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Believe the Bible - bend the Bible - deny the Bible... pick one

Which do you choose -

  • Believe the Bible as written

    Votes: 25 69.4%
  • Bend the Bible to make it fit preferences

    Votes: 3 8.3%
  • Deny the Bible - declare that it is the work of mere man

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • Plead the 5th

    Votes: 4 11.1%

  • Total voters
    36

BobRyan

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Blind faith evolutionism - guess work 'IN ACTION'


From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gaylord_Simpson

G.G. Simpson -- the most influential paleontologist of the twentieth century, and a major participant in the modern evolutionary synthesis,

He was Professor of Zoology at Columbia University, and Curator of the Department of Geology and Paleontology at the American Museum of Natural History from 1945 to 1959. He was Curator of the Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard University from 1959 to 1970, and a Professor of Geosciences at the University of Arizona until his retirement in 1982.


Caught in the act

G.G. Simpson in 1951 – evolutionism is a “done deal” and horse series is one of the clearest and most convincing example.

“The history of the horse family is still one of the clearest and most convincing for showing that organisms really have evolved. . . There really is no point nowadays in continuing to collect and to study fossils simply to determine whether or not evolution is a fact. The question has been decisively answered in the affirmative.” 2 Simpson, George G. 1951. Horses. Oxford University Press.



Outright confession –

"The uniform continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature."—G.G. Simpson, Life of the Past (1953), p. 119.


"I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories??] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs [in the American Museum of Natural History] is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable ..."
Niles Eldredge, as quoted in Luther D Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, 4th ed. 1988, pg 78.


========================= still nastolgic --


From http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html

In the 1870's, the paleontologist O.C. Marsh published a description of newly discovered horse fossils from North America. At the time, very few transitional fossils were known, apart from Archeopteryx. The sequence of horse fossils that Marsh described (and that T.H. Huxley popularized) was a striking example of evolution taking place in a single lineage. Here, one could see the fossil species "Eohippus" transformed into an almost totally different-looking (and very familiar) descendent, Equus, through a series of clear intermediates. Biologists and interested laypeople were justifiably excited.

=========================

Lesson learned.

Anyone tossing the creation text of their Bible under a bus based on the enthusiasm of that 1951 statement from Simpson - would have been totally undercut by that 1953 statement from Simpson.

Why hold the Bible hostage like that?

How could a 50 year fraud be accepted as IF it is an "observed sequence in nature" when in fact "it never happened in nature" and is "lamentable".
 
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Colter

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We have fossils - but then comes the "guesswork" trying to figure out - what came from what and what assumptions to use for dating what we find.

As compared to NO GUESSWORK - observing 50,000 generations of bacteria. No guesswork about the timeline, no guesswork about what comes from what... no guesswork observing the conclusion that at the end of 50,000 generations - 'bacteria are still bacteria"

makes us very hesitant to then 'toss the bible out the window' in favor of junk-science blind-faith -- guesswork.




Indeed that is true.
It's not "junk science" to sincere truth seekers. You just disparage the facts of scientific research because it conflicts with something you believe. The world is full of people who believe things that are not really true.

It is a fact that the fossil record deposited over many different ages show signs of diverse life that lived at different times. That alone, without evolutionary speculation contradicts the Hebrews guesswork in Genesis.
 
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BobRyan

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Outright confession –

"The uniform continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature."—G.G. Simpson, Life of the Past (1953), p. 119.


"I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories??] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs [in the American Museum of Natural History] is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable ..."
Niles Eldredge, as quoted in Luther D Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, 4th ed. 1988, pg 78.
============================

How could a 50 year fraud be accepted as IF it is an "observed sequence in nature" when in fact "it never happened in nature" and is "lamentable".

It's not "junk science" to sincere truth seekers.

I see.. "lamentable" and "never happened in nature" - but not "junk-science" to true believers -- and your argument is that they are "truth seekers" doing that.

Why hijack real science with junk science? As if "real science" is to blame for all of that "it never happened in nature" and is "lamentable".

Is this a description of junk-science? or real science -- "I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories??] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs [in the American Museum of Natural History] is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable ..."

