Evilution VS Evolution

[PsychoSarah]

It's easy to understand that you sound like a kid who wants to disown his parents because he got a bicycle for his birthday instead of a motorcycle.

This isn't a matter of efficiency, but a real matter of death. Unless you think Adam and Eve didn't need to breathe, they too could have suffered an immense amount of damage were they to choke. Yet, there is an easy to see way to plan out the human body to make that risk not exist.

I think the easiest way for you to refute the argument is for you to explain how anything works outside of time, space, matter.

Nothing outside of space, time, and matter can influence things in our universe, because this literally means the item in question cannot touch, takes up no volume, and cannot move.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Every year thousands of people WILL die from choking due to no fault of their own, simply through the setup of their breathing and eating tubes. Does that sound like the design of a perfect and all-loving God?

There is a lesson in everything. Some people believe that the entire Universe has been designed as a object lesson for us to learn from: "the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." Mark 4:19

 

[PsychoSarah]

There is a lesson in everything. Some people believe that the entire Universe has been designed as a object lesson for us to learn from: "the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." Mark 4:19

Basically, excuses.

 

[Hoghead1]

There is a lesson in everything. Some people believe that the entire Universe has been designed as a object lesson for us to learn from: "the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." Mark 4:19

I realize some think the universe was designed by God as a huge exercise in character building. I also go with the idea of no pain, no gain. However, as I said in a previous post, there are many pains that are totally destructive to an individual and not at all a positive learning experience. What about all those poor souls who died and were thrown into the ovens in the camps? Oh, well, God was just giving them the stress test and they failed the big final and so they got what they deserved.

 

[Hoghead1]

There is a lesson in everything. Some people believe that the entire Universe has been designed as a object lesson for us to learn from: "the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." Mark 4:19

As I said, I believe there is no gain, without pain. But, as I also just said, some pain is totally destructive to us. What did you learn from being brutally tortured? Well, gee, I learned what it is like to have electric shocks repeatedly applied to your genitals. You know, I often wondered about that and I am sure you did, too. Well, now I know. So I say thinks, Lord. What did you learn from being stricken with Alzheimer's disease? Well, gee, now I know what it is like to so completely loose your memory you can't even recognize immediate members of your family. You know, I often wondered what that would be like and I am sure you did, too. Well, now I know. So I say thanks, Lord. C'mon.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

This isn't a matter of efficiency, but a real matter of death. Unless you think Adam and Eve didn't need to breathe, they too could have suffered an immense amount of damage were they to choke. Yet, there is an easy to see way to plan out the human body to make that risk not exist.

"Immense amount of damage". I'm guessing you mean death. Yeah, death happens. It's part of life. The fact that it could happen as a result of choking, or heart attack, or some random accident or just from growing old is all the more reason to appreciate what we have while we have it, rather than to complain about the more we believe we deserve.

Nothing outside of space, time, and matter can influence things in our universe, because this literally means the item in question cannot touch, takes up no volume, and cannot move.

So, how did you come to understand what is or is not able to happen as a result of being outside of space, time, matter?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

What about all those poor souls who died and were thrown into the ovens in the camps? Oh, well, God was just giving them the stress test and they failed the big final and so they got what they deserved.

Perhaps it was a test for both the victims and the perpetrators, and for everyone else who either had some personal experience with it or learned about it later. Yeah, God allows people to be hurt, because it's the only way that free will really can be free.

It's terrible the way we treat one another at times, but we keep doing it, don't we? Despite all the various genocides throughout history, more will come. Terrible governments are made up of and supported by ordinary people.

Instead of blaming God for the terrible choices of people around us, perhaps we should start making some choices of our own to start dealing with those problems.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Is that the way you treat your property? "The righteous care for the needs of their animals," Are you suggesting that the Bible teaches we are to take good care of animals but we do not need to take good care of our servants?

1. "slaves", not "servants"

2. Exodus 21:21

 

[joshua 1 9]

1. "slaves", not "servants"

2. Exodus 21:21

The main point of the Bible is that sinners are slaves to sin. They are in bondage and Jesus paid the price so that they could be set free.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The main point of the Bible is that sinners are slaves to sin. They are in bondage and Jesus paid the price so that they could be set free.

That's about as besides the point as you could get, in response to my post.

 

[joshua 1 9]

That's about as besides the point as you could get, in response to my post.

