Believe the Bible - bend the Bible - deny the Bible... pick one

[sculleywr]

Your baton assertion is wrong. You claim that RC and EO are the baton holders that never dropped the baton, yet Rc and Eo cant even agree with each other which shows you dropped something. Your assertions falls apart. Not to mention, its not hard to read scripture and see how your churches look more like carnal Corinthian and Galatia Churches rather than apostles. Asking dead people to pray for you is not something the apostles did, and you have many other things they wouldn't have done either. We have the word of Christ and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. Your problem is that you need to see an unbroken chain of Church authority in order to have faith. Perhaps your faith is not in the right things then. Maybe you should try putting faith in Christ and in his word instead of your church.

Not RCC and EO. I never named the RCC as the true Church. The Orthodox Church holds that Baton.

And if we have dropped it, then not only do you not have the Truth, NO CHRISTIAN has the Truth because Christ is a failed prophet.

1. They are not dead, for there is no death in Christ, and they are in Christ.
2. The problem in Galatia was the Judaizers who were not part of the Church.
3. My Faith is in Christ, that He preserved His Body completely and never left His Church. You're telling me that Christ doesn't really care if we have the whole Truth? In that case, Christ is hateful. Or are you telling me that Christ can't preserve the Church in the Truth? in that case, Christ is weak. In both cases, Christ is well worth rejecting. Why would I follow a Christ who doesn't love me enough to preserve the Truth for me, or is to weak to preserve that Truth for me?

 

[Extraneous]

I reject Prosperity preaching, Apostolic succession, RC and EO canonization (declaring a person to be a saint) i also reject politics and the authority of Church leaders who follow them. I reject glorifying men rather than Christ alone and i reject denomination theology because it causes only division. I reject politics and anything that minds earthly things because our citizenship is in Heaven, as Paul teaches us. Politics cause us to stray from the Path of seeking the kingdom. I see no Church authority which could possibly teach me better than the bible itself could teach me. However, to join a Church would mean to point these errors out and that only causes contention and never resolution, as these forums prove years after year. Therefore i am completely justified in avoiding it. I follow scripture, and my Faith is in Christ. I follow his true apostles as well, such as James, Paul, Peter and John, because Christ is not divided. I however see no apostles today, but only men who claim to be apostles. My faith is in the Word. I am justified in this and i need no mans permission to follow it. Our justification comes from God alone, not from men. Clean your own house first, then talk to me about joining it. Till then however, i cant follow teachers who are blind.

Philippians 3:17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do. 18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.


2 Timothy 4:10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

New King James Version (NKJV)

 

[Extraneous]

So are you cutting yourself off as you are one who does not follow sound doctrine?

You can scream politics into the wind for all I care. It does not change the order of Paul. If you wouldn't follow someone who is imperfect, then don't follow anyone, including that person you find in the mirror. Don't be a Christian.

The fact is you will NEVER find a Church where there are perfect leaders and perfect people. It wasn't true in the time of the Apostles, much less now. Your argument carries exactly the same weight now that the dissenters and people who forsook the gathering of the brethren in the time of Paul carried: none.

Division of your own accord is not justified. Division from something which endangers the doctrine given to the Church by the Apostles is not division enacted by the Church, but by the schismatics and heretics who enact it for themselves.

You got me all wrong, and you misrepresent my argument. Its not about being perfect, but is about following perfect doctrine. I follow Paul, a real apostle, not fake apostles.

 

[sculleywr]

I reject Prosperity preaching, Apostolic succession, RC and EO canonization (declaring a person to be a saint) i also reject politics and the authority of Church leaders who follow them. I reject glorifying men rather than Christ alone and i reject denomination theology because it causes only division. I reject politics and anything that minds earthly things because our citizenship is in Heaven, as Paul teaches us. I see no Church authority which could possibly teach me better than the bible itself could teach me. However, to join a Church would mean to point these errors out and that only causes contention and never resolution, as these forums prove years after year. Therefore i am completely justified in avoiding it. I follow scripture, and my Faith is in Christ. I follow his true apostles as well, such as James, Peter and John, because Christ is not divided. I however see no apostles today, but only men who claim to be apostles. My faith is in the Word. I am justified in this and i need no mans permission to follow it. Our justification comes from God alone, not from men. Clean your own house first, then talk to me about joining it. Till then however, i cant follow teachers who are blind.