That is not ME saying that - it is atheist evolutionist scientists themselves!!

You just disparage the facts of scientific research because it conflicts with something you believe.

That is not ME quoted as saying "it never happened in nature" and saying "I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories??] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. "

That is your own atheist evolutionist scientist -


It is a fact that the fossil record deposited over many different ages show signs of diverse life that lived at different times. That alone, without evolutionary speculation contradicts the Hebrews guesswork in Genesis.

Thank you for admitting - again - that belief in evolutionism drives toward "downsizing" and "dismissing" the Bible as nothing more than "Hebrews guesswork in Genesis"

HERE there can be no doubt at all - that we are really addressing hard-core details in OP -- in fact in the first two posts.
 
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BobRyan

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Colin Patterson (Senior paleontologist at the British Natural History Museum and author of the Museum’s general text on evolution) in a talk given at the American Museum of Natural History 1981


--------------------- Patterson said -
“Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing…that is true?

"I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural history and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology seminar in the University of Chicago, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said “I know one thing – it ought not to be taught in high school

"...I'm speaking on two subjects, evolution and creationism, and I believe it's true to say that I know nothing whatever about either...One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view, well, let's call it non-evolutionary , was last year I had a sudden realization.

"For over twenty years I had thought that I was working on evolution in some way. One morning I woke up, and something had happened in the night, and it struck me that I had been working on this stuff fortwenty years, and there was not one thing I knew about it. "That was quite a shock that one could be misled for so long...

It does seem that the level of knowledge about evolution is remarkably shallow. We know it ought not to be taught in high school, and perhaps that's all we know about it...

about eighteen months ago...I woke up and I realized that all my life I had been duped into taking evolution as revealed truth in some way."

==========================

That is how a diehard atheist evolutionist scientist lamented the religion that he is 'stuck with' as an atheist.


It's not "junk science" to sincere truth seekers.

Collin Patterson said:
about eighteen months ago...I woke up and I realized that all my life I had been duped into taking evolution as revealed truth in some way."
 
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BobRyan

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Collin Patterson - Paleontologist British Museum of Natural history


On April 10, 1979, Patterson replied to the author (Sunderland) in a most candid letter as follows:


April 10, 1979 Letter from Colin Patterson to Sunderland
======================================================

“ I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.

You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?

I wrote the text of my book four years ago. If I were to write it now, I think the book would be rather different. Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin’s authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it.

Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. As a paleontologist myself, I am much occupied with the philosophical problems of identifying ancestral forms in the fossil record.

You say thatI should at least show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived. I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.[The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test. So, much as I should like to oblige you by jumping to the defence of gradualism, and fleshing out the transitions between the major types of animals and plants, I find myself a bit short of the intellectual justification necessary for the job “

[Ref: Patterson, personal communication. Documented in Darwin’s Enigma, Luther Sunderland, Master Books, El Cajon, CA, 1988, pp. 88-90.]

============================

It's not "junk science" to sincere truth seekers. ..
It is a fact that the fossil record deposited over many different ages show signs of diverse life that lived at different times. That alone, without evolutionary speculation contradicts the Hebrews guesswork in Genesis.

Patterson said:
I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.[The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science,
 
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BobRyan

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hence I argue that we "believe the BIBLE -- instead of junk-science" --

A lot of good science in observable biology, in chemistry and physics does not require junk-science-belief about amoebas "turning into a horse over time - given a sufficiently talented amoeba and a long and sufficiently talented period of time - filled with improbable just-so stories"
 
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sunlover1

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What about another option:
Believe that the Bible is the word of God, reveals the truth about God, his love, his will and the way of salvation, but understand that it needs to be read in context, and that we need to wait on the Spirit to understand whether, and how, to apply that word to us today?

For example, Jesus' words, "if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off", are true. But I wouldn't advise anyone to take what he says literally, and then do it.
Good plan.
Glad to see that you're doing well !!!
 
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Colter

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I see.. "lamentable" and "never happened in nature" - but not "junk-science" to true believers -- and your argument is that they are "truth seekers" doing that.

