LDS Which Church Really Saves?

[tickingclocker]

John Davidson said: ↑
[QUOTE: Actually they can by preaching the gospel and leading people to Christ.

Ultimately Jesus does the saving but churches can be the instrument God uses to reveal himself. QUOTE]

Wrong. Very wrong. There is no "ultimately" about it. The word "absolutely" would be a more precise word. "Ultimately" implies an end process within outside processes. However, Jesus Christ does it ALL. Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, draws the unsaved person to Him. Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, instills the desire to the Christian to share with others their testimony of Him (which also comes--from Him). Jesus Christ then saves the formerly unsaved person.

Where is the instrument's process in all that? A willing spirit--which comes from Him, to witness for Him. It's absolutely ALL Jesus Christ, Savior and Lord, from beginning to end, who saves.

 

[John Davidson]

The church still doesn't save. Those in the church can plant and water, but it's God Who causes the growth.

I think it really depends on the context to which you are speaking of salvation.

Consider the following verse:

Jude 1:23
but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

This verse shows us that we too as Christians can save others by pointing them to Jesus Christ.

Ultimately Jesus saves but we can be the tool that God uses as under shepherds to also save by leading others to Christ.

So my answer to your question is both yes and no. Yes the Church saves but no it doesn't.

 

[John Davidson]

John Davidson said: ↑
[QUOTE: Actually they can by preaching the gospel and leading people to Christ.

Ultimately Jesus does the saving but churches can be the instrument God uses to reveal himself. QUOTE]

Wrong. Very wrong. There is no "ultimately" about it. The word "absolutely" would be a more precise word. "Ultimately" implies an end process within outside processes. However, Jesus Christ does it ALL. Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, draws the unsaved person to Him. Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, gives the desire to the Christian to share with others their testimony of Him (which also comes--from Him). Jesus Christ then saves the formerly unsaved person.

Where is the instrument's process in all that? A willing spirit--which comes from Him, to witness for Him. It's absolutely ALL Jesus Christ, Savior and Lord, from beginning to end, who saves.

The Church can be actively involved in the salvation process. How many people would not hear the word without the Church?

The Church is the body of Christ. As Christ's body the Church is used in saving and leading people to Christ.

 

[John Davidson]

Also the Church administers the sacraments which is part of the salvation process.

 

[John Davidson]

Consider someone drowning and someone else throws in a life preserver.

Now was it the life preserver that saved or was it the person who threw it in the water?

In reality it was both.

In the same way the church is God's tool in the salvation process.

 

[JacksBratt]

I don't think any Church saves. Only Jesus Christ saves.

Some Churches however are closer to the truth than others.

Consider the seven churches in the book of Revelation.

A church that teaches more correct doctrine then has the potential to lead you to a closer relationship with Jesus Christ.

I agree with this post. I would like to add that, though some churches are closer to the truth than others, all have their flaws and, I am sure we will find, their errors in theology.

Denominations are created by man. They are only based on the basic premise of belief or theology of their prospective founding and operating boards of directors.

One church I go to believes in believer baptism for infants with a "declaration of faith" by the baptized person after the age of discernment and by the choice of this particular person declaring their faith.

Another church that I attend, believes in "dedication" of the child to the God, with the parents promising to raise the child in the way of the church belief, gospel teaching and what is determined to be biblical by them. When the child grows up it will be up to that child to make their own decision to follow Christ, or not, and, then, in obedience, be baptized.

I'm not saying this to cause a debate or deviate from the OP. I'm just saying that this sort of thing is not a deal breaker for me as to the church being a true church of Christ's teachings or not.

When all is boiled down, you could be child, raised in the mountains by a hermit family, read the bible, believe the book to be the truth, accept Christ as being the savior and repent, and be a Bible believing child of God without even seeing a church. In fact, even if you didn't have a bible but were told the story, believed and repented......still a child of God. IMO of course.

