• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Exodus 20:9-11 (Creation)

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
  1. It is only a problem for those who begin to trust in themselves instead of God. The end of the scientific experiment, never comes until it is too late...leaving science only to have proven a multitude of steps on a path they could not prove, a path going where they knew not.
  2. Not every understanding of God is man's understanding. And yet...your comment does indeed explain your understanding...as simply being your own.
  3. There is wise, and then there is wise. The wisdom of men is not the wisdom of God. But we have the mind of Christ (God).
Please don't use the list option, it makes it difficult to respond to your statements individually.

1. So we can't trust the eyes God gave us, the hands God gave us, the brains God gave us?

Apparently we can't trust the Bible either;

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork."


2. Quite the contrary, every understanding of God is man's understanding. Your comment shows that as well.

3. And how do tell the difference between the two? Is the only the one that agrees with our preconceived ideas? If "we" have the mind of Christ then how can we have different opinions about the Bible?
 
Upvote 0

Oliver King

Member
Apr 12, 2016
15
3
Maine
✟23,079.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Well, it saddens me how so many fundamentalists think that they are the only game in town , that their interpretation of Scripture is the only viable one. To me, it seems more likely that God never intended the Bible to be an accurate geophysical witness. I know I pointed that out in just another post today. Maybe yours. In case you missed it, I believe God works like a carpenter, God works with the grain, not over and against it. God well knew he was working with a prescientific people. God well knew that it would make no sense to reveal to them advanced scientific truth. They wouldn't have known what to do with it. Expecting God to have done that, would be like expecting God to give Columbus a nuclear sub and say here are the keys, have at it. Poor Christ wouldn't have know what to do wit it. So again, I think it's sad the way teh Bible Belt seems to think that it has the only viable understanding of how God relates to Scripture.

My freind God intended the bible to be exactly how it is the is nothing not intended in the bible
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
Man did not evolve. Those who claim man evolved are lying as proven my interpretation of the clear text of the Scriptures.
Fish did not evolve. Those who claim fish evolved are lying as proven my interpretation of the clear text of the Scriptures.
Whales did not evolve. Those who claim whales evolved are lying as proven my interpretation of the clear text of the Scriptures.
Trees did not evolve. Those who claim trees evolved are lying as proven my interpretation of the clear text of the Scriptures.
The great flood happened. Those who claim it did not happen are lying as proven my interpretation of the clear text of the Scriptures.
Case closed.
Fixed that for you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MWood
Upvote 0

tatteredsoul

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2016
1,942
1,035
New York/Int'l
✟29,634.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No, that's something you're reading into it. It isn't that complicated.
In the beginning means our beginning. God always was. God will always be.
God created the heavens and the earth in six days. Get used to it. Nothing evolved.


Did I say anything about evolution? God did not create the earth in six days: reread the scriptures! In the BEGINNING, God created the heaven and the earth. He separated the light and darkness on the first day - that EVENT was the first day. And, the earth BECAME void, it wasnt made void. As i said, if you actually study the Hebrew, it is very clear what happened before God even dictated what a day was, and it explains why a separation of ore and chochek happened in the first place.

Speciation came from creation to the flood, and then from the flood to present day. Traits were lost or accentuated, but new traits never popped into being.

Genetics were manually altered before and after the flood, which is why Noah was perfect in his GENERATIONS: he did not alter his genetic material.

I've never said otherwise. There was light. The light became the sun, moon and stars on day 4.

When did God, Christ or a patriarch EVER say the first day light was the fourth day sun? No where. The Hebrew is clear: ore is illumination in every single way - not just stellar illumination.

When used with the qualifiers of numbered days or a morning and night, it means a single solar day 100% of the time.

How can deduce this when there is no sun! There was no sun or stellar structures until day 4. How can it mean a solar day 100% of the time when 50% of creation was made without the sun?

On the contrary. he was a murderer, and for that he could not enter the promised land.

I actually meant Noah was perfect in his generations, but Moses did not get denied the promised land because he was a "murderer" (that is definitely debatable, as he killed the soldier for beating his "brother." Not quite murder.) Moses was denied access because he hit the rock instead of speaking to it.
 
Upvote 0

MWood

Newbie
Jan 7, 2013
3,894
7,990
✟137,571.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
to fill, be full
  1. (Qal)
    1. to be full
      1. fulness, abundance (participle)
      2. to be full, be accomplished, be ended
    2. to consecrate, fill the hand
...But "replenish", is in reference to what was "lost" in the fall. Matthew 18:11
The first man and woman was created quite some time before the fall. So how could that be?
 
Upvote 0

Paul of Eugene OR

Finally Old Enough
Site Supporter
May 3, 2014
6,373
1,858
✟278,532.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Man did not evolve. Those who claim man evolved are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
Fish did not evolve. Those who claim fish evolved are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
Whales did not evolve. Those who claim whales evolved are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
Trees did not evolve. Those who claim trees evolved are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
The great flood happened. Those who claim it did not happen are lying as proven by the clear text of the Scriptures.
Case closed.

