Evilution VS Evolution

[Hoghead1]

Don't you have a job and debt to the bank?

"Slavery" has negative associations because man has been an animal towards his fellow man and trading and treating slaves like they're animals.
God does not think that's okay.
Slavery in the Bible is descriptive, not prescriptive.
But it is prescriptive that you treat eachother well.

Yes, I do have heavy debts, but that isn't slavery for me. Yes, the Bible is prescriptive, saying go ahead with slavery if you want to. NO, I don't think OK'ed or allowed that. However, I do think our freedom greatly limits God's power. I think the whole notion of an omnipotent Deity is a major theological mistake.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So, are you saying that "before the fall", our eyes weren't backwards and we didn't have a blind spot?

This is one of the most absurd things that I have heard even though the skeptics and scoffers have a very long list of absurdity in their repertoire.

 

[PsychoSarah]

This is one of the most absurd things that I have heard even though the skeptics and scoffers have a very long list of absurdity in their repertoire.

Did you not know that the human eye has components that are backwards and that we have blind spots in our vision? There are actually a number of fun ways to actively notice the latter.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Tell that to children dying of hunger, disease, war etcetera....

Wouldn't it be better for all of us to be participating in such a message?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Yes, I do have heavy debts, but that isn't slavery for me. Yes, the Bible is prescriptive, saying go ahead with slavery if you want to. NO, I don't think OK'ed or allowed that. However, I do think our freedom greatly limits God's power. I think the whole notion of an omnipotent Deity is a major theological mistake.

There actually is no "slavery" in the Bible because they were considered to be bond servants. A countryman could only serve for 7 years. A foreigner could serve for 49 years. This is what the Jubilee is all about. The Jubilee was every 7 years and the Golden Jubilee was every 49 years. So a contract or what a person was worth was based on when the next Jubilee was. This is an object lesson and represents bondage to sin. Only the Blood of Jesus can set us free. Today it is very common for people to sign two year contracts. Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore for example have two year contracts. They call them contract laborers. IN China they have a national holiday one week out of the year. There are up to 20% of the work force that does not return to their job after the holiday. They usually find a different job somewhere else. Often in a different line of work.

indentured servant definition. A person under contract to work for another person for a definite period of time, usually without pay but in exchange for free passage to a new country. During the seventeenth century most of the white laborers in Maryland and Virginia came from England as indentured servants.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

This romantic / poetic stuff isn't helping the point either.

Look man... claims about "design" are being made.
Flaws in those arguments are being pointed out.

And they are brushed aside with a handwave.

Making the best of what we have instead of complaining is "romantic /poetic stuff"? Not at all. I think, in other situations outside of this particular argument you could see the merits in such a principle, but for some reason this particular topic causes you to see it different. It looks to me like a bias.

And, your claims about design boil down to, "God isn't real because if he was then he would have given me the body I believe I deserve". Not brushed aside; accurately discerned.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Did you not know that the human eye has components that are backwards and that we have blind spots in our vision? There are actually a number of fun ways to actively notice the latter.

So are you suggesting that the theory of evolution is bogus and does not work? Just how is it that natural selection would select something that is "backwards"?

 

[DogmaHunter]

OK, but in the first place, what kind of a design are we talking about?

The supposed "design" that is being claimed by ID folks.

Much science has so deromanticized and dehumanized nature that it appears downright boring and aesthetically uninteresting. I think we need to consider a more romantic concept of design.

That doesn't make any sense to me.

Facts are facts and reality is what it is.

 

[DogmaHunter]

This is one of the most absurd things that I have heard even though the skeptics and scoffers have a very long list of absurdity in their repertoire.

I'm just responding to your own claims that the "flaws" that we are pointing out are some kind of effect of "the fall".

That's what YOU said. Do you wish to retract that statement?

For clarity, let me remind you of what you responded in post 161 to my list of "design flaws":

This is exactly right in that the theory of evolution does not take the fallen condition of man and this world into consideration. The Bible shows us we are in need of a redeemer and redemption to fix these problems that you try to use as evidence for evolution

Emphasis mine. Note the bold parts.
That IS what you said right? That the problems I noted only exist "because of the fall"?
Why then, is it "absurd" to assume that stating such a thing means that you believe that these problems did NOT exist before this supposed "fall"?

If that isn't what you meant, then please clarify what you meant, because I don't see how I can understand it in any other way...................

Or, you know... retract the statement.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Making the best of what we have instead of complaining is "romantic /poetic stuff"? Not at all.

It is, when that is what you have to respond with to the points being raised.

I never claimed that we souldn't make the best of what we have. That's just another distraction through emotional appeals.

Wheter we like it or not, wheter we make the best of it or not, it stays nothing short of fact that our eyes have a blind spot, our mouth is too small for all our teeth, most people get lower backpains, etc.