Why hijack real science with junk science? As if "real science" is to blame for all of that "it never happened in nature" and is "lamentable".

Is this a description of junk-science? or real science -- "I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories??] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs [in the American Museum of Natural History] is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable ..."

That is not ME saying that - it is atheist evolutionist scientists themselves!!



That is not ME quoted as saying "it never happened in nature" and saying "I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories??] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. "

That is your own atheist evolutionist scientist -




Thank you for admitting - again - that belief in evolutionism drives toward "downsizing" and "dismissing" the Bible as nothing more than "Hebrews guesswork in Genesis"

HERE there can be no doubt at all - that we are really addressing hard-core details in OP -- in fact in the first two posts.

...... But that doesn't make the fossil record reflect a YEC event on a 4+ billion year old planet. If the Hebrews creation narrative were by chance true the earth would reflect such, but it is wildly wrong, not even close.


 
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Strong in Him

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hence I argue that we "believe the BIBLE -- instead of junk-science" --

A lot of good science in observable biology, in chemistry and physics does not require junk-science-belief about amoebas "turning into a horse over time - given a sufficiently talented amoeba and a long and sufficiently talented period of time - filled with improbable just-so stories"

Who said anything about an amoeba turning into a horse? That's nonsense - neither scientific nor Scriptural.

The Bible is not a science textbook. Genesis says that God spoke, God created, God saw, God blessed the universe. God is in control, the maker of all things. It was never intended to tell us how God created; all his processes and methods.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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hence I argue that we "believe the BIBLE -- instead of junk-science" --

A lot of good science in observable biology, in chemistry and physics does not require junk-science-belief about amoebas "turning into a horse over time - given a sufficiently talented amoeba and a long and sufficiently talented period of time - filled with improbable just-so stories"
I should have stayed awake in science class.................

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoeba_(genus)

Amoeba (genus)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the genus Amoeba. For other uses, see Amoeba (disambiguation).

Amoeba

Scientific classification
Domain: Eukaryota
(unranked): Amoebozoa
Subphylum: Lobosa
Class: Tubulinea
Order: Euamoebida
Family: Amoebidae
Genus: Amoeba
Bory de Saint-Vincent, 1822[1]
Species

  • Amoeba agilis Kirk, 1907
  • Amoeba gorgonia Pen.
  • Amoeba limicola Rhumb.
  • Amoeba proteus Pal.
  • Amoeba vespertilio Pen.
Amoeba is a genus of single-celled amoeboid protists in the family Amoebidae.[2]
The type species of the genus is Amoeba proteus, a common freshwater organism, widely studied in classrooms and laboratories.[3]

The earliest record of an organism resembling Amoeba was produced in 1755 by August Johann Rösel von Rosenhof, who named his discovery "der kleine Proteus" ("the little Proteus"), after Proteus, the shape-shifting sea-god of Greek Mythology.[4] While Rösel's illustrations show a creature similar in appearance to the one now known as Amoeba proteus, his "little Proteus'' cannot be identified confidently with any modern species.[5]

The term "Proteus animalcule" remained in use throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, as an informal name for any large, free-living amoeboid.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoeba

This article is about the cellular body type. For the genus, see Amoeba (genus). For other uses, see Amoeba (disambiguation).


Chaos carolinense
An amoeba (/əˈmiːbə/; rarely spelled amœba, US English commonly ameba; plural am(o)ebas or am(o)ebae /əˈmiːbiː/),[1] often called amoeboid, is a type of cell or organism which has the ability to alter its shape, primarily by extending and retracting pseudopods.[2] Amoebas do not form a single taxonomic group; instead, they are found in every major lineage of eukaryotic organisms. Amoeboid cells occur not only among the protozoa, but also in fungi, algae, and animals.[3][4][5]

Microbiologists often use the terms "amoeboid" and "amoeba" interchangeably for any organism that exhibits amoeboid movement.[6][7]

Greek amoibḗ change, alternation, akin to ameíbein to exchange

noun, plural amebas, amebae

[uh-mee-bee] (Show IPA)
1.
any of numerous freshwater, marine, or parasitic one-celled protozoa of the order Amoebida, characterized by a granular nucleus surrounded by a jellylike mass of cytoplasm that forms temporary extensions, or pseudopodia, by which the organism moves, engulfs food particles, and forms food vacuoles.
2.
a protozoan of the genus Amoeba, inhabiting bottom vegetation of freshwater ponds and streams: used widely in laboratory studies.




