POLL: Which of these elements of the creation story do you believe?

[rakovsky]

I accept #5 but Calvin was probably reflecting a cosmology, contemporary to his times. There is no real Biblical basis for astronomy, the ancient Hebrews would appear to have little interest in such things.

Grace and peace,
Mark

The Hebrews had some basic concepts of astronomy and constellations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_astronomy
Astronomy was a major topic in Sumer, where Abraham came from, and geology and basic astronomy like the sun's alleged motion are mentioned many times in the Bible.
Just as the Bible gives a narration of Man's creation, it gives a narration of the earth's creation and thus its form.

 

[mmksparbud]

object to#1--parts of it, that is---it says there were waters and it was divided (it doesn't say massive) actual wording is there was a sheet placed between the waters (the word sheet is broad piece of cloth or metal hammered flat)
Genesis 1:6
and Elohiym said, a sheet will exist in the midst of the waters, and he existed, making a separation between waters to waters,
Genesis 1:7
and Elohiym made the sheet, and he made a separation between the waters which are below for a sheet and the waters which are above for a sheet, and he existed so,
Genesis 1:8
and Elohiym called out to the sheet, skies, and evening existed and morning existed, a second day,
--water above and below heaven (firmament)
#2. An evening and a morning=does equal to 24 hours

#3--the 4 corners does not mean a flat square earth---it simply meant the 4 directions. The bible does not ever say the earth is flat. To the ends of the earth simply means throughout the whole earth. That should be Job 37:3 (Not 33)
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
Then 4 winds again simply means the 4 directions'
%he shjeet hammered flat does not mean a flat earth--a flat sheet surrounding the earth.


#4--never to be moved, shall never be moved. Does not mean the earth doesn't move, that it is stationary---It simply means it is not going anywhere-it can't be moved, not that it doesn't move--you can't go out and push it out of the way.

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.
We stay say sunset and sunup as that is what it looks like it's doing. Still doed not dsy the esrth is flat---no verse says that--and the footstool does not mean flat--a footstool came from the neck of the enemy being placed underfoot of the conqueror.

#5--correct---no sculptor can surpass Him!----But He made the animals also---species undergo evolution within their own kind, not from one species to another--different cats formed, different dogs, but all still cats and dogs. Zebras, horses, mules, donkeys, burros--all are equine. You will not find a pig/horse, an alligator/monkey (that's the alligators lunch--snack, really).
Genesis 1:21
and Elohiym fattened the great crocodile and all the living beings the treaders which swarm the waters to their kind, and all the flyers of the wing to his kind, and Elohiym saw that it was functional,
Genesis 1:24
and Elohiym said, the land will bring out living beings to her kind, beasts and treaders and living ones of the land to her kind, and he existed so,

http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html

 

[rakovsky]

I'm not so sure about that:

Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon? Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over? (Isa. 51:9-10)​

A personification here of water tends to indicate that the gods of ancient pagan religions were defeated by the one true, everlasting Most High.

In the passage you cited, the "waters" are not persons or a person. "Rahab" and the Dragon are not specified as the same exact entity as the "waters". Etymologically, "the Waters" in Genesis in Hebrew language corresponds to Tiamat in Akkadian language of Babylonia. Yet neither in genesis nor in the passage you cited are "the waters" clearly specified themselves as a god or sentient being. Rahab and the dragon however are portrayed as living creatures, either gods, animals, or other animated beings.

 

[rakovsky]

object to#1--parts of it, that is---it says there were waters and it was divided (it doesn't say massive) actual wording is there was a sheet placed between the waters (the word sheet is broad piece of cloth or metal hammered flat)
Genesis 1:6
and Elohiym said, a sheet will exist in the midst of the waters, and he existed, making a separation between waters to waters,
Genesis 1:7
and Elohiym made the sheet, and he made a separation between the waters which are below for a sheet and the waters which are above for a sheet, and he existed so,
Genesis 1:8
and Elohiym called out to the sheet, skies, and evening existed and morning existed, a second day,
--water above and below heaven (firmament)

I was not trying to word #1 to be a trick question. Based on my intention, you should have chosen #1. What you said is what I meant for #1.

