Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[Rick Otto]

I'd love to see what section of scripture says that.

I thought we were interpreting, not simply quoting.

 

[keltoi]

I thought we were interpreting, not simply quoting.

Interpret what is written, not what you want to be written.
You and others appear to think you can "interpret" the Bible to suit your beliefs. It doesn't work like that, the Bible is God's Word. If your beliefs don't fit what is written, or you have to "interpret" it so it fits your beliefs, then your beliefs are, sadly, incorrect and need adjusting to fit what the Bible really says.

 

[Berean777]

Nice attitude, but it kind of sounds like it all comes down to what we want, as if we decide what we want.
I thought that no one wants to believe until saving grace is dispensed
specifically to each.

God wants to, but he does not operate by imposing his will, after all the war is for the hearts and minds and yes the once enemies must decide what they want, for it certainly comes down to them, whether they want the gift of salvation or not. God also has a sovereign will that enables him to allow individuals to be placed in real life scenarios, whereby he then presents a solution and again the decision is asked to be made by the individual. There are exceptions when we look at Acts 10, where Peter was forced to accept the Gentiles, but seldom will you see after the cross of Christ, God interfering with peoples choices, in a way that shows him making the decision for them. In today's society we as parents have discovered that we gain much more rapport and obedience from our children, when we give them a choice and allow them to take responsibility for the consequences of their choices and God does this so well, that we have picked this up from him.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Let's clarify. It would be 'because of' Adam and Eve as a result of sin entering into the world thanks to them. But it's not because of the Adam and Eve argument we were given a few posts back.

That argument held that they were created with free will, so it somehow follows that we have free will also. As an argument, that's not credible. Christianity teaches that we are fallen as a result of being children of the first humans. Therefore, Election may indeed apply to those of us who come later.

I don't understand how you can reach that conclusion. If God would let His perfect creation before the fall exercise free-will, your thought is after the fall he would not?

I'm not understanding how you feel that is sensible?

Did God let the Israelite's create and worship the golden calf? Did God letting David have Bethsheba's husband go into battle and put him on the front lines in battle because of his lust. That guy was never meant to come back and he didn't.

So. All throughout the Bible I see free-will.

So can you help me understand how you can feel the way you do. Because I'm not seeing it

 

[Hoghead1]

Jan 001,

The understanding of the Holy Trinity is a matter of faith, it is a supernatural mystery and requires grace from God to believe and perhaps reason out. It's one of those topics that we can only discuss ever so slightly, polite exchanges. All you can do is explain your Catholic view and avoid arguing———usually a futile exchange.

Just a thought.

AMDG

Yes, it is generally said to be a mystery. However, I and other theologians don't fully buy that. I believe these so-called mysteries or paradoxes of the trinity actually represent muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers.

 

[keltoi]

Yes, it is generally said to be a mystery. However, I and other theologians don't fully buy that. I believe these so-called mysteries or paradoxes of the trinity actually represent muddled thinking on the part of the church fathers.

Could you expand further on this?

 

[Hoghead1]

I think the major problem in this debate is.

IF God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient how would God not know the past, present AND future. Do we believe that God is who He says He is? What do we believe. Let's quit calling it predestination and call it God KNOWS all.

The question is now, does He let us decide.

om·ni·pres·ent
ˌämnəˈpreznt/
adjective: omnipresent
(of God) present everywhere at the same time.
widely or constantly encountered; common or widespread.

om·nip·o·tent
ˌämˈnipəd(ə)nt/
adjective: omnipotent
1. (of a deity) having unlimited power; able to do anything.
synonyms: all-powerful, almighty, supreme, preeminent, most high;More

om·nis·cient
ämˈniSHənt/
adjective: omniscient
knowing everything.
"the story is told by an omniscient narrator"
synonyms: all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing

Is God Omnipotent?
This is, perhaps, the easiest of the three to answer: There is even a verse that, in the King James Version and New King James Version, uses this very word: “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!” (Revelation 19:6).