.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
hence I argue that we "believe the BIBLE -- instead of junk-science" --

A lot of good science in observable biology, in chemistry and physics does not require junk-science-belief about amoebas "turning into a horse over time - given a sufficiently talented amoeba and a long and sufficiently talented period of time - filled with improbable just-so stories"

Who said anything about an amoeba turning into a horse?
That's nonsense - neither scientific nor Scriptural.

Indeed it is junk-science evolutionism -- not science not "observations in nature".

If someone here is proposing evolution that does not start with a single-celled animal such as amoeba - and work its way over time to "horse" via a "sufficiently talented and long period of time filled with improbable just-so stories" please show the 'text' of such a proposed evolutionism.

So far -- no one has.

"biology is the study of complicated things that appear to have been designed for a purpose.”
The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p. 1.

Name one well-accepted evolutionist text that says of the micro-biology systems presented in the OP video for a SINGLE CELL -- "none of that evolved".

The Bible is not a science textbook.

Indeed yet the text says that there was a 7 day creation wee, a world wide flood, a virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the bodily ascension of Christ - miracles... all sorts of things you can't (do yourself in the lab).

At what point do you propose that we "believe" the Bible?

Genesis says that God spoke, God created, God saw, God blessed the universe. God is in control

You "quoted you" just then.


Here is what Genesis says -

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made


And also the summary of it spoken by God in the form of legal code - in Ex 20:11

Ex 20:8,11 Remember the Sabbath day to KEEP it holy..
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sbbath day and made it holy.

"details in the text" that are "most to be avoided" in the religion of evolutionism.

That same religion would struggle with any Bible claim for miracle.

Post #2 on this thread -- points that out.
Apr 17, 2016 #2
 
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Strong in Him

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Indeed it is junk-science evolutionism -- not science not "observations in nature".

As far as I know, science does not claim that amoebas can turn into horses or have ever done so.
If you're talking about evolution, that's different. I can't argue it with you because I'm not scientific, but it seems to me that it's still happening - we are told that viruses, or whatever, change, adapt and become resistant to antibiotics or certain medication. Plants may adapt in certain conditions. This has nothing to do with something starting off as an amoeba and gradually turning into a horse over a few hundred years.

Genesis says that God created. It does not say HOW he created, and that could have been by evolution.

If someone here is proposing evolution that does not start with a single-celled animal such as amoeba - and work its way over time to "horse" via a "sufficiently talented and long period of time filled with improbable just-so stories" please show the 'text' of such a proposed evolutionism.

So far -- no one has.

That may be because that is not what happens in evolution and no one is claiming that it does.

Indeed yet the text says that there was a 7 day creation wee, a world wide flood, a virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the bodily ascension of Christ - miracles... all sorts of things you can't (do yourself in the lab).

At what point do you propose that we "believe" the Bible?

I believe all these things as recorded in the Bible.

You "quoted you" just then.

What does that mean??

Here is what Genesis says -

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made

As I asked in my first post, do you really want to know how we read and understand Scripture, or is this thread just an excuse to lecture us about the Sabbath?
 
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Colter

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BobRyan said:
hence I argue that we "believe the BIBLE -- instead of junk-science" --

A lot of good science in observable biology, in chemistry and physics does not require junk-science-belief about amoebas "turning into a horse over time - given a sufficiently talented amoeba and a long and sufficiently talented period of time - filled with improbable just-so stories"



Indeed it is junk-science evolutionism -- not science not "observations in nature".

If someone here is proposing evolution that does not start with a single-celled animal such as amoeba - and work its way over time to "horse" via a "sufficiently talented and long period of time filled with improbable just-so stories" please show the 'text' of such a proposed evolutionism.

So far -- no one has.

"biology is the study of complicated things that appear to have been designed for a purpose.”
The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p. 1.

