Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[keltoi]

It has everything to do with both the Tree and the human condition! How is that not clear?

The only thing that is clear is that you believe God is the cause of evil and the mess creation is in. You don't want to accept that the things you do you do of your own freewill. Your sin is your sin but you are saying God predestined you to sin. I do not accept your belief, infact I reject it outright.

Nothing determines its own usage; plants nor animals nor humans. God does. The Scripture proves it.

Yep here again you are blaming God. I see no further use discussing this topic with a person who 1, blames God for the things he does, 2. keeps harping on at others for not answering a question the way he wants it answered.
Have a blessed day.

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE="keltoi, post: 69597186, member: 174994"]The only thing that is clear is that you believe God is the cause of evil and the mess creation is in. You don't want to accept that the things you do you do of your own freewill. Your sin is your sin but you are saying God predestined you to sin. I do not accept your belief, infact I reject it outright.

That's pretty harsh.
No, not the cause of, the creator of. You're inability to distinguish the the two and the significance thereof is not anyone else's problem.

 

[Rick Otto]

It has everything to do with both the Tree and the human condition! How is that not clear?

Nothing determines its own usage; plants nor animals nor humans. God does. The Scripture proves it.

Some people just aren't comfortable with God being almighty.
Remove that comfort at your own peril.
What use is righteousness if I can't take credit for it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

It makes sense because most of the things of the physical world that we deal with every day--family and work problems, for example--are within the scope of our God-given intellectual abilities. But what can we know through experience or reasoning about God becoming Man and dying on the Cross, rising again to triumph over death, and making possible the reconciliation of sinful mankind with the Creator? Well, nothing.

That is why this particular choice--the most important one that there is--has to be within God's own decision making ability. And as for the Biblical testimony, we've already presented enough Bible passages that testify to predestination that asking about the Scriptural evidence shouldn't be a question any longer.

Well that disagrees with the Bible. Notice the last phrase.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

So I take it you do not believe the Bible is inerrant.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Some people just aren't comfortable with God being almighty.
Remove that comfort at your own peril.
What use is righteousness if I can't take credit for it?

Oh that's funny. Lol.

We live for our Lord but do not believe He is almighty. That makes no sense

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's pretty harsh.
No, not the cause of, the creator of. You're inability to distinguish the the two and the significance thereof is not anyone else's problem.

I like the way you cherry-pick scripture. It doesn't do much for learning and theology but I can see why it would be to your advantage psychologically to do it.

No person that wasn't saved would back predestination.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Some people just aren't comfortable with God being almighty.
Remove that comfort at your own peril.
What use is righteousness if I can't take credit for it?

Is the rest of your family elect, chosen?

 

[Albion]

Well that disagrees with the Bible. Notice the last phrase.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

So I take it you do not believe the Bible is inerrant.

It would help the discussion, if you want to have an exchange of ideas, not to accuse the other person of not believing the Bible, OK?

You didn't understand the point here, so I'll just let it go rather than explain it yet one more time..

 

[Thursday]

Some people just aren't comfortable with God being almighty.
Remove that comfort at your own peril.
What use is righteousness if I can't take credit for it?

Some people don't think God is almighty enough to create human beings with the ability to choose and love.

 

[Albion]

Some people don't think God is almighty enough to create human beings with the ability to choose and love.

Who would those people be? I don't think I've ever met any myself and don't remember any posts here on CF expressing that POV.

 

[Albion]

No person that wasn't saved would back predestination.

I can't find any reason to think that this notion makes sense. Reformed churches are full of people who believe in predestination, and it is absolutely certain that they are not all convinced that they are among the Elect.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I can't find any reason to think that this notion makes sense. Reformed churches are full of people who believe in predestination, and it is absolutely certain that they are not all convinced that they are among the Elect.

I've never met one. Sounds like folly to me. Have sources to show this?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Who would those people be? I don't think I've ever met any myself and don't remember any posts here on CF expressing that POV.

There are plenty on CF who don't think we have the power to choose. Really?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Some people don't think God is almighty enough to create human beings with the ability to choose and love.

They think God is controlling. Not that God is in control.

We give God the Almighty title because we believe He has all might. Controlling is what imperfect people do who are not just and righteous.

 

[Albion]

I've never met one. Sounds like folly to me. Have sources to show this?

You made the claim. Got any sources that show us that no one can believe in predestination without thinking he's among the Elect?

 

[Jan001]

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Let's look at other Scripture versions:

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government will be upon his shoulder,
and his name will be called
“Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” rsv

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. nkjv
​

Please note that "The" is missing from the other translations.