Philippians 3:17 Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do. 18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.


2 Timothy 4:10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

New King James Version (NKJV)

You are not justified to avoid joining a church simply because you say division is wrong. You simply make another division, and you have no authority, for you cannot claim your authority is true. Apostolic succession? That's from the first century. Canonization of the Saints is also from the first century, with Polycarp. Icons are from before Christ, having been part of Jewish worship much longer.

marshal all of the scripture quotes you want. You are not obeying Paul by disobeying Paul and becoming your own schism. You are just removing your coal from the fire:

A professing man, who previously had been attending meetings regularly, stopped going. After a few weeks, the Elder of the church decided to visit him. It was a chilly evening. He found the man at home alone, sitting before a blazing fire. Guessing the reason for his friend's visit, the man welcomed him, led him to a comfortable chair near the fireplace and waited. The Elder made himself at home but said nothing. In the grave silence, he contemplated the dance of the flames around the burning logs. After some minutes, he took the fire tongs, carefully picked up a brightly burning ember and placed it to one side of the hearth all alone. Then he sat back in his chair, still silent. The host watched all this in quiet contemplation. As the one lone ember's flame flickered and diminished, there was a momentary glow and then its fire was no more. Soon it was cold and dead. Not a word had been spoken since the initial greeting. The Elder glanced at his watch and realized it was time to leave. He slowly stood up, picked up the cold, dead ember and placed it back in the middle of the fire. Immediately it began to glow, once more with the light and warmth of the burning coals around it.

You are the ember. The question is, will you be alone on the hearth, losing your fire, losing your warmth? Or will you be with the other embers together?

 

[sculleywr]

You got me all wrong, and you misrepresent my argument. Its not about being perfect, but is about following perfect doctrine. I follow Paul, a real apostle, not fake apostles.

You follow your interpretation of Paul, an interpretation he did not intend. I will state without fail that if there is no Church following perfect dogma, then there is no Church at all because the gates of hell prevailed.

 

[Extraneous]

The Church is the Pillar and Ground of the Truth, one Body with one Faith. It is not schismatic. You are schismatic. You believe in things which are new and you are a division unto yourself. You reject the gathering together of the brethren, which means that you reject the Body of Christ. You reject the Body, and so you have a bodiless Head?

Tell me how you can have a head without the body, and I will tell you of my Communion with the Head in His Body.

You twist the meaning of that scripture. The church is supposed to uphold truth, that's how it is the pillar of truth. The scripture is the only Church Authority i recognize. It was written by real apostles, not fake ones. Their word is the pillar of truth. I have eyes, ears, feet and hands. I do not want the eyes of blind men to lead me.

 

[sculleywr]

You twist the meaning of that scripture. The church is supposed to uphold truth, that's how it is the pillar of truth. The scripture is the only Church Authority i recognize. It was written by real apostles, not fake ones. Their word is the pillar of truth. I have eyes, ears, feet and hands. I do not want the eyes of blind men to lead me.

Ok, then how do you know what is Scripture?

If you say God told you, then it is based on your personal experience and choice, not on God's revelation, because as far as anyone else is concerned, nobody saw God reveal the Canon of Scripture to you.

If the Church failed to uphold the Truth, then the gates of hell were fabulously successful in prevailing, because the Church failed in its primary duty.

