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What is the greatest evidence against the theory of evolution...?

JCFantasy23

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PsychoSarah

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According to you, then cell dominates the world.
Every life is made of cell.
So, what is the point?

We, made of cells, are still have intelligence way way higher than any other groups of cells.
Debatable, and even if true, not by much. A chimpanzee brain has practically the same structure as our own, just smaller. I don't see how intelligence as a trait is exempt from evolution in the slightest, and you have yet to present any evidence for it.

https://thehumanevolutionblog.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/chimphumanbraincomp.gif comparison of size
but hey, even a shark shares the same basic brain structures and functions with humans http://www.connect.ecuad.ca/~dbergman/art_drawing+Design/biology-sharkAndHumanBrain.jpg

Number of neurons and brain size are all it takes.
 
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juvenissun

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Debatable, and even if true, not by much. A chimpanzee brain has practically the same structure as our own, just smaller. I don't see how intelligence as a trait is exempt from evolution in the slightest, and you have yet to present any evidence for it.

Aha, that is the evidence that intelligence can not be evolved.
 
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Neogaia777

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Yes, but who says Moses wrote anything in the Bible? The Bible claims no authorship for the Pentateuch. Titles such as "First Book of Moses" were out on by later translators. I believe the Pentateuch is a later synthesis of at least four earlier sources. And as there are contradictions to be found here, it is pretty obvious God didn't dictate it word for word. Also, no one has yet answered by question. Which version of the OT did God dictate word for word? The Septuagint? The Masoretic? Also the issue her is not about biblical writers lying about God. The issue is simply how accurate of a human witness they were. Given two contradictory accounts of the conquest (Joshua vs. Judges), it would appear to be the case that there were two different understandings or traditions about the conquest., each of which ahs validity, but neither of which is fully accurate. The redactors weren't lying, just dealing with two traditions Also, there is no reason to suppose biblical writers didn't get confused at times. A major contradiction in Paul is that Acts describes him as making five pilgrimages to Jerusalem, where Paul himself describes only three. I believe Paul simply forgot some. Also, more than one passage was added way later on into Scripture. Are those dictated by God or what? For example, the Johannie Comma appears only in much later Bibles. It was something inserted by later scribes. It is legit or not? The Samaritan Pentateuch contains and eleventh commandment. Well, was there one?
Good Points to consider indeed,

I only know that Jesus words, and the NT, in that aspect, is pretty undeniable..., What do you say about Jesus? If he was a real person and really existed, what is he to you? A delusional man, caught up in a lie?, or what? You'd either have to claim that Jesus was crazy, or a liar, to disprove the Bible, Jesus is the greatest evidence of the Bible, and a testimony to God's existence...
 
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Neogaia777

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Yet, I presume that you think 2 billion Muslims are lying or confused or embellishing? And a billion Hindus?
Yes, I think they were and are, and I think the Biblical authors were not, how could over 40 different authors from different eras and regions write with such symmetry in symbolism, and have the same view about God...

I think when God reveals things to Man, in a vision perhaps, Satan comes along and says, "hey, wait a minute, if you get to reveal things to man in visions, then "I" get to too... Only fair right?" before all of the angels, and I believe many are deceived by Satan... Due to some sort of "deal" he has with God, until the time of the end...

God Bless!
 
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Hoghead1

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Good Points to consider indeed,

I only know that Jesus words, and the NT, in that aspect, is pretty undeniable..., What do you say about Jesus? If he was a real person and really existed, what is he to you? A delusional man, caught up in a lie?, or what? You'd either have to claim that Jesus was crazy, or a liar, to disprove the Bible, Jesus is the greatest evidence of the Bible, and a testimony to God's existence...[/QUO
You are putting words into my mouth and not at all paying careful attention to what I said. I am not trying to disprove the Bible. I am seeking an objective account of what the Bible really is, based on a careful study of the structure of the texts themselves. My conclusion is that the inerrancy theory simply does not hold water. That doesn't mean we should dump the Bible or forget about it. it simply means we have to read and understand it in it proper context. Divinely inspired as it may be, it is still the product of fallible human beings living in a prescientific culture and thereby limited to those terms. The issue at hand here is creation. So let's stick to that. The issue her whether or not the Genesis accounts are accurate geophysical witnesses or not. Questions about Christology belong in another forum. My point about Genesis is that it is not at all an accurate geophysical witness and was not intended to be so by God.
 
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Hoghead1

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Yes, I think they were and are, and I think the Biblical authors were not, how could over 40 different authors from different eras and regions write with such symmetry in symbolism, and have the same view about God...

I think when God reveals things to Man, in a vision perhaps, Satan comes along and says, "hey, wait a minute, if you get to reveal things to man in visions, then "I" get to too... Only fair right?" before all of the angels, and I believe many are deceived by Satan... Due to some sort of "deal" he has with God, until the time of the end...

God Bless!
That isn't completely accurate about the Bible. The Bible is not a book of metaphysics, says little about how God is built. it provides snap shorts which often conflict with one another. It's up to the readers to piece all these together, if they can, into a unified picture of God as he is in his own nature. Also, different authors often had very different views. Hence, there are about 100 major contradictions well documented in the Bible. Of not here is the fact Genesis actually presents two contradictory chronologies, each written in a different style by a different author form a different time period. Jus tin case you are interested in this matter, I am including my synopsis of the situation with Genesis.





When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Then why do vertebrate fish have the same inverted retina?
Because you don't understand biology even though you claim to.

Fish hunt for food primarily in the day and closer to the surface. Octopus and squid on the other hand hunt mostly at night and in deeper waters. One occupies a habitat for food and survival that requires it to receive more sunlight, the other doesn't.

