Believe the Bible - bend the Bible - deny the Bible... pick one

[Colter]

So then you think that observable science supports the idea that "a single celled animal (Amoeba) - will sure-enough turn into a horse over time, given a sufficiently talented amoeba - and a sufficiently talented and long period of time filled with improbable just-so stories""?? Is that your faith-based claim?



Then is it also your "faith alone" claim that Genesis 1 says that or that Exodus 20:11 "legal code" says that??

Or do you simply make that up and declare that the Bible writers did not know what you know - but were trying to say whatever you claim as best they could?

* The Amoeba of today represent the lines that did not mutate into higher, more complex forms.

* The authors of Genesis didn't know any better. They were writing a pseudo-biographical account for the common Israelite audience.

 

[Colter]

How do we know who you are, really.

You could be anyone. I've never read one of your posts before and I have been here on CF for a long time and participated in a lot of threads, so where have you been on here?

I'm not trying to insult you. I really want to know

Hi ToBeLoved,
Look up my posts, I come and go. I participate in other forums as well. Some days I'm debating Atheist other days Flood proponents today it's the discussion of evolution.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi ToBeLoved,
Look up my posts, I come and go. I participate in other forums as well. Some days I'm debating Atheist other days Flood proponents today it's the discussion of evolution.

One more clarification. What did you choose in the poll?

ONLY answer if you chose option 1. If I don't hear from you then I know what your faith is.

 

[Colter]

One more clarification. What did you choose in the poll?

ONLY answer if you chose option 1. If I don't hear from you then I know what your faith is.

I didn't answer the poll at all because it's slanted, there's no option that fits a great many in any Christian community.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I didn't answer the poll at all because it's slanted, there's no option that fits a great many in any Christian community.

You do not think 'bend' the Bible or the other options include the rest of Christianity?

Please explain then what the option would be that fits a great many in the Christian community?

 

[Extraneous]

We all suffer through that same conflict-of-doctrine noise on every thread. Welcome to the club.

In fact in the dark ages you have "Catholic popes" each raising their own papal armies and fighting other Catholic popes - who also had raised up papal armies. (No protestants in that scenario).

And the Protestants start out not as "Protestants" but as "protesting Catholic scholars and priests" protesting the errors they find in their own Magisterium.

Even the Christian church in Acts 2 - is not out to "Start a new religion" but rather is reforming and witnessing to its current Magisterium - the Jewish church.

What is unchanged in all that - is the Bible - it is the baseline document to be held as the highest authority - Paul says that Apostles and Angels are to be "accursed" if they go against it - in Gal 1:6-9.

The reason for "Sola Scriptura" threads and for threads like this one - is to point to the need to "not bend the Bible to fit the bias of church dogma - or popular sentiment in a secular society" -- to quote myself.

The challenge then is to read the Bible and be able to state/affirm/defend what it says rather than simply repeat whatever one has been told by his/her magisterium.

IF your church magisterium agrees with what you find in the Bible - fine with me. If it differs then also fine - let us know.

Here is a great example post --
2 minutes ago #118

Someone appears to be making something up but they do not claim (apparently) that the Bible actually says whatever they happen to make up.

Galatians 5-6. No Catholicism or any other ism. Just ovoid the flesh works and sow to the spirit. Logical, simple, no added thing to cause division. All other scripture can only help understand flesh verses spirit more, but if it adds some religious necessity other than abstaining from flesh works and sowing to the spirit, then i want nothing to do with it. This includes sacraments, and even church attendance which people have turned into legalistic standards of worship. Its true that church attendance is a good thing, if you can find a Church that doesn't lead you in less important matters while avoiding more important matters, but church attendance isn't needed if you dont have a church, and in these last days who can say if you even have a good Church, unless you study scripture for yourself and understand sound doctrine. I don't think those things were meant to be legalistic, and i don't think they are as important as avoiding flesh works and instead sowing to the spirit. In the apostles day, when Church was actually run by real apostles, i would surely agree that Church in needed, but there are no real apostles anymore, and we are in the last days. I do not trust teachers anymore. Im so tired of religion, that im content to just worship God at home, through prayer, thanksgiving and meditation of scripture.

