Witches, wizards and the occult

[dms1972]

lol. this thread sure touched a nerve.

 

[Cearbhall]

Its not really something one can gauge whether it is over, so it wouldn't say what she said was 'blatantly false', as its died down a bit at least hasn't it? It will continue with its loyal supporters I suppose for a while, but all the hype it had behind it is over.

Er, no. There's a new blockbuster movie trilogy starting later this year, and a new theme park just opened. If that's not hype, I don't know what is.

lol. this thread sure touched a nerve.

I'm still hoping it's a joke, but it doesn't seem like it.

 

[SnowyMacie]

This thread is starting to remind me of this comic (just insert whatever interest you would like to make fun of in the first speech bubble)...

 

[dms1972]

.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I'm too busy contacting the Illuminati to figure out why I never got a raise.

While you're at it, please remind them they still owe me my bonus from last year and my secret decoder ring.

I'll go if you have some magic spell that will make it so I can go on the 6 3/4ths day of the week so that there are not crowds of muggles everywhere!

No need for a magic spell. Just wait for one of the five days of the year when it's raining or has dropped below 55 and all of LA goes into hibernation mode for self-preservation, and then go.

Or adopt a few Harry Potter-enthused grandkids and make standing in line with others who are as exuberant part of the experience. My parents said some of the lines on opening day were three hours long, but it was surprisingly tolerable because of the conversations and spirit of excitement. My sisters are 10 and 8 and never complained once that day about anything. They were completely blissed out.

 

[dms1972]

My parents said some of the lines on opening day were three hours long, but it was surprisingly tolerable because of the conversations and spirit of excitement. My sisters are 10 and 8 and never complained once that day about anything. They were completely blissed out.

Realistically it would be normal to feel a bit impatient waiting for three hours in a queue for anything...if they felt so accepting of it all then I'd guess its all done by psychological conditioning and manipulation. Some highly organised holiday camps function that way.

"Take for example, the extraordinary success of Butlin's vacation camps in Great Britain. Butlin grasped the fact than in a world at once depersonalising in the extreme, the vacation most men prefer must be a genuine vacumn, and ever greater depersonalisation which gives the impression of freedom but which never allows the individual to come face to face with himself, even materially... Everything takes place in a spirit of gaiety and liveliness and under the direction of game leaders who are 'specialists'...The whole thing represents an elaborate and rigourous enterprise for becoming unconscious, carried out by technique described in detail by Butlin. Butlin minces no words. The problem, as he sees it, is to make his customers systematically lose consciousness, not as before political motives, but for motives of pure entertainment. Here is technique put to the service of a kind of Pascalian distraction. Not exactly the same kind, since it is not so much a matter of dodging the dilema of man facing eternity as of dodging the conflict of man and his situation in this life... " Jacques Ellul - The Technological Society

What you report sounds somewhat like what Ellul is describing.

Maybe the sort of thing CS Lewis described as 'an evil enchantment of worldliness.'

"Do you think I am trying to weave a spell? Perhaps I am; but remember your fairy tales. Spells are used for breaking enchantments as well as for inducing them. And you and I have need of the strongest spell that can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment of worldliness which has laid upon us for nearly a hundred years." The Weight of Glory - CS Lewis

http://www.verber.com/mark/xian/weight-of-glory.pdf

 

[dms1972]

Yeah..no. Harry Potter is the most popular book series in my generation, by far. You can't compare it in terms of popularity, and it turned J.K. Rowling into a billionaire. Not to mention it's the best selling book series of all time.

Actually Lord of the Rings is the biggest seller, and the Hobbit the second biggest. In third place in most lists would be The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry.

I think the best literature leads readers on to explore other literary works of quite different sorts, rather than leave the reader glum and only looking forward to the next Harry Potter book / movie / spinoff. That is not what getting kids back into reading is about.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Realistically it would be normal to feel a bit impatient waiting for three hours in a queue for anything...if they felt so accepting of it all then I'd guess its all done by psychological conditioning and manipulation. Some highly organised holiday camps function that way.

