What is the greatest evidence against the theory of evolution...?

[juvenissun]

But this is demonstrably not true. They can, and do, teach the things to other chimps which we taught to them. There was an example posted in this very thread of it happening...sign language.

So, how many chimps use sign language today? 2?
That is how smart they are.

 

[juvenissun]

Most of the intelligence being discussed is based on accumulated knowledge that has been passed down. If you'd been brought up by apes I expect you'd be poking in holes with a stick to get at grubs rather than lighting fires.... Juvie of the Apes.

Instead, I might chop down the tree and get the ant nest. And I would easily become the king of the chimp kingdom.

 

[Herman Hedning]

You mean the ant eating? Yes, I can believe that.
Animals learned how to gather food from their parents.

Let me re-post it for you.

Kanzi, now 33, has been fully immersed in the human world, and the English language, since birth. Scientists who have studied Kanzi all his life say he possesses a vocabulary big enough to follow and contribute to simple conversations.

He has learned to ‘say’ about 500 words through the keyboard and understands about 3,000 of them. Equally importantly, he was the first primate who didn’t acquire language through direct training.

Instead, much like a human child, he picked it up simply by listening as researchers tried to teach his foster mother. (Teco is now doing the same by watching his father.)

Through a mixture of observation and encouragement, Kanzi has also picked up an astonishing set of manual skills.

He can cook, make knives out of stone and play the arcade game Pac-Man (he can get past the first round — a feat beyond many humans). He and his similarly talented late sister, Panbanisha, once even jammed with British rock star Peter Gabriel, playing along on a keyboard as the former Genesis man played a synthesizer.

The recent BBC series Monkey Planet has sparked renewed fascination in this great ape after it demonstrated a stunning example of his capabilities.

Kanzi was filmed breaking up kindling for a fire, deftly sliding open a box of matches, striking one against the box and then lighting his fire. He then carefully threaded marshmallows on to a stick, toasted and ate them.

From here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cabulary-My-lunch-worlds-cleverest-chimp.html

 

[juvenissun]

Let me re-post it for you.
From here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cabulary-My-lunch-worlds-cleverest-chimp.html

Some other research groups might even do better than that.
But, the point is: What chimp learned will NEVER become the culture of the chimp community. Their level of intelligence simply can not handle it.

I (we) know this without doing any experiment.

 

[Loudmouth]

A skill called technology should include at least a sequence of break-down processes. A one-step process in using material can be observed on the behavior of many animals.

That's exactly what we have. We have over a million years of tool development in humans, starting with very simple tools to very advanced tools.

 

[Loudmouth]

Yes, you mentioned an important character of real intelligence: the improvement of tools. This is completely absent in the animal kingdom in the past 4 billion years.

How is this a problem for evolution?

 

[Loudmouth]

Some other research groups might even do better than that.
But, the point is: What chimp learned will NEVER become the culture of the chimp community. Their level of intelligence simply can not handle it.

I (we) know this without doing any experiment.

So what if it doesn't become part of a chimp community? How does that disprove evolution?

 

[Loudmouth]

So, how many chimps use sign language today? 2?
That is how smart they are.

What if no other ape species can learn to use sign language? How does that disprove evolution?

 

[Herman Hedning]

Some other research groups might even do better than that.
But, the point is: What chimp learned will NEVER become the culture of the chimp community. Their level of intelligence simply can not handle it.

I (we) know this without doing any experiment.

Amazing! Your deep knowledge is just astounding. Are there many more things that you know without experimentation?

 

[PsychoSarah]

They are all humans.

hmm, these are human, really?

homo habilis,

Neanderthal on the right, modern human on the left.

Homo erectus on the left, modern human on the right.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I did not say easy. Any human, when desperate and have enough time, can learn how to raise fire by flint.

Not if they don't know what flint looks like. Or that it is even good for making a spark.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Some other research groups might even do better than that.
But, the point is: What chimp learned will NEVER become the culture of the chimp community. Their level of intelligence simply can not handle it.

I (we) know this without doing any experiment.

The moment you claim that we can just know stuff without even testing it is the moment you admit that the one making all the presumptions and is unwilling to actually learn anything is you.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Yes.

But for the record, I disagree with calling us a "species."

And I don't need science to tell me we are "a rather aggressive [species]".

James 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Fine, but we agree that humans are rather violent, especially once we "us versus them" another group. If we are willing to wipe out communities of humans because of minute differences, how willing do you suppose we would be to wipe out a non-human bipedal ape? You have to admit, a lot of species have went extinct because of us, even in the past century.

 

[AV1611VET]

Fine, but we agree that humans are rather violent, especially once we "us versus them" another group. If we are willing to wipe out communities of humans because of minute differences, how willing do you suppose we would be to wipe out a non-human bipedal ape? You have to admit, a lot of species have went extinct because of us, even in the past century.

No argument there!

 

[PsychoSarah]

No argument there!

That's why I tell juve it's not rocket science why animals with a similar body plan to ours don't exist anymore. We mistake them for rival human groups, and it's game over for them.

 

[juvenissun]

Amazing! Your deep knowledge is just astounding. Are there many more things that you know without experimentation?

In fact, quite a bit.
It is called theoretical understanding. It is the highest expression of intelligence.

 

[PsychoSarah]

So, how many chimps use sign language today? 2?
That is how smart they are.

i doubt there is a list of all of the non-humans that know sign language, but here's 6 http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/six-talking-apes-48085302/?no-ist . Personally, given how long we have been invested in this, I'd say it would be reasonable to think that after the 1970s, there were small groups of apes in multiple countries being taught sign language. I wouldn't be shocked if there were more than 50 alive today that are able to use it well enough to hold a conversation.

 

[Shemjaza]

To our time scale, it may be long. But to the time scale of evolution, it is almost like a blink of eyes.

It would be interesting to know the detail history of primitive tool improvement done by human. That would be a fascinating show of human intelligence. In the iron age, how did people turn the use of cast iron into the use of steel? How long was the time period? May be something like 2500 years?

Yes, you mentioned an important character of real intelligence: the improvement of tools. This is completely absent in the animal kingdom in the past 4 billion years.

You are defining intelligence as being like a human? It's the combination of the large brain and manipulator limbs that allowed us to develop so far. Dolphins have large brains and a reasonable intelligence, but they will never develop technology because they live in the water and lack hands. Raccoons have hand like paws and can move a little on their hind legs, but have tiny brains so are unlikely to develop like as as well.

It's an amazing trait, I'll give you that, but nothing about intelligence is outside the possibility of evolution. It only take a slight increase in intelligence to get us from the beasts, and more importantly we can see the progression in the fossils.

 

[46AND2]

In fact, quite a bit.
It is called theoretical understanding. It is the highest expression of intelligence.

The Dunning-Kruger is strong in this one.

 

[juvenissun]

i doubt there is a list of all of the non-humans that know sign language, but here's 6 http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/six-talking-apes-48085302/?no-ist . Personally, given how long we have been invested in this, I'd say it would be reasonable to think that after the 1970s, there were small groups of apes in multiple countries being taught sign language. I wouldn't be shocked if there were more than 50 alive today that are able to use it well enough to hold a conversation.

The problem is that after a chimp is taught on whatever, then that is the end of it. It can not be passed along to other chimps.

That is the vital sign of low intelligence.