The Greek word translated as “Omnipotent” here is pantokrator, meaning “All-ruling” or (as it is more frequently translated) “Almighty.” When we say God is “Almighty,” we are stating our belief in His authority and rulership over all creation, and the Bible is firm in declaring this fact. Even though Satan is now the “god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4), it belongs to him only because Almighty God has granted it to Him: “And the devil said to Him, ‘All this authority [over all the kingdoms of this world] I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish’” (Luke 4:6).

It is God who ultimately reigns in the universe, and all legitimate authority must derive from Him. If we let Scripture tell us of God’s authority, we must agree that He has all authority to do all His pleasure (Isaiah 46:10–11), and to see to the fulfillment of His plans without fail. If we accept the Scriptural definition of “almighty”—and we must accept no other!—we can rightly call God omnipotent. Indeed, Christ says clearly that “with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).

However, if we were to insist that omnipotent meant God could do anything and everything at all, we would need to reject that description, because His word says He cannot! For example, God “cannot lie” (Titus 1:2), and He “cannot deny Himself” (2 Timothy 2:13). The Bible clearly shows that God cannot act contrary to His nature. But do these “cannots” mean He is not omnipotent—not almighty? Not if we let Scripture define its own terms!

There is no limit to the power of God. A search I did in the NKJV revealed that God was referred to as "Almighty" 48 times in the Hebrew scriptures and 9 times in the Greek scriptures, a total of 57 mentions in the Holy Bible. This is a point that God wants humankind to clearly understand.

The Bible is clear that God is omnipotent. Notice the following:

5 For I know that the Lord is great,
And our Lord is above all gods.
6 Whatever the Lord pleases He does,
In heaven and in earth,
In the seas and in all deep places.
7 He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries. (Psalms 135:5-7)

5 Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket,
And are counted as the small dust on the scales;
Look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.
16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn,
Nor its beasts sufficient for a burnt offering.
17 All nations before Him are as nothing,
And they are counted by Him less than nothing and worthless.

18 To whom then will you liken God?
Or what likeness will you compare to Him? (Isaiah 40:15-18)

The Three 'O's article continued with:

Is God Omnipresent?
Correctly understood, the question of God’s omnipotence has historically caused little controversy. The term omnipresent, however, has caused more trouble. Basically, being omnipresent means being present everywhere at the same time. Can this term be applied to God? What does Scripture tell us?

Ask yourself: is there any physical location in this universe where we can hide from the presence of God? The answer, according to Scripture, is a resounding “No!” In fact, King David posed this question directly, asking: “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell [the grave], behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me” (Psalm 139:7–10).

David answers the question beautifully: it is futile to search for a place to hide from the presence of God (and it is unwise to try—just ask Jonah!). In this sense, God’s infallible word shows that He is omnipresent—within His vast creation, there is no place where you can hide from His presence.

Still, we must be careful with our terms! Many have tried to twist God’s omnipresence to portray Him as some kind of shapeless “blob”—even though the Bible clearly shows that God has a body and a shape—and it is a shape like ours! Consider Genesis 1:26, which tells us that man is made in God’s image and likeness—words that do convey a sense of shape. We do not use human philosophies to avoid the clear statements of Scripture! Consider, as well, the passage in which God says unambiguously that He has a face, a hand and a back (Exodus 33:18–23)! The only way to understand this passage from Exodus without making a mockery of God’s word is to agree that God has a shape and a body!

So, how is God “everywhere”? We already read the answer, in David’s words: “Where can I go from your Spirit?” (Psalm 139:7). It is by their Spirit that the Father and the glorified Christ have complete access to their creation! Through His Spirit, God’s reach extends to every nook and cranny of the universe, and there is—as David wrote—no place to flee from His presence. Yet He still retains a shape—a body—ruling in glory from His throne in heaven. It is from there that “His eyes behold” the sons of men (Psalm 11:4).

We must also note that although God is omnipresent through His Spirit, we can become separated from Him. In fact, we are warned, “your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear” (Isaiah 59:2). Jesus Christ experienced this horrible separation during His crucifixion, when on our behalf He took upon Himself the full penalty of our sins (cf. Mark 15:34; Isaiah 53:4–5).