My little sisters have been psychologically conditioned to have gratitude, to be sociable, and to adapt positively to their circumstances. It wasn't like they were in a three-hour line at the bank or in some other mundane circumstance. Attending the opening day festivities at Universal Studios was a very special event they and their friends had been looking forward to for months, with rocketing elation. They had been adequately prepared to anticipate massive crowds and queues, and my parents had come equipped with card games and other activities for them to enjoy with their friends while waiting. I did not write that they never felt a twinge of impatience; I have no doubt that they did, but they are polite kids who aren't prone to whining or complaining. I also didn't state that it was merely a day of standing in lines. A few of the most popular attractions had three hour lines, but there were ample activities that didn't require that time commitment. As I explained, waiting in line was surprisingly tolerable because of the pervading jubilance and the sense of community over a common joy. There were happy people of all ages and from around the world who'd made arrangements to be there that day. They met a newlywed couple from Australia, a family from Germany, and many others who were as enthusiastic as they were.

I don't know if the 1972 in your user name signifies your birth year. If it does then you're 26 years older than I am, and well over 30 years the elder of my little sisters. Perhaps you've forgotten the delights of childhood. The deliciousness of anticipation, the way you can bond with your friends over a shared enthusiasm, the ebullience of adventure. Perhaps if you're not a parent you don't understand the pleasure of seeing bliss in your children, and how that makes things like long lines worthwhile. You are not a part of the generation that grew up reading Harry Potter books. I do think those who had them as part of our childhood have a special fondness that adults cannot replicate, though people of all ages have delighted in the series. As C.S Lewis said, “A children's story that can only be enjoyed by children is not a good children's story in the slightest.” Harry Potter has appealed to octogenarians as well as eight-year-olds.

You are wildly incorrect about it being a fading "hype" or "about as popular as Donald Duck still is". The Wall Street Journal, LA Times, NY Times, and several other leading newspapers have written articles about the popularity of Harry Potter and the significance of the new attraction at Universal Studios, and how it could make it a rival to Disneyland in terms of desirability to tourists and locals.

"Take for example, the extraordinary success of Butlin's vacation camps in Great Britain. Butlin grasped the fact than in a world at once depersonalising in the extreme, the vacation most men prefer must be a genuine vacumn, and ever greater depersonalisation which gives the impression of freedom but which never allows the individual to come face to face with himself, even materially... Everything takes place in a spirit of gaiety and liveliness and under the direction of game leaders who are 'specialists'...The whole thing represents an elaborate and rigourous enterprise for becoming unconscious, carried out by technique described in detail by Butlin. Butlin minces no words. The problem, as he sees it, is to make his customers systematically lose consciousness, not as before political motives, but for motives of pure entertainment. Here is technique put to the service of a kind of Pascalian distraction. Not exactly the same kind, since it is not so much a matter of dodging the dilema of man facing eternity as of dodging the conflict of man and his situation in this life... " Jacques Ellul - The Technological Society

What you report sounds somewhat like what Ellul is describing.

Maybe the sort of thing CS Lewis described as 'an evil enchantment of worldliness.'

"Do you think I am trying to weave a spell? Perhaps I am; but remember your fairy tales. Spells are used for breaking enchantments as well as for inducing them. And you and I have need of the strongest spell that can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment of worldliness which has laid upon us for nearly a hundred years." The Weight of Glory - CS Lewis

http://www.verber.com/mark/xian/weight-of-glory.pdf

As C.S. Lewis also said, "What you see and what you hear depends a great deal on where you are standing. It also depends on what sort of person you are.” You are seeing and hearing the negative in my post, which was written with open cheerfulness about a happy experience for my family, because you're standing in a place of sanctimonious condemnation looking for the chance to be critical. If you dislike the Harry Potter series, that's perfectly fine. You're entitled to your feelings. But do you grasp how audaciously rude and completely off-kilter your post is? It's one thing for you to be snarky and haughty in your posts to other members here, but when you decide to make offensive insinuations about children related to them, it's catapulting way over the line.