Most times you will never see an octopus or squid near the surface in the daylight hours, unless they are disturbed.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You mean, unless it goes beserk and turns into a cancerous tumor?
Or when it mutates, yes. No one denies mutations occur.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bir...ved=0ahUKEwjE5syqwJ7MAhWBtIMKHX28D-QQ_AUIBigB

And yet it is only when two different infraspecific taxa mate is variation seen in the species. Such as Asian and African mating and producing an Afro-Asian. Or Husky and Mastiff mating and producing the Chinook. Until then the Asian always remains Asian, the African remains African. The Husky always remains Husky and the Mastiff remains Mastiff. Just as E coli always remain E coli and always will because they have no other genes inserted from another infraspecific taxa.

And the Afro-Asian will always remain Afro-Asian unless they too mate with another infraspecific taxa. Just as the Chinook will always remain a Chinook until they mate with another infraspecific taxa. The Asian or African does not evolve into the Afro-Asian, nor does the Husky or Mastiff evolve into the Chinook.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Aha, that is the evidence that intelligence can not be evolved.
-_- we know many of the key mutations that resulted in our brains getting bigger. Specifically, the genes for the development of a jaw muscle (that would also restrict the size and shape of our skulls) and a brain growth regulation gene that works in other modern apes have mutations on them in humans that render them nonfunctional. The result is far less restrained brain growth, and the resulting increased intelligence was so advantageous, it outweighed the loss of jaw strength and increased brain cancer risk by a nautical mile.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Ow, you mean like fish? Ow... oeps....fish have the same blind spot. And they live in the same habitat as an octopus. It seems your "logic" doesn't add up.

See above. Seems you didn't really think about it too hard, or you would know the life cycle of each is different. Or did you just want to leave that out in your zeal to not be wrong, even when you clearly are????? I'll repeat it again, since you clearly refuse to learn about the life cycles of the animals you are discussing.

"Fish hunt for food primarily in the day and closer to the surface. Octopus and squid on the other hand hunt mostly at night and in deeper waters. One occupies a habitat for food and survival that requires it to receive more sunlight, the other doesn't.

Most times you will never see an octopus or squid near the surface in the daylight hours, unless they are disturbed."

http://www.octopusworlds.com/octopus-feeding/

"Most of the time Octopus will feed during the night time. They are able to see well in the dark, murky waters which gives them the advantage over their prey."

They rarely unless very hungry hunt during the day.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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-_- we know many of the key mutations that resulted in our brains getting bigger. Specifically, the genes for the development of a jaw muscle (that would also restrict the size and shape of our skulls) and a brain growth regulation gene that works in other modern apes have mutations on them in humans that render them nonfunctional. The result is far less restrained brain growth, and the resulting increased intelligence was so advantageous, it outweighed the loss of jaw strength and increased brain cancer risk by a nautical mile.

Based upon incorrect beliefs one might come to that conclusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_size#Cranial_capacity

"Even so, it is noteworthy that Neanderthals, which became extinct about 40,000 years ago, had larger brains than modern Homo sapiens.... The increase in brain size stopped with neanderthals. Since then, the average brain size has been shrinking over the past 28,000 years."

So it seems our brains are getting smaller yet we are getting more intelligent. Why, because size is not as important as organization.

"However, larger cranial capacity is not always indicative of a more intelligent organism, since larger capacities are required for controlling a larger body, or in many cases are an adaptive feature for life in a colder environment. For instance, among modern Homo Sapiens, northern populations have a 20% larger visual cortex than those in the southern latitude populations, and this potentially explains the population differences in brain size (and roughly cranial capacity). Neurological functions are determined more by the organization of the brain rather than the volume."
 
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Justatruthseeker

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This nonsense does not explain why fish have the same eye that we do and not the eye of the octopus. You need to support your claims with real evidence, not with nonsense that you found on a creationist site.

I didn't think it necessary, but since you clearly understood nothing of the life cycles of the animals we were discussing, I was indeed wrong to assume you did. See above. I assumed incorrectly you wouldn't be talking about octopus without understanding at least a little bit about them and their habitats and life cycles. My bad for giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you understood octopus habitats, where that benefit of doubt was clearly misplaced.
 
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juvenissun

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-_- we know many of the key mutations that resulted in our brains getting bigger. Specifically, the genes for the development of a jaw muscle (that would also restrict the size and shape of our skulls) and a brain growth regulation gene that works in other modern apes have mutations on them in humans that render them nonfunctional. The result is far less restrained brain growth, and the resulting increased intelligence was so advantageous, it outweighed the loss of jaw strength and increased brain cancer risk by a nautical mile.

Size of brain is only a feature. It does not cause a brain to become smarter. The cause/effect is just reversed.
If the degree of intelligence and the size of brain is proportional, then the human brain would be as large as the empire building.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Size of brain is only a feature. It does not cause a brain to become smarter. The cause/effect is just reversed.
If the degree of intelligence and the size of brain is proportional, then the human brain would be as large as the empire building.
Obviously, the number of neurons matters more. The brain growth restrictor restricted cellular division of neurons. An elephant's brain is bigger than ours, yet has fewer neurons than that of a chimpanzee.
 
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Shemjaza

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No, "Humans are much smarter then chimps", is not a reason.

Do you think human intelligence is genetic or not? (Because if you think it's somehow metaphysical then why bother with science in the first place?)

I didn't think it necessary, but since you clearly understood nothing of the life cycles of the animals we were discussing, I was indeed wrong to assume you did. See above. I assumed incorrectly you wouldn't be talking about octopus without understanding at least a little bit about them and their habitats and life cycles. My bad for giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you understood octopus habitats, where that benefit of doubt was clearly misplaced.
All fish, all depths, all salinity levels? All with eyes have the same structure.

Which is the same as all other vertebrates on land and in the sea? Active at night and during the day; wet and dry?
 
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