#2. An evening and a morning=does equal to 24 hours

#3--the 4 corners does not mean a flat square earth---it simply meant the 4 directions. The bible does not ever say the earth is flat. To the ends of the earth simply means throughout the whole earth. That should be Job 37:3 (Not 33)
ἔσχατος
eschatos
es'-khat-os
last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.
Then 4 winds again simply means the 4 directions'

Back in 1000 BC , it was a pretty common idea that the earth was flat and so it's no surprise that this idea is found in the Bible.


Daniel 4:
10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

It says things like this a couple times in the Bible (eg. the beginning of Matthew's gospel, chp 4, where Jesus goes on a high mountain) where a single point above the earth could be seen by or could view the entire earth, which based on normal physics works if the earth is flat, not round. If the earth is round, you can't see the Andes from Tibet. But if it's flat, that's a different story.

#4--never to be moved, shall never be moved. Does not mean the earth doesn't move, that it is stationary---It simply means it is not going anywhere-it can't be moved, not that it doesn't move--you can't go out and push it out of the way.

Since it revolves around the sun, it goes someplace. In fact, astronomers say that our sun and solar system are also in motion around the galaxy, not totally fixed either.

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.
We stay say sunset and sunup as that is what it looks like it's doing. Still doed not dsy the esrth is flat---no verse says that--and the footstool does not mean flat--a footstool came from the neck of the enemy being placed underfoot of the conqueror.

#5--correct---no sculptor can surpass Him!----But He made the animals also---species undergo evolution within their own kind, not from one species to another--different cats formed, different dogs, but all still cats and dogs. Zebras, horses, mules, donkeys, burros--all are equine. You will not find a pig/horse, an alligator/monkey (that's the alligators lunch--snack, really).
Genesis 1:21
and Elohiym fattened the great crocodile and all the living beings the treaders which swarm the waters to their kind, and all the flyers of the wing to his kind, and Elohiym saw that it was functional,
Genesis 1:24
and Elohiym said, the land will bring out living beings to her kind, beasts and treaders and living ones of the land to her kind, and he existed so,

http://www.mechanical-translation.org/mt/translation1.html

Yes, Genesis teaches #5, which was a normal belief in ancient mythology, as were 1,3-4. Not sure about #2 being in other religions or for that matter the Bible though.

 

[mmksparbud]

I was not trying to word #1 to be a trick question. Based on my intention, you should have chosen #1. What you said is what I meant for #1.

Back in 1000 BC , it was a pretty common idea that the earth was flat and so it's no surprise that this idea is found in the Bible.


Daniel 4:
10 Thus were the visions of mine head in my bed; I saw, and behold a tree in the midst of the earth, and the height thereof was great.
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:

It says things like this a couple times in the Bible (eg. the beginning of Matthew's gospel, chp 4, where Jesus goes on a high mountain) where a single point above the earth could be seen by or could view the entire earth, which based on normal physics works if the earth is flat, not round. If the earth is round, you can't see the Andes from Tibet. But if it's flat, that's a different story.



Since it revolves around the sun, it goes someplace. In fact, astronomers say that our sun and solar system are also in motion around the galaxy, not totally fixed either.


Yes, Genesis teaches #5, which was a normal belief in ancient mythology, as were 1,3-4. Not sure about #2 being in other religions or for that matter the Bible though.

The tree in Daniel was a DREAM--not literal--
just means no one is going out to move the earth it is not physically moved by anyone--Ancient mythology?---don't care about that, just talking about what the bible says.

 

[mark kennedy]

In the passage you cited, the "waters" are not persons or a person. "Rahab" and the Dragon are not specified as the same exact entity as the "waters". Etymologically, "the Waters" in Genesis in Hebrew language corresponds to Tiamat in Akkadian language of Babylonia. Yet neither in genesis nor in the passage you cited are "the waters" clearly specified themselves as a god or sentient being. Rahab and the dragon however are portrayed as living creatures, either gods, animals, or other animated beings.

I'm not sure I follow the logic here, personifications are pretty common and the use of Rahab is a pretty good example. Of course, the Scriptures would never suggest that the gods of the world are anything other then frauds. The New Testament strongly suggests that the gods of the world are demons.

 

[rakovsky]

The tree in Daniel was a DREAM--not literal--

Is Matthew 4 just a dream too when in 30 ad Jesus sees all kingdoms from a single mountain?

just means no one is going out to move the earth it is not physically moved by anyone--Ancient mythology?---don't care about that, just talking about what the bible says.