 

[Extraneous]

You are not justified to avoid joining a church simply because you say division is wrong. You simply make another division, and you have no authority, for you cannot claim your authority is true. Apostolic succession? That's from the first century. Canonization of the Saints is also from the first century, with Polycarp. Icons are from before Christ, having been part of Jewish worship much longer.

marshal all of the scripture quotes you want. You are not obeying Paul by disobeying Paul and becoming your own schism. You are just removing your coal from the fire:

A professing man, who previously had been attending meetings regularly, stopped going. After a few weeks, the Elder of the church decided to visit him. It was a chilly evening. He found the man at home alone, sitting before a blazing fire. Guessing the reason for his friend's visit, the man welcomed him, led him to a comfortable chair near the fireplace and waited. The Elder made himself at home but said nothing. In the grave silence, he contemplated the dance of the flames around the burning logs. After some minutes, he took the fire tongs, carefully picked up a brightly burning ember and placed it to one side of the hearth all alone. Then he sat back in his chair, still silent. The host watched all this in quiet contemplation. As the one lone ember's flame flickered and diminished, there was a momentary glow and then its fire was no more. Soon it was cold and dead. Not a word had been spoken since the initial greeting. The Elder glanced at his watch and realized it was time to leave. He slowly stood up, picked up the cold, dead ember and placed it back in the middle of the fire. Immediately it began to glow, once more with the light and warmth of the burning coals around it.

You are the ember. The question is, will you be alone on the hearth, losing your fire, losing your warmth? Or will you be with the other embers together?

Dont preach to me, preach to yourself. ITs you who cause division, not me. I am simply avoiding it as Paul teaches us. YOu have no idea what you are saying. You read scripture as if the time it was written is the same as today but its not the same. We have no apostles now, and we are in the end times as we have been since the apostles died. We must read scripture with that understanding. WE dont follow other men today as we follow the real apostles who wrote the scripture. No, we instead follow the scripture. WE dont join a Church run by blind men either. I am not the one asserting a denomination, but rather the Word instead. I assert the authority of scripture, which are the instructions of real apostles, not fake ones. My fire burns out getting around people like yourself, and thats what im trying to tell you. Because iniquity will abound, the love of many will grow cold. That iniquity is in division, caused by carnal men who think they are apostles, and who would rather seek an earthly nations prosperity instead of the Kingdom. ITs you who have a shaky foundation, not me. MY foundation is on the word of Christ, who teaches us to putt faith in HIm alone, and its built on the apostles, the real ones, who teach me to put faith in Christ alone. Thats what i do.

 

[Extraneous]

Ok, then how do you know what is Scripture?

If you say God told you, then it is based on your personal experience and choice, not on God's revelation, because as far as anyone else is concerned, nobody saw God reveal the Canon of Scripture to you.

If the Church failed to uphold the Truth, then the gates of hell were fabulously successful in prevailing, because the Church failed in its primary duty.

Don't bother with that fallacy. The scribes gave us the scriptures, yet we don't follow them do we? How blind you are to suggest such a thing. All scripture is inspired by God, and God gives it to us, as Paul has said. IS RC or EO God now? I will not follow your Church or its false authority.

 

[sculleywr]

Dont preach to me, preach to yourself. ITs you who cause division, not me. I am simply avoiding it as Paul teaches us. YOu have no idea what you are saying. You read scripture as if the time it was written is the same as today but its not the same. We have no apostles now, and we are in the end times as we have been since the apostles died. We must read scripture with that understanding. WE dont follow other men today as we follow the real apostles who wrote the scripture. No, we instead follow the scripture. WE dont join a Church run by blind men either. I am not the one asserting a denomination, but rather the Word instead. I assert the authority of scripture, which are the instructions of real apostles, not fake ones. My fire burns out getting around people like yourself, and thats what im trying to tell you. Because iniquity will abound, the love of many will grow cold. That iniquity is in division, caused by carnal men who think they are apostles, and who would rather seek an earthly nations prosperity instead of the Kingdom. ITs you who have a shaky foundation, not me. MY foundation is on the word of Christ, who teaches us to putt faith in HIm alone, and its built on the apostles, the real ones, who teach me to put faith in Christ alone. Thats what i do.

I'm the one causing you to choose to divide yourself from the Church? This is new. I never told you to leave. I refuse to change my dogma, not because I want division. Division is unavoidable when a person refuses to give up the Truth. And if hundreds of years of torture, martyrdom, and various other forms of persecution didn't cause the Orthodox Church to apostatize, neither will a man creating division of himself.