 

[sculleywr]

You do not think 'bend' the Bible or the other options include the rest of Christianity?

Please explain then what the option would be that fits a great many in the Christian community?

It's a twisted and slanted poll because it assumes that anything aside from the fundamentalist view of BobRyan is twisting the Scriptures. There isn't a person on this forum that honestly believes he is twisting the Scriptures.

 

[Extraneous]

It's a twisted and slanted poll because it assumes that anything aside from the fundamentalist view of BobRyan is twisting the Scriptures. There isn't a person on this forum that honestly believes he is twisting the Scriptures.

Hes only doing what he sees is right, according to his understanding. Hes not doing anything that RC or Eo doesn't do themselves. You all twist scripture as well, with your Sainthood theology which declares some men saints as if it were a special title that didn't apply to all Christians but only the select. Also, your theology of praying to saints as well, and your establishing holy days and fasting days, and your whole "priestly order" thing that ended in OC. All men are priests in the NC because we have Gods spirit. Get real man. Your church has done quite a bit of twisting

 

[sculleywr]

Hes only doing what he sees is right, according to his understanding. Hes not doing anything that RC or Eo doesn't do themselves. You all twist scripture as well, with your Sainthood theology which declares some men saints as if it were a special title that didn't apply to all Christians but only the select. Also, your theology of praying to saints as well, and your establishing holy days and fasting days, and your whole "priestly order" thing that ended in OC. All men are priests in the NC because we have Gods spirit. Get real man. Your church has done quite a bit of twisting

Except that that is not twisting Scriptures. And we, at least the Orthodox, do not declare all people not to be priests. In fact, at Baptism, as well as Chrismation, for those who do not come through Baptism, every man is granted a priestly robe. The problem is that, in the English language, the word Presbyter, which comes from the Greek Presbyteros, was shortened by non-catholics to "priest", partially as a slant. And because of the strength of language over culture, it being fully a third of what defines a culture, the word stuck, despite its inaccuracy. The Word presbyter is, more properly translated, is elder, not priest. But because of the fact that westerners don't like changing their words just because they are inaccurate, such as what happens with sodomy in some circles, the use of the word is now priest.

The order of eldership never ended. The early church was just as structured as the Jewish faith, because it was what the Apostles knew and were familiar with. We know this as fact because of the writings both in Scripture showing the details of the positions of deacon and bishop, as well as elder, and the writings of contemporary Christians (that is, people who are Christians who lived alongside the Apostles), such as Ignatius and Clement.

It isn't twisting of Scripture to understand it the way those who it was directly delivered to understood it.

 

[BobRyan]

Galatians 5-6. No Catholicism or any other ism. Just ovoid the flesh works and sow to the spirit. Logical, simple, no added thing to cause division.

The question that some have asked in the past - is put in a more general fashion like this "What should it matter to us if there is error taught within the Christian church? Why bother?"

Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Titus 1
7 For an elder must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

1 Timothy 1
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

Acts 20
17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you,.. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Cor 11
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness

But the fact that some are in error does not mean that all are.

Just ovoid the flesh works and sow to the spirit. Logical, simple, no added thing to cause division.
All other scripture can only help understand flesh verses spirit more, but if it adds some religious necessity other than abstaining from flesh works and sowing to the spirit, then i want nothing to do with it.

My Bible has 66 books the catholic Bible has 66 + 11 books - but no matter because that means they also have that same set of 66 books.

So I say - "give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible".. Not just the "idea of the Bible" but more importantly - the actual words IN the Bible.

in these last days who can say if you even have a good Church, unless you study scripture for yourself and understand sound doctrine.

And there is the "rub" - few are stopping to study the Bible -- "see what is in it" - and then to know if in fact their position is opposed to it - or in favor of it.


While it is true that there is error -- still the Bible directs us to fellowship together -- and I say it is best to find the place of fellowship that most closely conforms to Bible doctrine rather than being at war against that doctrine.

Heb 10
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

===========================================
In the case of this thread we deal with an issue that feeds atheism and destroys Christianity.