The world’s scholars and theologians often have a wrong idea about God’s omnipresence. But if we let God’s flawless word teach us what God’s omnipresence truly means, our footing is made sure.

God is everywhere, in the known, and unknown universe. And the Spirit of God is infinite.

The article continued with:

Is God Omniscient?
Having considered God’s omnipotence and His omnipresence, we can address the most troublesome of the “Three ‘O’s”— His omniscience. Is God omniscient?

Philosophers and theologians have debated this question over the millennia. Were you to read what the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says about God’s omniscience, you would find more philosophical gobbledygook than you may have seen in your entire life. So, before we determine whether or not God is omniscient, we need to recognize that the world has some weird and conflicting ideas about what this word means. Why is there so much confusion?

The Random House Unabridged Dictionary (2006) offers this definition of omniscient: “having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.” That is quite a mouthful; what does it mean to have “complete or unlimited knowledge”? Scholars disagree about what it means, but if we let the lamp of God’s word light our path and guide our steps (Psalm 119:105), we can know the truth of the matter.

The Bible tells us that God does perceive all things, which means that no fact can be hidden from His knowledge. As King David recognized: “Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You, but the night shines as the day; the darkness and the light are both alike to You” (Psalm 139:12). God sees all things, and nothing can be hidden from His knowledge—not even the secret intentions of the heart (Psalm 44:21). In fact, He understands our own intentions better than we do (cf. Jeremiah 17:9-10; Hebrews 4:12)! As Paul explains, “there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).

Human beings perceive through the senses, but there are limits to what the senses let us perceive and understand. But God’s senses are not limited like ours! His Spirit searches all things (1 Corinthians 2:10), and nothing is beyond God’s ability to perceive it. In this sense, He is omniscient. Nothing can escape His gaze and His knowledge. If it can be known, He knows it!

But if we are to use the word omniscient to describe our Father and His glorified Son, it cannot mean that God knows our every choice before we make it in every circumstance, because Scripture tells us otherwise! For example, the Bible shows that when God gave Abraham the supreme test of sacrificing his son Isaac, He did not know until that moment whether Abraham would choose to obey. Upon seeing his choice, He told Abraham: “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me” (Genesis 22:12). This was one of the most crucial points in the history of faith and in the plan of God! It was a challenge so intense, and involving such faith, that God did not know what choice Abraham would make.
http://www.cogwriter.com/god-omnipotent-omniscient-omnipresent.htm

Predestination is the proper theological term to use here. It means that God predetermined absolutely everything, right down to the smallest detail. It is based on the notion that God is omnipotent, a cosmic dictator in complete and total monopolistic control of teh universe. I and other contemporary theologians believe omnipotence is a major theological mistake, as it denies all freedom and makes God the author of all evil. In addition, it does not appear biblical.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Predestination is the proper theological term to use here. It means that God predetermined absolutely everything, right down to the smallest detail. It is based on the notion that God is omnipotent, a cosmic dictator in complete and total monopolistic control of teh universe. I and other contemporary theologians believe omnipotence is a major theological mistake, as it denies all freedom and makes God the author of all evil. In addition, it does not appear biblical.

What are your theological credentials? You use the term I and other theologians.

I think what God meant is He knows all things past, present and future. So
God does know.

But this total lack of free-will doesn't even make sense to me when I look at the Bible. Because I see sin and free-will everywhere.

I do believe Gods Word is inerrant, but there is something predestination folks are missing. Because it doesn't make sense.

God gives us the choice to love Him, to be obedient or to sin, but we have no free-will. The Bible in its history and experiences in OT don't support it either.

 

[keltoi]

Predestination is the proper theological term to use here. It means that God predetermined absolutely everything, right down to the smallest detail. It is based on the notion that God is omnipotent, a cosmic dictator in complete and total monopolistic control of teh universe. I and other contemporary theologians believe omnipotence is a major theological mistake, as it denies all freedom and makes God the author of all evil. In addition, it does not appear biblical.

I think you are taking the idea of Omnipotence to far, it merely means all powerful. God is all powerful but that doesn't mean he wields his omnipotence to force people to do things, he could if he wanted to but I do not believe he does. What you are referring to as Omnipotence is actually despotism.

