Predestination, is it coercive determinism ?

[keltoi]

We need to back up a sec. Do you believe that God knew that Adam and Eve would eat from the Tree prior to the creation of the Tree and the humans? If so, why do you believe God put the Tree in the garden, knowing there was no other outcome other than that they would disobey Him? (See Isaiah 45:7, Ezekiel 36, and Romans 5)

I use Genesis because you wanted a quote from the Bible to back up my belief and you say we need to back up.
I believe God knows everything.
I believe God doesn't force us to do anything.
I believe God gave us free will and we use it.
That is as far as backed up I can go because it is the point I made earlier which you wanted clarification on.
If we don't have free will we are puppets and then God is forcing us to do his will, if that is the case God is causing humanity to sin. Please justify that for me based on your understanding of God.

 

[98cwitr]

But scripture states Christ died for all of mankind so again your thinking does not pan out.

Read John 3:17-21 and then tell me He died for the non-elect. Take note of the "already condemned" part.

 

[98cwitr]

I use Genesis because you wanted a quote from the Bible to back up my belief and you say we need to back up.
I believe God knows everything.
I believe God doesn't force us to do anything.
I believe God gave us free will and we use it.
That is as far as backed up I can go because it is the point I made earlier which you wanted clarification on.
If we don't have free will we are puppets and then God is forcing us to do his will, if that is the case God is causing humanity to sin. Please justify that for me based on your understanding of God.

You need to reconcile your beliefs with that God decided to put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden before man even existed, with full foreknowledge that man would fall.

My justification is Isaiah 45:7, John 6:37-44, and Romans 9.

 

[Albion]

"maybe" elected..."potentially" elected

That's the same difference as before.

 

[Albion]

People that "go to hell" would not be happy in heaven, since heaven is like one huge "Love Feast" of only Godly type Love. People that "go to hell" have repeatedly refused to accept Godly type Love (preferring to be loved for the way they want people to perceive them to be) and reached the point of never humbly accepting Godly type Love as pure charity.

Well, that's only applicable to some who are lost. Most, however, never had the Gospel preached to them.

 

[98cwitr]

Well, that's only applicable to some who are lost. Most, however, never had the Gospel preached to them.

...because sin is never talked about anymore in church.

 

[Rick Otto]

In order not to derail another thread and in the hope of getting responses from a wider range of Christians, I have posted this question in GT.

The original question "How is predestining ALL things not in any way deterministic ?"

The reply was:
"It is deterministic - as in He works ALL things after the council of His good and perfect will.

But determining all things that will and will not take place in His creation is not “coercive".

God's predestination of something that a man does is not the same as coercing the man to do it."

My understanding that if God predestines something then it will happen and this is the exact same thing as God determining infallibly that something will happen. The use of 'coercive' in the discussion is redundant.

What do other people think and believe ?

I believe determinism is good because I believe God is good.
I do not equate "good" with "kind" or "fair".

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE="Erose, post: 69559631, member: 265044"]Ok, how does it not?

If you told me that I am destined to heaven, no matter what I do, then why work at it?

Gratitude. I am surprised you had to ask. It is the natural reaction to having been saved. I would venture that only an unsaved person wouldn't care.

If you tell me I am destined to hell, no matter what I do, then why should I care about what my actions do?

Everyone is destined for hell. Some of us are predestined for mercy. For what good reason other than the gospel would anyone tell anyone else they are destined for hell?


It

s like if you told someone that no matter what they do they are going to get $2000 a week to live on. They can work for a living to better society or they could set on their bums and watch tv all day, go on vacations, whatever. What path do you think the majority of people will take? I bet you that most of them would go the later route over the former.

Do you mean the majority of saved people, or the majority of people? The majority of saved people are not selfish, lazy, and ungrateful.

So if you tell someone that they are destined for heaven, and there is nothing they can do about it; they could either go to church, read Scripture, do charity work, pray daily, work on their relationship with Jesus, etc., etc., etc.; or live a life of selfishness, greed, etc., etc., etc. What path do you think that most will follow? I bet most of them with go the later route here as well.

Who tells anyone what their destiny is, and why should anyone believe it? Your hypothetical situations don't describe saved people, they describe ungrateful, selfish sinners.

Heck we already know for a fact that most go that later route anyway, as Jesus Himself spoke of the two roads.

And, most people believe in free will. Go figure.

In all honesty that is a depressing worldview IMO. Not knowing one way or another if you are one of the destined or one of the fallen, that would not make me live in comfort.
?

it's only depressing from your negative perspective of it. I find determinism a relieving, freeing inspiration to trust God.

 

[98cwitr]

^^^this! It such a relief to know God is control of things and there is nothing that will change it.

 

[Rick Otto]

^^^this! It such a relief to know God is control of things and there is nothing that will change it.

Thank you. I was starting to feel lonely. lol

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

Read John 3:17-21 and then tell me He died for the non-elect. Take note of the "already condemned" part.

The point you missed is that Christ died for all mankind inlcuding the unsaved.

John 3:
16 For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world, that he should condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

Whether we get saved or not doesn't change that fact.

 

[keltoi]

You need to reconcile your beliefs with that God decided to put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden before man even existed, with full foreknowledge that man would fall.

I don't need to reconcile anything.

My justification is Isaiah 45:7, John 6:37-44, and Romans 9.

