Where did the laws of nature come from?

[Sultan Of Swing]

So writes a man.

Written by man inspired by God.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Historically? So you were referring to the historical definition as used in the 19th-20th century or some such? Why? SI units were introduced to avoid this confusion, ironically.

Well, in some ways the question only makes sense historically, due exactly to what you're pointing out. Originally, the meter was some fraction of the circumference of the earth, and then it was the length of some platinum bar in Paris (because that was better than trying to measure the distance to the North Pole every time you wanted to make a new meter stick). But now the meter is defined as 'how far light goes in 1/299792458th of a second' (because that's better than trying to measure some century old bar). So the speed of light is now officially constant as a matter of units, since our definition of the meter depends on the speed of light. Even if the speed of light changed, the meter would change with it to keep the value of the speed of light the same.

There is nothing fundamentally constant about vacuum permittivity or vacuum permeability, it entirely depends on the system you're using.

The value depends on the system of units, but the fact that it is constant does not.

The Coulomb force is proportional to the product of the charges divided by the inverse square of the distance. The constant of proportionality is essentially epsilon (in whatever units you're using). If it were not a constant, then Coulomb's Law would be wrong.

 

[Loudmouth]

Written by man inspired by God.

So claims a man.

 

[Derek Meyer]

Hang on are you asking the reasons for God's existence or why God should exist in the first place? I thought you were asking for reasons we can believe He exists, not why there should be a God in the first place.

For the latter, I already answered it:

So, no reason? God just exists for no reason?

So, there's no reason for God existing?

 

[Derek Meyer]

Going into reasons for God's existence would derail the topic.

I disagree. Why does God exist? What's the reason for God existing? It's very, very relevant to the topic.

 

[Gracchus]

I don't know it for sure. But same to you, I can easily say:
There is zero evidence to say it did not happen.

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

So writes a man.

Written by man inspired by God.

So writes a man who passes a collection plate, and wants to sell you a guilt(!)-edged leather-bound Bible.

 

[lesliedellow]

So writes a man who passes a collection plate, and wants to sell you a guilt(!)-edged leather-bound Bible.

He wouldn't sell me one. I have already got one which cost me £380.

Scandalising an atheist is one of my favourite pastimes.

 

[juvenissun]

So writes a man who passes a collection plate, and wants to sell you a guilt(!)-edged leather-bound Bible.

You do not have to buy it. But you do not know that you are guilty either.
Students spend big $$$ to buy what?

 

[TLK Valentine]

You do not have to buy it. But you do not know that you are guilty either.

Guilty of what?

Students spend big $$$ to buy what?

An education -- hopefully in something useful.

 

[Gracchus]

Scandalising an atheist is one of my favourite pastimes.

I actually had to look up "scandalize" (American spelling):
"scan·dal·ize VERB
shock or horrify (someone) by a real or imagined violation of propriety or morality:
"their lack of manners scandalized their hosts"
synonyms: shock · appall · outrage · horrify · disgust · revolt · repel · [more]
sailing
reduce the area of (a fore-and-aft sail) by lowering the head or raising the boom."
Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press

The shock I got over when I was five. The outrage I try to replace with understanding. I am still appalled and horrified. I struggle with my revulsion by coming to this site and others and desensitizing myself, familiarizing myself with the human "religious" delusion.

But, to return to your "pastime", I have noted that religious people do have some (to me) odd pastimes. They believe utterly ridiculous things. They will, given the ability and leeway, fight holy wars, torture and kill "heretics", and they will turn their backs on the sick and the hungry, or enslave the helpless, and hold themselves forgiven for behavior they continue to practice, forgiven simply because they proudly and publicly subscribe to nonsense. (They call it "faith".) They will send their sons (and daughters) off to be sacrificed on the altar of war. They will pray to a statue, an image, a piece of cloth, a fragment of bone, a splinter of wood, a ridiculous idea, and they will demand others do so too. Of course not all religious folk do all of those things, and non-religious folks do some of them too, but religious folk do them as a matter of principle. Some of religious folk have even been known to molest children, and some even (gasp!) vote Republican!!
How could I not be appalled, outraged, horrified, disgusted, revolted and repelled? Your feeble attempts to scandalize are at the quantum level: an absolutely minimum, single data point among a statistical population of billions.

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." --- Matthew 7:13,14, ESV

Maybe you should try to inspire and instruct, instead of scandalize?

We have strayed from the subject. (Again!) But, then, perhaps we are still discussing the "Laws of nature", and nature's God?