Why is it so hard to simply acknowledge these facts?

I think, in other situations outside of this particular argument you could see the merits in such a principle, but for some reason this particular topic causes you to see it different. It looks to me like a bias.

There's nothing "biased" about pointing out that building a mouth that is too small for all the teeth to fit in, is a bad design.

There's nothing "biased" about pointing out that an eye which doesn't require extra-energy consuming resource, is more efficient then one that does.

There's nothing "biased" about pointing out that the majority of people get lower backpains because of walking erect.

And, your claims about design boil down to, "God isn't real because if he was then he would have given me the body I believe I deserve".

As I have said multiple times already, that is not what I'm saying.

What I actually said was that such design flaws are not what we would expect from an "all-powerfull, all-knowing" being, but exactly what we would expect from a blind process like evolution.

Not brushed aside; accurately discerned.

In this case, it's rather "strawmanned".

 

[Hieronymus]

Yes, I do have heavy debts, but that isn't slavery for me.

Right, but when you don't work, you will eventually loose your house.

Yes, the Bible is prescriptive, saying go ahead with slavery if you want to.

That's not a prescription.

The "better off" have always employed the less well off.
Working to make and sustain a living.
You can do this the right way or the wrong way as a 'boss' or as an employee.

When the Bible speaks of slavery it does not refer to or condone chained people in cages treated like disposable animals.

 

[Hieronymus]

Wouldn't it be better for all of us to be participating in such a message?

What, you mean explaining away human misery?
People normally don't choose evil, life bestows evil upon people.
Some people just have a lot of intensely bad luck.
Or they're so misearble, they want to end it all...

You probably meant the message: "make the best of it", but that's like saying: "breathe to live" i.m.o.
We all to try to make the best of it and be a good person along the way.
We try to find our stable place in society, our niche, to give some meaning to life, to make a home.

 

[TLK Valentine]

So are you suggesting that the theory of evolution is bogus and does not work?

Actually, that's what you're saying -- in favor of an "intelligent" designer that puts parts in backwards.

Just how is it that natural selection would select something that is "backwards"?

Because backwards is good enough to get the job done... just not particularly intelligent.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Right, but when you don't work, you will eventually loose your house.That's not a prescription.

The "better off" have always employed the less well off.
Working to make and sustain a living.
You can do this the right way or the wrong way as a 'boss' or as an employee.

When the Bible speaks of slavery it does not refer to or condone chained people in cages treated like disposable animals.

Whenever you engage in defense of a practice like slavery (ie: treating humans as your personal, private property), all kinds of red alarm lights should be going off in your head.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

You probably meant the message: "make the best of it",

What's the alternative?

What, you mean explaining away human misery?
People normally don't choose evil, life bestows evil upon people.
Some people just have a lot of intensely bad luck.

That doesn't fit with the examples you gave, though. There's enough resource on this planet to feed everyone. Humans make choices to grab the land and then charge payment for what it yields. They make choices to overstock grocery stores and then throw away large portions of it. They make choices to burn/destroy excess crops so as not to devalue the market price. And, sure enough, while some do well, others suffer the consequences of that behavior.

It's the same with a large variety of problems on the planet. There are a large variety of laws which attempt to address these problems, but there is no number of laws which can police every situation. That is the purpose of morality, conscience, integrity and loyalty. It was like that in the OT. God used a whole heap of laws as part of the burgeoning human education but as quickly became evident the laws made little difference if people didn't want to keep them.

That was the backdrop for Jesus; the OT showed that there is good merit in law but unless people come to understand the reason, meaning, and purpose behind a law they will invariably go against those laws. Jesus' teachings are all about getting the spirit of the rules, so that we will shift away from obeying just because we're told to, to obeying because we agree with the reasons for the rules.

Imagine how different the world could be if we made morality and judgment classes just as mandatory, if not more so, than the basics like reading, writing, and arithmetic right from the first year of school. But those things are not a priority, so many people grow up in "money makes the world go round" society where they're taught that they can do what they want so long as they have either the intelligence, cash, or power to get away with it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

So are you suggesting that the theory of evolution is bogus and does not work?

How you concluded that from what Sarah said, is a mystery to me.
However, such reading comprehension problems would explain a few things...

Just how is it that natural selection would select something that is "backwards"?

Because a backwards eye is still better then no eye.

 

[AV1611VET]

Whenever you engage in defense of a practice like slavery (ie: treating humans as your personal, private property), all kinds of red alarm lights should be going off in your head.

Scientists -- still fighting the Civil War.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Scientists -- still fighting the Civil War.

Indeed -- after the Christians lost.

 

[Hieronymus]

Because backwards is good enough to get the job done...

You should know.

 

[Hieronymus]

What's the alternative?

My point exactly...