Do other people cause you to sin? Or are you saying you're simply unwilling to stop sinning?