Name one well-accepted evolutionist text that says of the micro-biology systems presented in the OP video for a SINGLE CELL -- "none of that evolved".



Indeed yet the text says that there was a 7 day creation wee, a world wide flood, a virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the bodily ascension of Christ - miracles... all sorts of things you can't (do yourself in the lab).

At what point do you propose that we "believe" the Bible?



You "quoted you" just then.


Here is what Genesis says -

Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made


And also the summary of it spoken by God in the form of legal code - in Ex 20:11

Ex 20:8,11 Remember the Sabbath day to KEEP it holy..
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sbbath day and made it holy.

"details in the text" that are "most to be avoided" in the religion of evolutionism.

That same religion would struggle with any Bible claim for miracle.

Post #2 on this thread -- points that out.
Apr 17, 2016 #2
By the same token, salvation, belief in God, a relationship with God, doesn't require belief in the perfection of the books that comprise the Bible. Faith in God doesn't require the suspension of common sense or rejection of the fossil record. Faith in God transcends faith in the books of holy men of varying degrees of holiness.
 
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BobRyan

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But you said that was about nature? What I read is that in creation there is revealed the power of God, since He created all. That's what I see this being about. His power and what He can do.

Science does explore "the things that are made" as Romans 1 says - but the atheist world view and the Christian world view are entirely opposed as the context for such observations.
 
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BobRyan

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By the same token, salvation, belief in God, a relationship with God, doesn't require belief in the perfection of the books that comprise the Bible.

Certainly not for Hindus, Buddhists etc. But for those who read the Bible and accept its statements on what scripture is - "inspired by God" and "not subject to private spin doctoring" -- it is "The Word of God" - 2Tim 3:16, 2Pet 1:19-21
 
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BobRyan

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As far as I know, science does not claim that amoebas can turn into horses or have ever done so.

not real science.

But junk-science based religion claims that if you add "a sufficiently long and talented period of time filled with improbable just-so stories" to that talented single-celled animal "origin" for all life - you "sure-enough do get it to turn into a horse" -- as we all know by now.
 
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BobRyan

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Genesis says that God created. It does not say HOW he created

Genesis says it is in a real 7 day week - with evening and morning for each day and "legal code" also confirms this in Ex 20:11.

So we know the time frame for it -- and that God "Spoke" and each set of events occur in that time-boxed Chronological - 7 day sequence.

But we don't know "how" that can happen such that "we can do that in a lab" or any such thing.

, and that could have been by evolution.

The idea that there is an evolutionist text claiming that evolution happened in 7 days with the sun coming into being after plants - is an exercise in fiction.

There are a great many sources saying this is NOT evolutionism Ex 20:8-11
SIX days you shall labor...11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


And as for "what the text says - what is the intended meaning of Genesis 1-11"

Well -- apparently the professors of Hebrew language and OT studies in all world-class universities have a fairly consistent statement on what is 'intended by the text'. Apr 17, 2016 #6
 
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Strong in Him

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Genesis says it is in a real 7 day week - with evening and morning for each day and "legal code" also confirms this in Ex 20:11.

So we know the time frame for it -- and that God "Spoke" and each set of events occur in that time-boxed Chronological - 7 day sequence.

But we don't know "how" that can happen such that "we can do that in a lab" or any such thing.

Sorry, I don't know if I'm being particularly dense or if English is your second language, but I don't understand what you are saying.

If your point is that those who believe the Bible cannot believe evolution, then please say so - and this thread should be in the Creation/evolution part of the forum. Also, I will unsubscribe because I thought you wanted to know how people read and understand Scripture.
 
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Colter

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Certainly not for Hindus, Buddhists etc. But for those who read the Bible and accept its statements on what scripture is - "inspired by God" and "not subject to private spin doctoring" -- it is "The Word of God" - 2Tim 3:16, 2Pet 1:19-21
The bible IS the private interpretation about God and history on the part of those men who wrote it. It's lots of conflicting interpretation by lots of different MEN.

Christianity is largely the private interpretation on the part of Paul about Jesus. The focus shifted from the original gospel of Jesus to a religion about Jesus.
 
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