The Bible Says many times that the earth stands still but the sun moves, which is what ancient people thought.
Remember the miracle in Joshua when it says the sun stood still for only one day?

 

[mmksparbud]

Satan was doing this ---it was a supernatural event---even if the earth were flat, you couldn't stand on any mountain and see all the kingdoms of the world!
Luk_4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

It says the sun stood still---the sun dial did not move,---are you saying that the God that spoke a world into existence--that created the sun to begin with, is incapable of doing this? Yah, it looks like the sun is standing still---how does that translate to a flat earth?

 

[rakovsky]

I'm not sure I follow the logic here, personifications are pretty common and the use of Rahab is a pretty good example. Of course, the Scriptures would never suggest that the gods of the world are anything other then frauds. The New Testament strongly suggests that the gods of the world are demons.

Here is what I mean- you wrote:
"I am under the impression that Tiamat isn't a god or a goddess, but rather some kind of an elemental."

In Babylon Ian mythology, Tiamat has body parts and is a goddess. These gods and goddesses in Babylonian mythology had conversations. She is portrayed as a sentient being.

In Genesis 1, Tehowm is the Hebrew word for waters aND might be linguistically the same as tiamat.. Tehowm gets divided like tiamat, but tehowm is not called a goddess in Genesis 1 nor does it talk or have body parts. It is an element, not a sentient being. Genesis 1 does not clearly state any other gods exist besides the Creator.

Later on in the bible we hear about Rahab, but Rahab is a different word than Tehowm, and Rahab is not mentioned in Gen 1.

 

[mmksparbud]

In Genesis 1, Tehowm is the Hebrew word for waters

Tehowm???---
» H4325 «
#4325 מַיִם mayim {mah'-yim}

dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); TWOT - 1188; n m

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) water, waters
1a) water
1b) water of the feet, urine
1c) of danger, violence, transitory things, refreshment (fig.)

—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); water; figuratively juice; by euphemism urine, sperm:— + [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], wasting, water (-ing, [-course, -flood, -spring]).
—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

• #4325.
• מַיִם
• mayim (565b); a prim. root; waters, water:—
• NASB - flood(1), loins(1), pool(1), Water(5), water(373), watering(1), waterless*(1), waters(192).

 

[rakovsky]

Satan was doing this ---it was a supernatural event---even if the earth were flat, you couldn't stand on any mountain and see all the kingdoms of the world!
Luk_4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

This is one of multople times where it talks about seeing across most or all the earth from a single high point, which only works if the earth is flat.
It's one of many times that the bible says the world is flat. It never says AFAIK that the earth is a round globe. John calvin taught that the world was flat in his rebuff to Plato in his Institutes, saying Plato "lost himself in his round globe"

It says the sun stood still---the sun dial did not move,---are you saying that the God that spoke a world into existence--that created the sun to begin with, is incapable of doing this? Yah, it looks like the sun is standing still---how does that translate to a flat earth?

It's one of many places that it teaches that the sun moves and the earth stands still. For Joshua there was just a one day exception when the sun stood still. After that, the sun went back to revolving around the earth again.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is one of multople times where it talks about seeing across most or all the earth from a single high point, which only works if the earth is flat.

What other times???

 

[rakovsky]

Tehowm???---
» H4325 «
#4325 מַיִם mayim {mah'-yim}

dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); TWOT - 1188; n m

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) water, waters
1a) water
1b) water of the feet, urine
1c) of danger, violence, transitory things, refreshment (fig.)

—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); water; figuratively juice; by euphemism urine, sperm:— + [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], wasting, water (-ing, [-course, -flood, -spring]).
—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

• #4325.
• מַיִם
• mayim (565b); a prim. root; waters, water:—
• NASB - flood(1), loins(1), pool(1), Water(5), water(373), watering(1), waterless*(1), waters(192).

Sorry, Tehowm is THE DEEP mentioned in Genesis 1.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/tehom_8415.htm

Some scholars propose that the deep is linguistically related to tiamat and the story of marduk splitting the goddess tiamat, the primordial waters, is related to genesis 1 where God splits the waters.

 

[rakovsky]

What other times???

Daniel is another place. In revelation, every eye sees jesus coming on the clouds.