I am sure that this appears to be ad hoc to you. But a major Major MAJOR rule for understanding the Bible is that all of the Bible is written as an object lesson for people to learn from. Otherwise if you do not understand that then you are not going to be able to properly understand and interpret the Bible. We are talking some basic 101 stuff on how to understand and interpret the Bible. In order to come to this forum you have to understand at least basic 101 evolutionary theory. You are expected to have a High School understanding. Actually I have evolutionists that are calling me "ignorant" because I do not have a PhD level of understanding of the Chemisty, Biology and Genetics. In comparison Evolutionists often do not even have a third grade level of understanding of the Bible. There is a VERY VERY Extreme imbalance here in expectations. My son is graduating from High School so I am well aware of what a High School student is expected to know. Here is his transcript. This is just the classes they take at the High School. This does not include the classes he took at the University. So the bottom line here is we need to address this imbalance in what people are expected to know about science and compare that to what they are expected to know about the Bible. All things considered we should play on an even field. If you expect me to function at a high school level in science then I have the same right to expect you to be able to function at that same level in Bible comprehension and interpretation. It is wonderful that they expect the students to have a high school level of science to be qualified to graduate. It is an atrocity that they do not maintain the same standard to require people to understand the Bible and know how to apply the teaching in the Bible to their lives.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Why not?
God authorised torture and multiple murders for the sake of a bet.
(Apparently.)

Hi Chris. I've made a new thread about this question. You can find it here; http://www.christianforums.com/threads/job-torture-and-the-bet.7943806/

I look forward to your response, if you're interested.

 

[PsychoSarah]

"Immense amount of damage". I'm guessing you mean death. Yeah, death happens. It's part of life. The fact that it could happen as a result of choking, or heart attack, or some random accident or just from growing old is all the more reason to appreciate what we have while we have it, rather than to complain about the more we believe we deserve.



So, how did you come to understand what is or is not able to happen as a result of being outside of space, time, matter?

I didn't mean death necessarily, because before the fall, death supposedly did not apply to them. More like intense agony and throat irritation, potential loss of voice, things like that.

Time is a measure of movement over distance. A being that defies conventions of time could exist but would have nonlinear motion in terms of physical presence, but a being without time at all would either have to lack movement entirely down to the atomic level, or not attempt to interact within our universe. Matter is a property of being physical in some sense. True, we can touch and interact with energy, but based on the interactions YHWH has in the bible, the being has to have some mass. Space is taking up physical area in some regard. Literally anything that could qualify as real in the universe moves through it.

 

[TLK Valentine]

There is a lesson in everything. Some people believe that the entire Universe has been designed as a object lesson for us to learn from: "the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." Mark 4:19

Sounds like God just wants some people to choke to death, and He designed us accordingly...

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Sounds like God just wants some people to choke to death, and He designed us accordingly...

Hmmm, all the information you have access to. All that you're able to see and experience in the world; the ability you have to process that information and your conclusion is, "God just wants some people to choke"?

I usually try to avoid saying this kind of thing because it can so easily come across as insulting, but I think in this case it really is appropriate; you probably just need to do a little more growing to appreciate what you have.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Hmmm, all the information you have access to. All that you're able to see and experience in the world; the ability you have to process that information and your conclusion is, "God just wants some people to choke"?

The designer takes responsibility for His design... or did He not take choking into consideration?

I usually try to avoid saying this kind of thing because it can so easily come across as insulting, but I think in this case it really is appropriate; you probably just need to do a little more growing to appreciate what you have.

Ah, but I do appreciate it... from an evolutionary standpoint, it works.

I would've expected more from an intelligent designer, but since I don't believe in one, it's moot.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Sounds like God just wants some people to choke to death, and He designed us accordingly...

Depends on if you go along with the hard or the soft anthropic principle. Also different people have different gag responses.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Depends on if you go along with the hard or the soft anthropic principle. Also different people have different gag responses.

By chance or by design?

 

[Chris B]

. It is wonderful that they expect the students to have a high school level of science to be qualified to graduate. It is an atrocity that they do not maintain the same standard to require people to understand the Bible and know how to apply the teaching in the Bible to their lives.

But then are you going to be able to insist that it is the bible (alone) that is studied to such a high level?
Not other historic religious texts as well?

 

[AV1611VET]

But then are you going to be able to insist that it is the bible (alone) that is studied to such a high level?

Yes.

Not other historic religious texts as well?

No.