 

[BobRyan]

It's a twisted and slanted poll because it assumes that anything aside from the fundamentalist view of BobRyan is twisting the Scriptures. There isn't a person on this forum that honestly believes he is twisting the Scriptures.

In the poll you have three options - none of them says "And this means doing what I say" -- as we all know.

In the first two posts - we have a couple of very good examples - with eye-witness video testimony ... pretty hard for the objective unbiased reader to ignore.

 

[BobRyan]

I didn't answer the poll at all because it's slanted, there's no option that fits a great many in any Christian community.

So I gave you the option of "pleading the 5th"

 

[BobRyan]

No, thats a conclusion that you invented. Life comes from Life.

So then you think that observable science supports the idea that "a single celled animal (Amoeba) - will sure-enough turn into a horse over time, given a sufficiently talented amoeba - and a sufficiently talented and long period of time filled with improbable just-so stories""?? Is that your faith-based claim?

I have said celestial beings planted the primitive life forms in shallow briny seas .

Then is it also your "faith alone" claim that Genesis 1 says that or that Exodus 20:11 "legal code" says that??

Or do you simply make that up and declare that the Bible writers did not know what you know - but were trying to say whatever you claim as best they could?

* The Amoeba of today represent the lines that did not mutate into higher, more complex forms.

I already covered that in the " single celled animal " and also in the "given a sufficiently talented amoeba"

* The authors of Genesis didn't know any better.

Didn't know any better than to ?? contradict one of the stories you told?
Didn't know any better "than what"? than "do do what"??

They were writing a pseudo-biographical account for the common Israelite audience.

What was the intended meaning of the author and the intention of that author for his contemporary reader?

I.E. "What does the text say"??

Is it your claim that the text actually does contradict your stories?? (I believe that is your claim -- but I give you the floor so you can remove-all-doubt )

 

[Colter]

You do not think 'bend' the Bible or the other options include the rest of Christianity?

Please explain then what the option would be that fits a great many in the Christian community?

They realize the Bible was written and rewritten by the imperfect men of religion with various motives over different ages. They have faith in God and take the Bible books for what they are.

 

[Colter]

So then you think that observable science supports the idea that "a single celled animal (Amoeba) - will sure-enough turn into a horse over time, given a sufficiently talented amoeba - and a sufficiently talented and long period of time filled with improbable just-so stories""?? Is that your faith-based claim?



Then is it also your "faith alone" claim that Genesis 1 says that or that Exodus 20:11 "legal code" says that??

Or do you simply make that up and declare that the Bible writers did not know what you know - but were trying to say whatever you claim as best they could?




I already covered that in the " single celled animal " and also in the "given a sufficiently talented amoeba"



Didn't know any better than to ?? contradict one of the stories you told?
Didn't know any better "than what"? than "do do what"??



What was the intended meaning of the author and the intention of that author for his contemporary reader?

I.E. "What does the text say"??

Is it your claim that the text actually does contradict your stories?? (I believe that is your claim -- but I give you the floor so you can remove-all-doubt )

* In Mesopotamia there were many oral traditions that contained fragments of the Past. The story of Adam and Eve as it had survived was important, so the Hebrews tried to trace their blood lines back to them in constructing their narrative as "Gods chosen people."

* The authors of Genesis didn't know how old the earth was or how old man was, they assumed Adam was the first. They were religious men not historians or scientist.

* There are parts and pieces of the truth in the stories. Many myths do have some basis in truth.

 

[Extraneous]

Except that that is not twisting Scriptures. And we, at least the Orthodox, do not declare all people not to be priests. In fact, at Baptism, as well as Chrismation, for those who do not come through Baptism, every man is granted a priestly robe. The problem is that, in the English language, the word Presbyter, which comes from the Greek Presbyteros, was shortened by non-catholics to "priest", partially as a slant. And because of the strength of language over culture, it being fully a third of what defines a culture, the word stuck, despite its inaccuracy. The Word presbyter is, more properly translated, is elder, not priest. But because of the fact that westerners don't like changing their words just because they are inaccurate, such as what happens with sodomy in some circles, the use of the word is now priest.