Here is a direct translation from a Greek Study Bible:

http://studybible.info/interlinear/Isaiah 9:6.

There is no "The" in any of them.


Isaiah 9:6 simply prophesies that the Son of God will be an everlasting father to His children on earth.

Jesus is the spiritual father of His children in the faith.

Mark 10:24
And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! rsv​

Abraham is also a spiritual father to all his children in the faith.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all rsv

Galatians 3:7
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
​

Paul is also a spiritual father to his children in the faith.

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. rsv
​

John is also a spiritual father to his children in the faith.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous. rsv

​

There is one God kind. There are three divine Persons in this one God kind.
There is only one God, but He is three different Persons.

John 6:32
Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. rsv

John 6:31-35
Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. rsv
​

Jesus' Father in heaven sent Jesus to earth to give life to the world. Jesus did not send himself to earth. Jesus is not His own Father.

​

There is one mankind, but there are both male and female persons in this one mankind.

One family is composed of one father, one mother, and one or more children.

There is one canidae family, but there are many different animals belonging to this one canine family. Dogs are part of this large taxonomic family called Canidae, which also includes wolves, coyotes, foxes and jackals. Members are called canids.

One God, but three distinct Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, rsv​

​

 

[98cwitr]

The only thing that is clear is that you believe God is the cause of evil and the mess creation is in. You don't want to accept that the things you do you do of your own freewill. Your sin is your sin but you are saying God predestined you to sin. I do not accept your belief, infact I reject it outright.

And yet Paul said:

Romans 7:20
Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Oh silly Paul! Take some responsibility man!

For your stance to be remotely logical, you will need to deny that God is either a) Omniscient; or b) The Creator. Which will it be?

Yep here again you are blaming God. I see no further use discussing this topic with a person who 1, blames God for the things he does, 2. keeps harping on at others for not answering a question the way he wants it answered.
Have a blessed day.

1. I don't blame God and never said that. He is the Omniscient Creator that brought EVERYTHING into being. That is what I have said in summary.

2. Don't care if it's the way I want or not, I just want them to answer it directly without sidestepping it for 4 pages.

 

[Jan001]

Maybe they didn't want to die. You know Jesus wasn't popular. I think they saw the writing on the wall. They had to give it all and loose it all. I'm sure some were not willing.

We take for granted that they did not believe but they could have been scared.

If they deny their faith in Jesus whether they are scared or not, Jesus will also deny that He knows them. If Jesus denies that He knows them, He will also not approve them worthy to enter/inherit eternal life.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. nkjv

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. nkjv

​

You know for a fact they are in hell?

Scripture states that they stopped following Him. This means that they did not believe what Jesus said. They thought Jesus was a liar and so this actually makes themselves the liars.

Scripture states that all liars are condemned.

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” rsv
​

Unless these people repented of their sin of disbelief before they died, they are indeed in hell.

 

[Jan001]

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/45.htm

RE: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
​

God cannot and does not directly create evil. God creates humans and it is the humans who create the evil. Because God allows humans to do evil, the Israelites attribute the creation of evil to Him. This is simply a Semitic manner of speaking/writing. It is not meant to be literal. God is sovereign, but He personally cannot do evil nor tempt any person to do evil. God does not force any person to do evil. God is Good.

James 1:13
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. nkjv

3 John 1:11
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God. nkjv

Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. nkjv

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. nkjv
​

Other examples of Semitic speaking/writing:

Malachi 1:3
But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.” nkjv

Romans 9:13
As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” nkjv

1 Timothy 4:4
For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; nkjv
​

God did not literally hate Esau. God loves every person He creates. Instead God preferred Jacob instead of Esau to be the father of the Israelites. These verses about Esau were written in a Semitic manner using hyperbole/exaggeration to make the strong point that Jacob was chosen instead of his brother Esau.

Luke 14:26
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. nkjv
​

Jesus does not want us to hate our parents, spouses, children, and siblings. Instead, Jesus wants to be the foremost important person in our lives. This verse is a Semitic manner of speaking. It is not meant to be literal. It is hyperbole/exaggeration being used to make a strong point.

 

[Jan001]

Nice attitude, but it kind of sounds like it all comes down to what we want, as if we decide what we want.
I thought that no one wants to believe until saving grace is dispensed
specifically to each.

Every person is given a measure of grace because God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. He gives to each person enough grace to believe when he hears about God/Jesus. The person can choose to believe and follow or not.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. nkjv​

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