 

[Vicomte13]

I do not think so.

He was saying that the GREATEST on earth, would be less than the LEAST in heaven.

Maybe read that chapter again.

Read it again. Here is what Jesus says: " Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

The key is that there is somebody who is LEAST in Heaven. There are ranks in heaven. The least in heaven is greater than the greatest on earth, but there are greater and lesser in heaven. That's what that text tells us.

Which means that everybody in heaven is not equal. There are the greater in heaven, and there are the lesser in heaven. Just as there are greater and lesser angels, there are (or will be) greater and lesser humans. Which means that everybody isn't equal in Heaven, and we know that for a fact because Jesus said so.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I understand it's only my opinion. I was raised in an AME (African Methodist Episcopal) church and baptized in a Lutheran church so I have spent plenty of time in Protestant churches and got goose bumps and teary eyed many times. I even taught the kids summer school and an after school program at a Lutheran church so there is nothing wrong with it. I just felt called to the Transubstantiation. There are even still some things I have a hard time believing but I take it on faith an a mystery

Back to the topic at hand. It seems to me that there are many similarities between your denomination and the LDS, not the least being claims of being the One and Only True Church of God.

 

[tickingclocker]

"Super14LDS, post: 69544001, member: 386231"]The Strength of Our Position... ...It really is one or the other when it comes down to authority. It either continued through the apostles to the modern day or it was lost when they died...:

You seem to consistently harp on this one Catholic scholar (who is never named) to justify shoring up this belief in your church's imagined authority an awful lot. Please consider the alternative: one man's opinion, who just so happens to be a scholar, does not a truism make. Maybe only to you. Not to everyone else. Scholars opinions have been found to be off the mark.

I vote for "the other" in this case, where spiritual authority becomes essentially an attempt at power grabbing through falsified means:

As far as spiritual authority being "handed off" through the Apostles "only", if this was what Jesus authorized, why did the Apostle Peter (and the Apostle John) claim that God made ALL believers in Jesus Christ priests (1 Peter 2:4-10; Rev.1:6)? Was Peter in error? Why did Jesus command ALL believers to go into the world to preach the Gospel (Matthew 28:19) if He didn't intend to give these "disciples" His power and authority to do so? (Nobody dispenses their power and authority to someone without first giving them an office.) You would think, if Jesus instructed churches to continue to appoint Apostles after the original ones died off (knowing they would), at least SOME churches would have done so (being instructed by the Apostles themselves to do so). But none did (except the EO). Why? They ALL understood that ALL believers are made priests, holding the authority and power of Jesus Christ Himself. Not just mere "Apostle power".

The LDS is instructed to believer otherwise, through some contrived, non-historical "restoration" project only they can participate in, under their rules. How convenient that unique interpretation is. For them.

1 Peter 2:9. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of His own, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Apostle: noun, 1. any of the early followers of Jesus who carried the Christian message into the world. 2. (sometimes initial capital letter) any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the Gospel: Peter, James, John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, Thaddaeus, Simon, Judas Iscariot.

"You": the “elect resident aliens” scattered throughout Asia Minor. In other words saved believers in Jesus Christ. They could not have been Levite priests, being referred to as a group of "strangers"--who believe in Jesus Christ, nullifying their Jewish office--cobbled together for protection against Roman persecution of Christians (not Jews). Formerly they had not received mercy (implying Gentiles), but now they had, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Peter: A indisputable Jew, who knew without question what a priest, their authority, and their duties were. There could be no misunderstanding or misconception on Peter's part what or who he meant here.

Priest: All priests are divinely appointed by God, and are all given the same, equal authority. If Peter is considered "a man" in this verse, why would he claim such a 'lie', being an Apostle and a Jew?

Related verses:
Revelation 1:5, 6. ...and from Jesus Christ – the faithful Witness, the Firstborn from among the dead, the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the One who loves us and has set us free from our sins at the cost of His own blood, has appointed us as a kingdom, as priests serving his God and Father – to Him be the glory and the power for ever and ever!
[There's another Apostle claiming ALL believers in Jesus Christ are "priests"!]