And we know to use the bible in that way to dismiss all other evidence because . . . (insert evidence here)

Logically, you have to use the evidence for the great age of the earth and the evolution of life as part of the evidence you insert there. Otherwise you are simply picking what evidence you like and rejecting evidence you don't like and that's not a reliable way to decide things!
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Genesis 1-2:4 is a "summary" of creation, beginning to end, then in Genesis 2:4 on, we get into details...

Also when God says "he created" why could it not be through a guided and directed evolutionary process...
No, that is totally inaccurate. We are dealing with two contradictory chronologies, in Genesis, written by different authors, in very different literary styles, from different time periods. See below.
v






When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from two different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
Upvote 0

AFrazier

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 1, 2016
1,347
389
53
Mauldin, South Carolina
✟278,733.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
The numbers of the ages of the Patriarchs are honerific numbers, stated as such so that we are in sufficient awe of their importance to us. The geneologies we have are incomplete.
Where?
 
Upvote 0

AFrazier

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 1, 2016
1,347
389
53
Mauldin, South Carolina
✟278,733.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
My freind God intended the bible to be exactly how it is the is nothing not intended in the bible
Except maybe that part where Moses allowed men to put away their wives for any reason because of the hardness of their hearts, when from the beginning it was not so.
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
When Genesis was,written it was written to,mankind. He was describing days to people who understood what a day was. He defined day as evening and morning so we would,now how long it took him to create everything. It took 6 evenings and,morning as days. The Hebrew for day "yom" is defined by context. In Genesis it is defined by evening and morning. This is further established in Exodus when God refers to creating six days and resiting one and then telling the Isrealites to follow his example.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
NO, it was written for the Hebrews, the Chosen People, only.
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Well I think he is debating with those that would argue that God created by evolution. Which is not biblical and I would agree with him and also try and convince other brothers to not buy into man's concepts but God's truth.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
Yes, but you see, you then have a problem with your approach. You are gong on teh fundamentalist version of the Bible. OK, fine. But that is still a man-made interpretation of the Bible and open to serious questioning.
 
Upvote 0

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟98,077.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Fixed that for you.
No interpretation needed. If you wish to reject part or all of the Scriptures, don't pretend that your rejection is somehow sanctioned. Christ taught that the Scriptures were accurate as written. Apparently, you choose not to believe him.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
No interpretation needed. If you wish to reject part or all of the Scriptures, don't pretend that your rejection is somehow sanctioned. Christ taught that the Scriptures were accurate as written. Apparently, you choose not to believe him.
I don't reject the Scriptures. I reject any interpretation of the Scriptures that conflict with the evidence God left behind.
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
And who is responsible for the way the rocks are? God is. Who is responsible for the way the stars are? God is. Who is responsible for the way the genetics are in living things? God is.

So you can trust the Word of God revealed in the stars, the rocks, and the genomes . . . they all came from God's hand. And they tell us of the age of the earth and the manner of creation.

Are there contradictions in the Bible? Some say yes, there are, and give examples. Others then move in an reinterpret passages heroically - cleverly - with many words - and claim they have removed the contradictions.

It is just as possible to reconcile the age of the earth and evolution with the Bible as to reconcile the other so-called contradictions in the Bible. All it takes is the same reinterpretation, clever use of words, and steely resolve displayed already by reconciling the other alleged contradictions.

There will be those who refuse to do this. They would rather disbelieve the evidence from God's stars, God's rocks, God's genomes.

Their choice.
As a matter of fact, there are about 100 major contradictions in the Bible. And no, they have not been reconciled. Who told you that? Have you looked at any of them? There are, for example, two contradictory creation accounts in Genesis. In case you are interested, I am including information on these, below.






When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from two different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Exactly. The people of the time had no concept of millions of years, so God uses an allegorical reference with which they are familiar.

How was there a morning and evening without the sun? The sun is what defines these concepts.
The fact of the matter is that there are around 100 major contradictions in the Bible. One is the two conflicting accounts of creation in Genesis. Below, I have some included some of my remarks that may be helpful to you here.







When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from two different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
Upvote 0

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Genesis 1:1 contradicts Genesis 2:4 if you have noncontext.

Firstly, what is the your definition of day?

Second, why does it say day (singular) as opposed to days (plural... six to be exact)?

God created Earth and Heaven in the beginning - before time.

The act of God separating light from darkness denoted the first day.
Genesis provides two contradictory chronologies. Just in case they may be helpful to you, have included my remarks, below.






When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from two different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,194
6,997
71
USA
✟585,424.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
1. So we can't trust the eyes God gave us, the hands God gave us, the brains God gave us?

All depends. We sometimes can't trust imaginations we allow to run wild, or in some cases, understanding things according to agenda....selective understanding.
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
All depends. We sometimes can't trust imaginations we allow to run wild, or in some cases, understanding things according to agenda....selective understanding.
Just like some Christians do with the Bible, right?
 
Upvote 0

Queller

I'm where?
May 25, 2012
6,446
681
✟52,592.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Politics
US-Others
That's one way to get your way...do you do that with the Bible as well?
Do I do what? Recognize that my interpretation of the Bible, is just that, my interpretation (although it is shared by millions of other Christians)? Something I've prayed over for guidance? Or that I recognize that I am an imperfect person and fallible, and that I may therefore be wrong?

Absolutely I do that.

Do you?
 
Upvote 0