The order of eldership never ended. The early church was just as structured as the Jewish faith, because it was what the Apostles knew and were familiar with. We know this as fact because of the writings both in Scripture showing the details of the positions of deacon and bishop, as well as elder, and the writings of contemporary Christians (that is, people who are Christians who lived alongside the Apostles), such as Ignatius and Clement.

It isn't twisting of Scripture to understand it the way those who it was directly delivered to understood it.

Not only do you twist scripture, but then justify it with spin. This is a spin job if i ever heard one. Its so arrogant that it cant even admit its mistakes, but instead just puts spin on it. Forbid that you ever should be found in error. You and RC are stuck in the dark ages, with all your sainthood, prayers to saints, priestly robes, fasting days and holy days, but then arrogantly assert your authority, as if you had any. As i said, get real man.

 

[Extraneous]

The question that some have asked in the past - is put in a more general fashion like this "What should it matter to us if there is error taught within the Christian church? Why bother?"

Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Titus 1
7 For an elder must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

1 Timothy 1
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.

Acts 20
17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you,.. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

Jude 1
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Cor 11
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness

But the fact that some are in error does not mean that all are.



My Bible has 66 books the catholic Bible has 66 + 11 books - but no matter because that means they also have that same set of 66 books.

So I say - "give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible".. Not just the "idea of the Bible" but more importantly - the actual words IN the Bible.



And there is the "rub" - few are stopping to study the Bible -- "see what is in it" - and then to know if in fact their position is opposed to it - or in favor of it.


While it is true that there is error -- still the Bible directs us to fellowship together -- and I say it is best to find the place of fellowship that most closely conforms to Bible doctrine rather than being at war against that doctrine.

Heb 10
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

===========================================
In the case of this thread we deal with an issue that feeds atheism and destroys Christianity.

Exhorting one another to be divided over politics, economics, patriotism, war and science. Thats what the Church exhorts nowadays. There is no more teaching that our citizenship is in heaven. They lead in these things by example are are too blind to see what is sound doctrine. No thanks, i'll follow Pauls example brother. Scripture will be my exhortation.

 

[Extraneous]

2000 years ago, when mostly only the rich could read, exhortation was needed, and preaching the word. However, we all have bibles now and can read. We don't need to hear the word preached because we can read it daily. We don't need exhortation either because the scriptures do a better job of that than any Church does today. Matter of fact, its best to let the scriptures be the teacher and exhorter, because i know we are in the days where sound doctrine is not being taught. What good does it do to listen to a preacher if that preacher doesn't even follow Paul's example? Paul was not political, but he gave up all things for Christ. He wanted no earthly nation or its contention and division. How do we have one mind, undivided, speaking the same thing, when we are Americans ans Europeans, democrats and republicans, socialists and capitalists? WE cant. Paul wanted only Christ and Heaven. What good does it do to follow a preacher, when he will only lead us astray with his own bad example? I will follow Paul, the Churches can follow Clinton and Trump.

 

[sculleywr]

In the poll you have three options - none of them says "And this means doing what I say" -- as we all know.

In the first two posts - we have a couple of very good examples - with eye-witness video testimony ... pretty hard for the objective unbiased reader to ignore.

You have openly said that Catholics and Orthodox twist the Scriptures to their statement. The unbiased observer sees you decide that your opinion is the most valid, despite the fact that you repeat old and refuted statements.

 

[sculleywr]

Not only do you twist scripture, but then justify it with spin. This is a spin job if i ever heard one. Its so arrogant that it cant even admit its mistakes, but instead just puts spin on it. Forbid that you ever should be found in error. You and RC are stuck in the dark ages, with all your sainthood, prayers to saints, priestly robes, fasting days and holy days, but then arrogantly assert your authority, as if you had any. As i said, get real man.

I'll just describe what you just said with what you started it with: It's so arrogant that it can't even admit its mistakes.

So take your HATRED elsewhere. Nobody is buying your unproven and hate-based arguments. Come back when you have empirical descriptions.