 

[Gracchus]

You do not have to buy it.

Well, I did spend big bucks for the Anchor Bible, and I bought a whole bunch of different versions on CD-ROM, but no guilt-edged, gilt-edged, or leather bound copies.

But you do not know that you are guilty either.

I have some bad habits, which I freely admit. Which do you think I an unaware of? "Enquiring minds want to know."

Students spend big $$$ to buy what?

They buy, with money, time and effort, a degree.

 

[juvenissun]

I have some bad habits, which I freely admit. Which do you think I an unaware of? "Enquiring minds want to know."

Christians try very hard to increase the sensitivity to sin.
If sensitivity is low, then you do not know what you have (know) and don't have (know).
Before I turned into a Christian, I felt that I was a very good man. I did not have ANY bad habit.

 

[Gracchus]

Christians try very hard to increase the sensitivity to sin.

I've noticed. They seem to be especially sensitive to sin in others. Most seem to have missed the memo about motes and beams.

If sensitivity is low, then you do not know what you have (know) and don't have (know).

Perhaps God gifted me with low sensitivity so that I wouldn't vomit when passing churches. ("Mysterious ways!", you know.)

Before I turned into a Christian, I felt that I was a very good man. I did not have ANY bad habit.

And now that you have "turned into a Christian", what has changed?

 

[juvenissun]

And now that you have "turned into a Christian", what has changed?

I become a worse person and a better person at the same time.
Sigh. You may understand. But you don't.

 

[Gracchus]

I become a worse person and a better person at the same time.
Sigh. You may understand. But you don't.

Perhaps! But then, had you been a worse person you might be a better one. I am content to do my best and to leave judgments, even of myself, to someone better qualified. Wallowing in guilt is a particularly destructive kind of pride. I have noticed that many Christians think themselves more moral because they publicly beat their breasts, chanting, "Mea culpa." There are as many flagellants among protestants as there ever were among Roman Catholics. It is a form of public piety your rabbi warned about.

And not to continue beating a dead horse, this is still the forum for "Physical & Life Sciences".

 

[juvenissun]

Perhaps! But then, had you been a worse person you might be a better one. I am content to do my best and to leave judgments, even of myself, to someone better qualified. Wallowing in guilt is a particularly destructive kind of pride. I have noticed that many Christians think themselves more moral because they publicly beat their breasts, chanting, "Mea culpa." There are as many flagellants among protestants as there ever were among Roman Catholics. It is a form of public piety your rabbi warned about.

And not to continue beating a dead horse, this is still the forum for "Physical & Life Sciences".

Pride is a value for the world. It is poisonous for Christians.
The less pride a Christian has, the more "pride" a Christian will have.

I forgot how did this non-science talk started. You may ended it right now.

 

[Gracchus]

Pride is a value for the world. It is poisonous for Christians.
The less pride a Christian has, the more "pride" a Christian will have.

It's kind of insidious, even if you add quotation marks. I remember reading of a monk giving a tour of his monastery's catacombs, who chanced to remark, "Our order is famous for humility."

I forgot how did this non-science talk started.

It started off when someone attempted to claim a Bible story as evidence.

You may ended it right now.

I am glad to get your permission.

 

[juvenissun]

It's kind of insidious, even if you add quotation marks. I remember reading of a monk giving a tour of his monastery's catacombs, who chanced to remark, "Our order is famous for humility."

The monk is much much better than me.

 

[Gracchus]

The monk is much much better than me.

There is another story of a monk before his abbot, to whom he had just confessed his sin of pride, and throwing himself on the floor, the monk groaned, "Vermis sum!" ("I am a worm!") To which the abbot replied, "Adhuc iactatus!" ("Still bragging!") It is still bragging to parade how sinful you are, a form of false humility. One has no more right to judge one's own sins than one has the right to judge those of others.

 

[juvenissun]

There is another story of a monk before his abbot, to whom he had just confessed his sin of pride, and throwing himself on the floor, the monk groaned, "Vermis sum!" ("I am a worm!") To which the abbot replied, "Adhuc iactatus!" ("Still bragging!") It is still bragging to parade how sinful you are, a form of false humility. One has no more right to judge one's own sins than one has the right to judge those of others.

It sounds like a version of Zen conversation.
Is it a judgement if one used a feature or an object to describe a status?
What the abbot said is very good. But the comment from the interpreter is not. Just like an outsider have no way to really understand the meaning of a reply from a Zen master.