Isaiah 61:6. But you shall be named priests of the Lord; men shall call you ministers of our God.

No wonder why the official LDS manual on 1 Peter 2:9 COMPLETELY skips around the "royal priesthood" bit.

 

[John Davidson]

Jesus Christ does it ALL.

What's the purpose of the Church then?

 

[John Davidson]

The Catholic Church decided the Bible cannon

No. Protestants have their own cannon of 66 books versus the Roman Catholic cannon of 73.

and gave us the teachings used by all churches today

No. Protestants don't follow Roman Catholic teaching.

 

[John Davidson]

I just felt called to the Transubstantiation.

Did you know that Lutherans have a doctrine similar to transubstantiation called Sacramental Union?

 

[JacksBratt]

What's the purpose of the Church then?

Church is wherever two or three are gathered in Christs name.
Church is a place to worship, learn, fellowship, pray, be comforted, be held accountable, witness, and serve.( I am sure I missed some too)

It is healthy and perpetuates your growth in your relationship with Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Also the Church administers the sacraments which is part of the salvation process.

What sacraments are part of salvation? Are you referirng to baptism? Baptism is not part of the salvation process. It is something we are commanded to do, but it's not part of salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What's the purpose of the Church then?

Christ calls believers the church.

 

[fatboys]

Glad to see that all main stream Christians are unified in the understanding of salvation. Gives me goose bumps

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Jesus saves through His church, not independent of it.

 

[JacksBratt]

What sacraments are part of salvation? Are you referirng to baptism? Baptism is not part of the salvation process. It is something we are commanded to do, but it's not part of salvation.

I agree.

I always look to the thief on the cross that believed and was granted entrance to heaven.

All he did was....... believe.

Now, having said that, salvation is free, but faith without works is dead. The thief never had an opportunity to grow or be part of the body of Christ. We have that opportunity and need to "go and make disciples" and practice our gifts and purpose in the body of Christ. Ya, you're in the door but that's not where we stop. We need to be a light to the world.

 

[St_Worm2]

... First, all mortals have been saved from the permanence of death through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22). ... https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/04/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng

Hi S14LDS, your quote from your linked article pulled from its context makes it seem like the LDS believe in the universal salvation of every man and woman who has ever lived. In context however, it appears to be something quite different. For instance, if we add in the two sentences that follow your quote (posited above) we read:

As to salvation from sin and the consequences of sin, our answer to the question of whether or not we have been saved is “yes, but with conditions.” Our third article of faith declares our belief:

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind MAY be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (A of F 1:3).​

We further read:

Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him” (D&C 76:40–43; emphasis added).

The prophet Brigham Young taught that doctrine when he declared that “every person who does not sin away the day of grace, and become an angel to the Devil, will be brought forth to inherit a kingdom of glory” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 288).​

Not that men can "become an angel" (either of Satan or of the Lord), but I think you'd agree that the LDS HARDLY teach that "ALL mortals have been saved from the permanence of death"!

edit: I also just saw that Phoebe Ann pointed out other LDS official statements that basically state that apart from the Mormon Church, no one will be saved.

So salvation, according to the LDS, is the result of 1) membership in the Mormon Church and 2) obedience to all of its laws and ordinances.

This is a far cry from Christianity and the Bible which both teach that salvation is by grace through faith apart from works of any kind (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5 .. John 3:16; John 3:18; John 5:24; John 20:31; Romans 4:5; Romans 10:9-10; 1 John 5:13.........................................).

Those born, "in Adam", all die. Only those who are born again, "in Christ", will be made alive.

Yours and His,
David

 

[A New Dawn]

Also the Church administers the sacraments which is part of the salvation process.

Which sacraments are part of the salvation process?