So what exactly in Isaiah 45:7 tells you that sin originates from God?
What exactly in John 6: 37-44 goes against what I have said?
You do realise Romans 9 is discussing faith don't you. Those who believe through faith are saved those who work to be seen to have faith aren't. It describes the New Covenant that includes the Gentiles and excludes some Hebrews because Gentiles believe through faith and the Hebrews stuck to the Law.
Again I ask you, and by the way I answer your questions but you haven't answered mine so until you do I'm not going any further with you, Ii we don't have free will we are puppets and then God is forcing us to do his will, if that is the case God is causing humanity to sin. Please justify that for me based on your understanding of God.

 

[Rick Otto]

The point you missed is that Christ died for all mankind inlcuding the unsaved.

John 3:
16 For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world, that he should condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

You missed that "all mankind" is written in distinction to "all Israel". So "all mankind" doesn't mean each and every individual in this context. The context is that Israel is the chosen race, and the change in testament from old to new simply reveals that all races (all mankind) will be represented in heaven.
To ignore this is to say that anyone going to hell is an example of God not honoring the sacrifice of His Son.

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't need to reconcile anything.

So what exactly in Isaiah 45:7 tells you that sin originates from God?
What exactly in John 6: 37-44 goes against what I have said?
You do realise Romans 9 is discussing faith don't you. Those who believe through faith are saved those who work to be seen to have faith aren't. It describes the New Covenant that includes the Gentiles and excludes some Hebrews because Gentiles believe through faith and the Hebrews stuck to the Law.
Again I ask you, and by the way I answer your questions but you haven't answered mine so until you do I'm not going any further with you, Ii we don't have free will we are puppets and then God is forcing us to do his will, if that is the case God is causing humanity to sin. Please justify that for me based on your understanding of God.

Isa 45:7 simply reveals God creates evil, not sin. Sin is evil, but evil is not sin. Evil was created as a possibility, man actualizes that possibility into a reality.
Puppets don't have to be forced. They don't resist, having no will.
Having a will doesn't make you human. Robots have wills. They are created along with the robot. It is a flawed analogy using inadequate definitions to make an emotional appeal. Our egos are so attached to us, they think they ARE us.

 

[98cwitr]

The point you missed is that Christ died for all mankind inlcuding the unsaved.

John 3:
16 For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world, that he should condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

Whether we get saved or not doesn't change that fact.

You left out 18-21. Why would God spill the blood of His Son for people He knows will wind up in hell? To condemn them?

 

[98cwitr]

I don't need to reconcile anything.

Please stop ignoring the elephant on the table.

So what exactly in Isaiah 45:7 tells you that sin originates from God?

It tells me God creates all things...good and bad. The book of Job confirms that. You still need to address the creation of the Tree.

What exactly in John 6: 37-44 goes against what I have said?

Nothing yet. Im hoping you would just read the verses and address them

You do realise Romans 9 is discussing faith don't you. Those who believe through faith are saved those who work to be seen to have faith aren't. It describes the New Covenant that includes the Gentiles and excludes some Hebrews because Gentiles believe through faith and the Hebrews stuck to the Law.

Those that love Christ do as He commands: John 14 and John 15.

Again I ask you, and by the way I answer your questions but you haven't answered mine so until you do I'm not going any further with you, Ii we don't have free will we are puppets and then God is forcing us to do his will, if that is the case God is causing humanity to sin. Please justify that for me based on your understanding of God.

God creates people He knows will go to hell and despite that creates them anyway. There's a real fact to wrestle with!

Im sorry you feel if I havent answered your questions. Would you rather move to a more close-ended format (yes/no)?

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

The point you missed is that Christ died for all mankind inlcuding the unsaved.

John 3:
16 For God so loveth the world, that he hath given his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world, that he should condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

You missed that "all mankind" is written in distinction to "all Israel". So "all mankind" doesn't mean each and every individual in this context. The context is that Israel is the chosen race, and the change in testament from old to new simply reveals that all races (all mankind) will be represented in heaven.
To ignore this is to say that anyone going to hell is an example of God not honoring the sacrifice of His Son.

Sorry but when the world is mentioned it is inclusive of everybody.

 

[BornAgainChristian1]

You left out 18-21. Why would God spill the blood of His Son for people He knows will wind up in hell? To condemn them?

You do understand the world is inclusive of everybody?

 

[Noxot]

God wills what is good and wills all be saved but he can not rule over our freedom because then we would not exist. if we want hell can exist forever, in duality eternal separation is possible. one day God said to me in spirit when I asked him that i don't want to exist:

"really? are you really sure? i'm going to give you some time to decide if that is what you really want, but I want you to exist and I love you, I don't think you are making a very good decision in choosing to destroy yourself, I think you are sick and need to be healed, and then when you are healed I will let you decide if you really want to exist or not, but i just can't let you go that easily."

 

[keltoi]

Please stop ignoring the elephant on the table.

What elephant?

It tells me God creates all things...good and bad. The book of Job confirms that. You still need to address the creation of the Tree.

You need to address whether God is causing humanity to sin or if we do it of our own accord.

Nothing yet. Im hoping you would just read the verses and address them

What has to be addressed? They do not disagree with what I said.

Those that love Christ do as He commands: John 14 and John 15.

Yes of our own free will because we love Christ. It is a natural end result to having faith in the saviour.

God creates people He knows will go to hell and despite that creates them anyway. There's a real fact to wrestle with!

They go to hell because they chose to ignore the offer of salvation.

Im sorry you feel if I havent answered your questions. Would you rather move to a more close-ended format (yes/no)?

I'd prefer you stopped playing games. You want me to address verses that don't disagree with anything I said, for what reason? Is there some adrenalin rush here for you if I do? You had a problem with my post, you wanted proof I gave it, you haven't address the section of scripture I gave yet you want me to address things you give. I said this next comment to someone else, I'm not your monkey and I don't work in your circus.

If you want something you should return the favour.