You assert the authority of your personal interpretation of Scripture. I assert the authority of the Faith which was delivered once to the Apostles for every person from then until now, not delivered to you after everyone else got it wrong. Once, for all the saints. The Church is STILL the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

 

[sculleywr]

Don't bother with that fallacy. The scribes gave us the scriptures, yet we don't follow them do we? How blind you are to suggest such a thing. All scripture is inspired by God, and God gives it to us, as Paul has said. IS RC or EO God now? I will not follow your Church or its false authority.

No, The Head of the Orthodox Church is God, for Christ is God and the Head of the Church. He is the leader of the Orthodox Church, and it is His authority which gives the Orthodox Church the power it has had for 2000 years,

And it isn't a fallacy. Without scripture, you have no Canon. The Scripture was given to the Church, which canonized it.

 

[Extraneous]

I'm the one causing you to choose to divide yourself from the Church? This is new. I never told you to leave. I refuse to change my dogma, not because I want division. Division is unavoidable when a person refuses to give up the Truth. And if hundreds of years of torture, martyrdom, and various other forms of persecution didn't cause the Orthodox Church to apostatize, neither will a man creating division of himself.

You assert the authority of your personal interpretation of Scripture. I assert the authority of the Faith which was delivered once to the Apostles for every person from then until now, not delivered to you after everyone else got it wrong. Once, for all the saints. The Church is STILL the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

You are like a child, with a childs understanding. Everything with you is argument based on your love for EO. You divide yourself from other denominations that disagrees with EO. I am doing no different than you are. Will you join a SDA church? No, so why should i join yours, or any other for that matter? Who are you, having a log in your own eye, to judge me? You wont join SDA so dont ask me to join your Church, or any Church, because thats hypocrisy.

 

[Colter]

And did you get that from the Bible?

If so - how did you know not to disbelieve the Bible as you do in other cases?




Peter took your option and when the mob came he went on the offensive -- Christ told him that this was not the plan - Christ said if the plan was to fight - then he had 12 legions of Angels at his command.

John 18 -- it is the Father's plan
10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”

Matt 26
51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus *said to him, “Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?”

John 6
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

=================================

It "appears" that your belief stems more from what others have told you is in the Bible - then from your own reading of it. Possibly this is because you have so much distrust of the Bible from the many stories that have been told to you about it.

Not true at all, I'm very familiar with the Bible. Peter and others had been under the assumption that Jesus was going to be the Jewish Messiah, that he would fight off Israel's enemies and establish an earthly kingdom with power and destruction. They had wrong ideas about the kingdom.

But you ask a good question. I grew up in Christianity and just believed parts without much thought as to why. I'm also a student of the Urantia Book which has additional information.

 

[Extraneous]

No, The Head of the Orthodox Church is God, for Christ is God and the Head of the Church. He is the leader of the Orthodox Church, and it is His authority which gives the Orthodox Church the power it has had for 2000 years,

And it isn't a fallacy. Without scripture, you have no Canon. The Scripture was given to the Church, which canonized it.

SDA dissagrees with you, and so do many other Churches. You are right, i dont have cannon. I have letters written by Paul, long before your Church ever existed. I have the Gospel of Mathew and John as well, that lasted long before your Church existed. You cant edify others with your carnal assertions that we must bow to your Churches fake authority. I will not Pray to dead people for Help. I will not do anything your Church teaches. Your hardheaded promotion of EO only causes division and contention, but then you have the nerve to say you love me. Its in word only however, not in deed. Dont bother me anymore. Go away and argue with someone who cares.

 

[sculleywr]

You are like a child, with a childs understanding. Everything with you is argument based on your love for EO. You divide yourself from other denominations that disagrees with EO. I am doing no different than you are. Will you join a SDA church? No, so why should i join yours, or any other for that matter? Who are you, having a log in your own eye, to judge me? You wont join SDA so dont ask me to join your Church, or any Church, because thats hypocrisy.

By choosing to join myself to a gathering does not mean I divide myself. That is a non sequitir.

Not joining myself to the SDA or other denominations which divided themselves away from the Church in the first place is not me dividing myself from them. It is me acknowledging that a divide exists, one that I did not create. So yes, I will call for people who divide themselves to join the Church, because it is not hypocrisy, unless you change the very definition of the word. You do not follow Christ by cutting yourself off. A cell has no life apart from the body, nor does a Christian have true life without the Body of Christ.