 

[Rhamiel]

Revelation 22:14-15
14Blessed are they that wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb: that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[keith99]

...
I don't know if the 1972 in your user name signifies your birth year. If it does then you're 26 years older than I am, and well over 30 years the elder of my little sisters. Perhaps you've forgotten the delights of childhood. The deliciousness of anticipation, the way you can bond with your friends over a shared enthusiasm, the ebullience of adventure. Perhaps if you're not a parent you don't understand the pleasure of seeing bliss in your children, and how that makes things like long lines worthwhile. You are not a part of the generation that grew up reading Harry Potter books. I do think those who had them as part of our childhood have a special fondness that adults cannot replicate, though people of all ages have delighted in the series. As C.S Lewis said, “A children's story that can only be enjoyed by children is not a good children's story in the slightest.” Harry Potter has appealed to octogenarians as well as eight-year-olds.
....

Bolding mine.

I'm not too sure of that. My last boss was in the position where he was pretty much always on call. I can think of only 3 exceptions. His anniversary, the death of his father and Harry Potter film openings. I can't prove it has exactly the same magic for him as for children, but I'll say it is pretty close.

I have not forgotten the delights of childhood. I think that perhaps seeing them visibly played out in front of me might well be the only thing that could get me through some of those lines.

 

[dms1972]

To Stanfordella

it was your term 'blissed out' caught my attention that was all.

I simply made the comment it would be normal for any kids (or adults) to feel frustrated or bored in a long queue. No seeing negative there.

I wanted to hear about it it in realistic terms. I haven't condemned you at all, or done any of the things you claim, my conscience is clear on that. I was making a comment about the Theme Park based on what I had read of in other entertainment settings and wondering if the same kind of thing was going on - as the forums are for discussion.

I don't dispute for a moment your sisters are well brought up and i never made any suggestion otherwise (no need to speak greek when refering to traditional ways parent raise their kids or use terms like 'psychologically conditioned'). I said psychological conditioning because thats an impersonal form of managing masses of people, that has become more prevalent in the modern world.

None of my other comments were directed to you, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Yes I do remember my childhood I went to Disney World on Ice when I was in my teens, lasted about three or four hours - you could buy disney refreshments of course at any point for about the equivalent today I'd guess of £5 for a carton of lemonade. This is going back a bit I think it was about £2.00 a carton then and that was about 25 years ago. It had an impression of being special disney pop that people wanted to try but turned out it was just coca cola. We joked with the folks sitting in front of us who had come with four kids and were clocking up the £££ pretty fast, they joked that they would probably need to talk to the bank manager afterwards.

I came home on a high - extolling it, and it was very well preformed. But there was something just a little too idyllic about it I thought afterwards. People accepted their wallets being raided a little too easily.

It is the case that there is an applied psychology being used on people at times as for instance in the Butlins enviroment, its not a conspiracy theory - Billy Butlin was fairly open about it.


Anyway Sorry for any misunderstanding, no offense intended.

 

[dms1972]

They call it fantasy but it opens up to a spiritual realm thats ungodly...

Yes fantasy can be ungodly, but the imagination may be baptised and brought under Christ's Lordship, and when this is the case those with writing gifts may serve God by writing christian fairy-tales and stories.

 

[dms1972]

In the case of ouija, it's the ideomotor reflex. Minuscule muscle responses from largely subconscious thoughts. In other words there's nothing paranormal about it--subconscious thoughts and expectations can result in such small muscle responses that it can seem that an outside force is causing movement. If someone was legitimately interested to find out if there was some sort of mysterious spiritual force behind the ouija board they would see if the thing would move on its own without anyone touching it. Notice that this never happens. Also notice that ouija boards are sold in the same aisle where you can buy Clue or Sorry. It's a toy, a meaningless toy.

I never knew that, and that hopefully is the only way it works. But do people opening up to this not still risk becoming oppressed by demons, even if they are not moving the glass or whatever? It seems they do, and I have have read testimonies that for some many problems began with curiously exploring these things.

Its really not worth investigating as I have read of christians who did experiencing spiritual difficulties following and losing all interest in the Bible. One man who was in training to become a vicar had to resign because when he approached the altar or the pulpit he had to overcome a dreadful inner resistance.

