Longevity, Tooth Wear, and Genesis

[lesliedellow]

Longevity claims are not uncommon among ancient legends. So far, forensic anthropology has not confirmed that humans once lived very long lives. To the contrary, ancient lives were quite short.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity_myths#Ancient_extreme_longevity_claims

That all depends what you mean by ancient. In New Testament Times, the lifespans of people we actually know about seem not to have been wildly different from those of today. Whoever wrote psalm 90 seems to have been of the same opinion. It may be that the average was artificially low because of high infant mortality.

 

[lesliedellow]

Jolly good. Did they have a word for 'literally true'?

Why should they have? You wouldn't be thinking that I regard the genealogies as literally true, would you?

 

[Steve Petersen]

That all depends what you mean by ancient. In New Testament Times, the lifespans of people we actually know about seem not to have been wildly different from those of today. Whoever wrote psalm 90 seems to have been of the same opinion. It may be that the average was artificially low because of high infant mortality.

I get that. I read a while back that in the Roman empire of Jesus day, if you lived past the age of 15, you could expect to live to an average age of 52.

 

[Chris B]

In the Bronze Age, (about 3000 BCE to 1200 BCE), average age at death was about 26.

Just to say it's rarely a god idea to take an average from data with two maxima.
In many countries with a poor *average* life expectancy this is very much down to very high fatality rates for neonates and infants. *If* you survive your young childhood, average life expectancy turns out to be relatively good.
An average life expectancy of 26 does not mean you'd find lots of worn-out and feeble 25 year-olds.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Just to say it's rarely a god idea to take an average from data with two maxima.
In many countries with a poor *average* life expectancy this is very much down to very high fatality rates for neonates and infants. *If* you survive your young childhood, average life expectancy turns out to be relatively good.
An average life expectancy of 26 does not mean you'd find lots of worn-out and feeble 25 year-olds.

See post 63.

 

[lesliedellow]

I get that. I read a while back that in the Roman empire of Jesus day, if you lived past the age of 15, you could expect to live to an average age of 52.

Well Philo made it to 75, Josephus to 63, Tiberius to 79 and Herod the Great to 70. Also, we have this from psalm 90:

"The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away."

 

[Steve Petersen]

Well Philo made it to 75, Josephus to 63, Tiberius to 79 and Herod the Great to 70. Also, we have this from psalm 90:

"The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away."

Longevity is probably greater among the well-to-do.

 

[lesliedellow]

Longevity is probably greater among the well-to-do.

Why should it be? Microorganisms are no respecter of wealth, and physicians in those days would probably have shortened life, rather than extended it.

 

[Chris B]

See post 63.

Got it.
We are not alone, and you got to type first.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Why should it be? Microorganisms are no respecter of wealth, and physicians in those days would probably have shortened life, rather than extended it.

As I understand it, calories.

 

[Chris B]

Why should it be? Microorganisms are no respecter of wealth, and physicians in those days would probably have shortened life, rather than extended it.

Clean water and clean air for one.
The expensive parts of any town historically tend to be upwind, and upstream if there is a river.
Both being in the same direction in London, the West End and the East End have traditionally had very different characters.

Space, for another: more people crammed together make for the more efficient transmission of both contagious and air-born disease. Poor diet leading to general poor immune systems would compound that, apart from direct deficiency diseases such as rickets.
In recruiting for the Boer War it was found that between 40% and 80% of men (by region) were found unfit for military service, which triggered major concern about public health.

 

[pat34lee]

Now, anthropologists can use tooth wear as a method of determining someone's age at death to with about a 95% confidence level. http://var-and-evo.biol.uni.torun.pl/03_8.pdf

SO, if people lived a lot longer for 500 to 1000 years after the Flood, shouldn't that be apparent by their teeth? Why has this not been observed?

Before the flood, you are looking at different genetics. Their
teeth and bodies were made to survive 1000 years. Ours are not.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Before the flood, you are looking at different genetics. Their
teeth and bodies were made to survive 1000 years. Ours are not.

Your scientific evidence for this please.

 

[JackRT]

It is estimated that at first European contact the average life expectancy of North American Indians was about 25 for reasons already mentioned. When Samuel de Champlain established Port Royale in present day Nova Scotia in 1604 he met an old Indian chieftain who remembered the visit of Jean Cabot many decades earlier. Champlain estimated that he was over 100 years old. They certainly had the capacity to live what we think of as a normal lifespan, not that 100 is normal at any time.

 

[lasthero]

Before the flood, you are looking at different genetics. Their
teeth and bodies were made to survive 1000 years. Ours are not.

The problem, of course, is that we have bones of people from all sorts of different ages, and we've yet to find any indication that our species ever had any different genetics, or that their bodies were in any way different. There's nothing to suggest that humans were made differently in the past. We have the bones. We have the DNA. We know this.

 

[pat34lee]

Your scientific evidence for this please.

Adam was not created with a determined lifespan. Once
he sinned though, both he, Eve and their children were
limited to 1000 years. As they were still reproducing at
several hundred years of age, I would think the rest of
their bodies were also able to stand up to the years.

In Genesis 6:3, God said he would make man's lifespan
shorten, to about 120 years. In chapter 11, you start to
see this after the flood. In only a few generations, it had
already dropped below 300 years.

 

[pat34lee]

The problem, of course, is that we have bones of people from all sorts of different ages, and we've yet to find any indication that our species ever had any different genetics, or that their bodies were in any way different. There's nothing to suggest that humans were made differently in the past. We have the bones. We have the DNA. We know this.

If we have any pre-flood human bones, likely there is
no way to check the DNA in them. If, as I suspect, the
pre-flood men were giants, there is no way scientists
would acknowledge them, much less leave them for
study by the public.

 

[pat34lee]

Why should it be? Microorganisms are no respecter of wealth, and physicians in those days would probably have shortened life, rather than extended it.

Generally, the food that the rich ate would not have
helped them live longer. Fatty, greasy and sugary was
food only they could afford. One thing that may have
helped though: silver tableware. As long as it wasn't
soldered together with lead.

 

[JackRT]

If we have any pre-flood human bones, likely there is
no way to check the DNA in them. If, as I suspect, the
pre-flood men were giants, there is no way scientists
would acknowledge them, much less leave them for
study by the public.

Scientists search for the truth no matter where the trail leads. I have been a scientist for most of my adult life and I have witnessed this openness, I have also been a Christian for somewhat longer and I regret that I have not witnessed this openness among many Christians.

 

[4x4toy]

How long have false teeth been around ?