Here is a website on the Bible teaching a flat, motionless earth and giving verses to support this:
http://www.testingtheglobe.com/bible.html

That is what ancient people in 1500 bc commonly believed.

 

[rakovsky]

Mmksparbud,
Notice that in Joshua it says that it was a miracle that the sun stood still, not that the earth stood still. People then believed in a flat motionless earth. John Calvin believed that in 1500 ad and the Babylonians believed that in 1500 bc. It's only nowadays that we have a pretty strong consensus otherwise.

Back in 1500 ad the big controversy was whether there was water over the heavens like the bible said. Calvin answered NO and that people shouldn't use that verse for "astronomy", Luther answered Yes and that we should follow the verse. Calvin was somewhat of a modern skeptic on some Biblical teachings.

Nowadays the big controversy among christians is whether God made man directly out of the ground. They usually don't believe #s 1 to 4 and take 1 to 4 as an allegory, metaphor, figure of speech, or story.

 

[mmksparbud]

Daniel is another place. In revelation, every eye sees jesus coming on the clouds.

Here is a website on the Bible teaching a flat, motionless earth and giving verses to support this:
http://www.testingtheglobe.com/bible.html

That is what ancient people in 1500 bc commonly believed.

Yah, seen those--not one has ever said the earth is flat. Figures of speech, like the 4 corners is simply the 4 directions. So you think the earth has to be flat for every eye to see Him---like the sun standing still thing that God is incapable of doing, God is incapable of doing this either?? I guess I'm wondering what your point is---are you a flat earther or just stating what others think? Do you feel the bible is mythology derived from other religions??

 

[rakovsky]

-like the sun standing still thing that God is incapable of doing, God is incapable of doing this either??

I think you are missing the point i am making about joshua. If the sun ONLY STOOD still one day in Joshua' s time, it means that normally the sun revolves around the earth. That means that the bible teaches that the sun is in motion. The Bible elsewhere says that the earth stays still. It teaches geocentricism.

I think that back in 1500 bc when bible writers talked about the earth having ends, they actually thought that the earth had ends, just like Calvin and the rest of the Christian world thought in 1520 ad.

 

[mmksparbud]

I guess I'm wondering what your point is---are you a flat earther or just stating what others think? Do you feel the bible is mythology derived from other religions??

I am asking what you think.

 

[tickingclocker]

God made everything HIS way and in HIS time, not the way we may conclude He meant it being made within our version of time

 

[Tree of Life]

1. A firm layer divided the waters so that a massive body of liquid water was above the stars.

"The firmament" is the Hebrew רָקִיעַ which simply means "a spreading out". The same root verb is also used to refer to hammered works of metal. It's simply the idea of the sky spreading out infinitely above us. The "waters above" simply refer to clouds. There is no evidence that the Hebrews believed in anything like a celestial sea.

2. The 7 days of creations were in 24 hour periods, so the earth's age is in thousands of years.

I am not sure if the Bible actually teaches this one, since the sun was made on the fourth day or so, after the earth was already made.

The significance of the sun and moon made on day four is to show that God himself is the source of light and does not need the sun and the moon in order to provide it. The sun and moon are simply called "the greater light" and "the lesser light" because the names of the sun and moon could have referred to deities. Genesis is a polemic against that idea. Don't worship the sun and moon as light givers. Worship Elohim.

3. The Earth is flat.

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

Job 37:33 He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

You're really grasping here. None of these passages are part of the creation story. The Revelation passage is apocalyptic literature and so prone to lots of figurative language, impressionistic imagery, and allegory. And the colloquial expression "four corners of the earth" simply means "everywhere". It's a stretch to use these passages to say that the Bible definitively teaches a flat earth.

4. Geocentricism: The earth does not move, whereas the sun does not stand still. In other words, the earth does not go around the sun.

1 Chronicles 16:30
tremble before him, all earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.

Psalms 93:1
The Lord reigns; he is robbed in majesty; the lord is robbed, he is girded with strength. Yea, the world is established; it shall never be moved.

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises.

Ecclesiastes is an example of colloquial, geocentric language. From the vantage point of the earth, the sun appears to rise and set. The point is that the days are filled with weariness. Each day is the same. This is not meant to be a scientific statement about the nature of heavenly bodies. Genre, people.

Scripture that talks about the world never moving refers to the stability of creation.