There was a tragic case I read about not involving a Ouija Board but fortune telling - a 18 year old girl was told by a fortune teller that she would die when she was twenty. Of course the fortune teller didn't have any knowledge of the future. But the suggestion was put in the young woman's psyche and it worked in a backwards way to the manner Jesus commended people of faith. Sadly she never had any intervention by a mature Christian who could have authoratively broke the power of the suggestion. As her 20th Birthday approached she became more and more troubled and worried, and though she didn't die on her birthday, the emotional turmoil put her in an Psychiatric Hospital and she died two years later. The person writting about this Kurt Koch was experienced in helping people in these troubled states of mind. But it took more to help people than just telling them "its just a silly game." - it took authentic charismatic authority to break these suggestions.

Kurt E Koch's book Christian Counselling and the Occult is full of case studies in this area.

 

[redblue22]

let's say magic is real. what next?

 

[keith99]

I never knew that, and that hopefully is the only way it works. But can demons not still attach themselves to unprotected people opening up to this, even if they are not moving the glass or whatever?

Its really not worth investigating as I have read of christians who did experiencing spiritual difficulties following and losing all interest in the Bible. One man who was in training to become a vicar had to resign because when he approached the altar or the pulpit he had to overcome a dreadful inner resistance.

There was a tragic case I read about not involving a Ouija Board but fortune telling - a 18 year old girl was told by a fortune teller that she would die when she was twenty. Of course the fortune teller didn't have any knowledge of the future. But the suggestion was put in the young woman's psyche and it worked in a backwards way to the manner Jesus commended people of faith. Sadly she never had any intervention by a mature Christian who could have authoratively broke the power of the suggestion. As her 20th Birthday approached she became more and more troubled and worried, and though she didn't die on her birthday, the emotional turmoil put her in an Psychiatric Hospital and she died two years later. The person writting about this Kurt Koch was experienced in helping people in these troubled states of mind. But it took more to help people than just telling them "its just a silly game." - it took authentic charismatic authority to break these suggestions.

So Christians are very vulnerable to suggestion. Not much of a surprise there. Oh not all but a very significant percentage.

 

[dms1972]

So Christians are very vulnerable to suggestion. Not much of a surprise there. Oh not all but a very significant percentage.

Well it was an 18 year old girl going to a fortune teller, no indication in the book that she was a christian, as the writer usually mentioned if it was a christian he was talking about, or if the person became a christian - I think she wasn't.

 

[dms1972]

Let's say magic is real. what next?

Well if you are talking about actual involvement in the occult that can at worst end in death, or if not play havoc with ones sanity, the answer to me seems to be to stay well away from any involvement with it, whether 'white' magic, or 'black' magic. In Ephesus christians who before their conversion had practiced sorcery burnt their scrolls.

Acts 19. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+19

 

[Blue Wren]

While you're at it, please remind them they still owe me my bonus from last year and my secret decoder ring.



No need for a magic spell. Just wait for one of the five days of the year when it's raining or has dropped below 55 and all of LA goes into hibernation mode for self-preservation, and then go.

Or adopt a few Harry Potter-enthused grandkids and make standing in line with others who are as exuberant part of the experience. My parents said some of the lines on opening day were three hours long, but it was surprisingly tolerable because of the conversations and spirit of excitement. My sisters are 10 and 8 and never complained once that day about anything. They were completely blissed out.

I definitely plan on visiting this, when we are in California for holiday, at Christmas.

 

[Blue Wren]

So Christians are very vulnerable to suggestion. Not much of a surprise there. Oh not all but a very significant percentage.

I do not think many Christian adults, would be so irrationally affected, from something as silly as seeing a "fortune teller." If that story is even true, which I find hard to believe that it is, the woman likely had a impairment of some sort, as it is not normal behaviour, at all.

 

[dms1972]

Well its a case study in a book by a respected writer called Dr. Kurt E. Koch, Christian counselling and the Occult. He was very experienced in the field of Counselling and Evangelism - he examines cases in his book from multiple viewpoints - including medicine, psychiatry, depth-psychology, and theology.

Question: When 'fortune telling' serves absolutely no good purpose (and its dismissed by others) but may leave some with severe emotional disturbance and without proper help because its dismissed - why is it even allowed - is it just so others can have a bit of meaningless fun.???

Sadly this is not a made up story and this did happen, resulting in a young woman suffering for four years and dying at only 22 years of age.