 

[sculleywr]

SDA dissagrees with you, and so do many other Churches. You are right, i dont have cannon. I have letters written by Paul, long before your Church ever existed. I have the Gospel of Mathew and John as well, that lasted long before your Church existed. You cant edify others with your carnal assertions that we must bow to your Churches fake authority. I will not Pray to dead people for Help. I will not do anything your Church teaches. Your hardheaded promotion of EO only causes division and contention, but then you have the nerve to say you love me. Its in word only however, not in deed. Dont bother me anymore. Go away and argue with someone who cares.

How do you know they were written by Paul? Without what the Church has told you, you don't know who wrote the gospels, because they do not identify the writer in them.

And the Authority of the Church is the authority of Christ, for the Head of the Church is Christ.

But if you are going to tell me that YOU have more authority than the Church, I will point you to the head of your church. He can be found in every mirror near you. Every time you see your reflection, you are looking at the reflection of your own Pope, so kiss your ring.

 

[BobRyan]

Not true at all, I'm very familiar with the Bible. Peter and others had been under the assumption that Jesus was going to be the Jewish Messiah, that he would fight off Israel's enemies and establish an earthly kingdom with power and destruction. They had wrong ideas about the kingdom.

He did indeed. But Christ corrected Him stated that the Father's will was the death of Christ and not that Christ lead 12 legions of Angels to defeat the wicked.

But you ask a good question. I grew up in Christianity and just believed parts without much thought as to why. I'm also a student of the Urantia Book which has additional information.

The first thing I find on that is "book that originated in Chicago sometime between 1924 and 1955. The authorship remains a matter of speculation...The Urantia Foundation, a U.S.-based non-profit group, first published The Urantia Book in 1955"

That site says "The book's extensive teachings about the history of the world include its physical development about 4.5 billion years ago, the gradual changes in conditions that allowed life to develop, and long ages of organic evolution that started with microscopic marine life and led to plant and animal life in the oceans, later on land. The emergence of humans is presented as having occurred about a million years ago from a branch of superior primates originating from a lemur ancestor. The first humans are said to have been male and female twins called Andon and Fonta, born "993,419 years prior to 1934."[73][74]"

Which of course would be the sort of "Bible needed" if blind-faith-evolutionism were actually true.

In Ex 20:11 God Himself speaks to the subject of the 7 day creation week - but then we have the "sleeper" of Urantia coming up with Darwinianism "instead". I suggest that the contrast between the two books reveals the opposition in intent and meaning between the two authors.

However at this point we do find some agreement - the religion of evolutionism is much more the religion of Urantia than the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

And it isn't a fallacy. Without scripture, you have no Canon. .

The canon of the Hebrew Bible was settled many centuries before the first Catholic -- in fact 400 years before Christ. Long before Jerome's Vulgate where he himself condemned the Jewish apocrypha as being outside the Canon of the OT text.

so that leaves us with the NT text - the 27 books that are agreed to - and these are books that the NT saints were reading before the 2nd century A.D. -- centuries before the first Catholic.

 

[BobRyan]

But if you are going to tell me that YOU have more authority than the Church, I will point you to the head of your church. He can be found in every mirror near you. Every time you see your reflection, you are looking at the reflection of your own Pope, so kiss your ring.

Are you now Roman Catholic?? Do you declare that the Pope is your leader and the authority that you follow without question?

 

[sculleywr]

The canon of the Hebrew Bible was settled many centuries before the first Catholic -- in fact 400 years before Christ. Long before Jerome's Vulgate where he himself condemned the Jewish apocrypha as being outside the Canon of the OT text.

so that leaves us with the NT text - the 27 books that are agreed to - and these are books that the NT saints were reading before the 2nd century A.D. -- centuries before the first Catholic.

False, there were five canons of Scripture in the time of Christ. Christ used the Septuagint. We know because He quoted directly from it. The early Church used the Septuagint. We know because they quoted directly from it.

And the first Canon of the New Testament was written by Marcion, a heretic.

So thanks, but I don't do alternative history.