 

[Albion]

The clarification you give is not accurate. To suggest we don't have free will says that God took that away from us.

The suggestion is that sin has rendered us incapable of perfectly free choice. If you can't understand what you are choosing, it's vain to talk about being the master of your own fate!

 

[Albion]

duplicate

 

[Albion]

Well, we know that he provided a way for us to escape the consequences of our sins--faith in Christ who paid the price for us--so it's obvious to me that something changed after the Fall in Eden.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The suggestion is that sin has rendered us incapable of perfectly free choice. If you can't understand what you are choosing, it's vain to talk about being the master of your own fate!

We've always been sinners and incapable if making good choices. If we made choices our churches would be full.

Now how does that not show free-will? We can and most humans are in rebellion.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, we know that he provided a way for us to escape the consequences of our sins--faith in Christ who paid the price for us--so it's obvious to me that something changed after the Fall in Eden.

Well sin happened.

So God changed his mind? Took our free-will after sin?

Now why would they have free will to make the choice to bring sin down to all men, so then God would change it up?

If God changes major tenants without telling us why, then how can we be sure that in the last 2000 years that God hasn't changed His mind since the cannon closed ?

 

[Albion]

We've always been sinners and incapable if making good choices.

OK, then. I don't see anything in that observation that would cast doubt on what we've been saying so far.

Now how does that not show free-will? We can and most humans are in rebellion.

Once again, it's necessary to keep predestination/Election separate in one's mind from "free choice" in everything that comes along. Sure, we can decide what to have for lunch today, but predestination is about choosing the one true God. We are not capable of coming to Faith without God's intervention. At least that is the principle involved here.

 

[98cwitr]

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was one of the garden's trees. There were many different trees in the garden.

Revelation 22:1-2
Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. rsv​

God could have forbidden them to eat the fruits of any of several different trees, but He only forbade them from eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and this was because it would harm them and they would no longer be innocent of sin.

Because of their sin, they immediately knew fear, guilt, and shame; none of these was God's desire for them.

Every angel was tested and some failed the test of loyalty to God. We call these fallen angels "demons" or "devils."

Every human being will have to choose either to obey or disobey God. Those who remain faithful to God and His commandments until death will be approved worthy to inherit/enter eternal life.

God will allow only the people who actually love Him/obey Him to live with Him forever.

God does not want slaves or puppets; He wants sons and daughters who freely love Him and obey Him.

You don't seem to be addressing as to why God put the Tree there in the first place...especially with the foreknowledge they would eat from it.

 

[mikpat]

In any discussion on forums be careful with a poster who claims to be some sort of "expert" example "I
and other theologians like myself state that———blah blah blah……."
Just because a person is a theologian doesn't mean he/she is a an expert is such a wide open, opinionated topic as "Predestination". Then we can throw in Determinism, the mystery of Reprobation, God's Eternal Resolve, Graces, the merits of man etc.
Secondly a person who states that others (theologians) think the same way—-called 'argumentum ad populum" "well you know many theologians like myself….." blah blah, blah.

Theology involves numerous areas——which one is Hogshead's specialty?
Ascetical Theology
Dogmatic Theology
Historical Theology
Moral Theology
Mystical Theology
Pastoral Theology
Christ's Theology

 

[ToBeLoved]

Once again, it's necessary to keep predestination/Election separate in one's mind from "free choice" in everything that comes along. Sure, we can decide what to have for lunch today, but predestination is about choosing the one true God. We are not capable of coming to Faith without God's intervention. At least that is the principle involved here.

I don't think they can be separated. Scripture interprets scripture.

We cannot throw out the OT now that we have the new, although I know you are not saying that.

But we know we disagree, but I appreciate your answering my questions brother.

 

[Albion]

I don't think they can be separated. Scripture interprets scripture.

They're different concepts, like the Trinity and the Resurrection are both from Scripture but the terms refer to separate or different things.

 

[ToBeLoved]

They're different concepts, like the Trinity and the Resurrection are both from Scripture but the terms refer to separate or different things.

IMHO, that is bad theology. Free-will is very relevant to predestination. Not totally different things. Not the same, but not totally different either.