Adam & Eve

[OldWiseGuy]

Can't live with them can't live without them.

I'm divorced. Trust me, you can live without them.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

He was not so excited when he said: "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate." As if it were all her fault. If not her then at least the serpent was to blame for the trouble Adam was in.

God blamed Adam,
Adam blamed Eve,
Eve blamed the snake,

and he didn't have leg to stand on.

 

[JackRT]

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that Satan IS NOT the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up these concepts (and more!) during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Exilic Jews found the concept of a near-Supreme Being of Evil interesting. They borrowed it because it got God off the hook for the suffering and evil in the world, providing him with a scapegoat. God was now all-good! Satan was made into the Devil as a result of this alien dualism, since his function as a prosecutor was so unwelcome to the Jews. And retroactively what was only actually a talking snake in the Garden of Eden was identified as the Devil as well. To most modern Christians, the concept of the Devil is a conflation of the snake of Genesis, the Lucifer of Isaiah and the Satan of Job. This conflation is further supplemented by lurid medieval fiction like Dante's "Inferno".

 

[OldWiseGuy]

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that Satan IS NOT the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up these concepts (and more!) during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Exilic Jews found the concept of a near-Supreme Being of Evil interesting. They borrowed it because it got God off the hook for the suffering and evil in the world, providing him with a scapegoat. God was now all-good! Satan was made into the Devil as a result of this alien dualism, since his function as a prosecutor was so unwelcome to the Jews. And retroactively what was only actually a talking snake in the Garden of Eden was identified as the Devil as well. To most modern Christians, the concept of the Devil is a conflation of the snake of Genesis, the Lucifer of Isaiah and the Satan of Job. This conflation is further supplemented by lurid medieval fiction like Dante's "Inferno".

How do you explain the "day of atonement" ritual?

 

[joshua 1 9]

She owes me enough money as it is.

I think I owe my wife more money than she owes me. Her credit card works more often then mine does. So she can not use my card as much as she would like.

 

[Goatee]

Adam, turns, looks at Eve and says "I quite fancy that monkey over there!" lol

 

[joshua 1 9]

Why did the serpent do it? And why didn't God ask the serpent why it had tempted Eve?

This has to do with free will. God does not want slaves or robots, He wants us to freely love Him.

 

[St_Worm2]

...it's clear that Satan IS NOT the Devil!

Am I misreading verses like Revelation 12:9 somehow .. because the Bible seems to indicate there that "Satan", the "Devil", and "the Serpent of old", are all the same guy!

"The great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the Devil (διάβολος / diabolos) and Satan (Σατανᾶς / Satanas), who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."
~Revelation 12:9
​

Thanks!

--David

 

[civilwarbuff]

Guess it wasn't that clear, huh?

 

[St_Worm2]

The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to come and go from God's presence and on a mission.......

Hi Jack, I also meant to point out that I believe Satan's "banishment" from Heaven (which occurred in Revelation 12).....

"The great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him." ~Revelation 12:9​

....occurs after the Seventh Trumpet sounds in Revelation 11 (which marks the end of this Age )

"Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.'" ~Revelation 11:15​

So the fact that 1) Satan was allowed/commanded to come and go from God's presence in Job, or the fact that 2) he had a chit-chat with Eve in the Garden of Eden, is certainly possible (in both cases) because his "banishment" happens at a considerably later date.

Yours and His,
David

 

[PsychoSarah]

God blamed Adam,
Adam blamed Eve,
Eve blamed the snake,

and he didn't have leg to stand on.

No legs after what god did to it. The serpent's punishment makes no sense if it was a snake prior to the fall.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Am I misreading verses like Revelation 12:9 somehow .. because the Bible seems to indicate there that "Satan", the "Devil", and "the Serpent of old", are all the same guy!

"The great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the Devil (διάβολος / diabolos) and Satan (Σατανᾶς / Satanas), who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him."
~Revelation 12:9
​

Thanks!

--David

The OT treats the serpent in the Garden of Eden and Satan (the adversary) as separate beings, and makes practically no devil mentions in most translations. The NT, on the other hand, does imply that they are all the same being, and while I could buy the devil and Satan being one and the same, the serpent most certainly is not either. It's punishment means it can't be a shapeshifter of many forms that the devil is often implied to be, it isn't sent to hell, and until the NT, nothing suggests that it is relevant later in the story.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No legs after what god did to it. The serpent's punishment makes no sense if it was a snake prior to the fall.

True, but for the purpose of the joke lets' just say.......

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The OT treats the serpent in the Garden of Eden and Satan (the adversary) as separate beings, and makes practically no devil mentions in most translations. The NT, on the other hand, does imply that they are all the same being, and while I could buy the devil and Satan being one and the same, the serpent most certainly is not either. It's punishment means it can't be a shapeshifter of many forms that the devil is often implied to be, it isn't sent to hell, and until the NT, nothing suggests that it is relevant later in the story.

Revelation 12:9 is just that, a revelation about this being and who it was.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Revelation 12:9 is just that, a revelation about this being and who it was.

Yes, but you have to view the bible as a whole. And the bible as a whole generally DOES NOT depict the serpent in the garden of Eden as the devil, and it wouldn't make a lot of sense if it was. What of its different punishment? How do you explain that?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, but you have to view the bible as a whole. And the bible as a whole generally DOES NOT depict the serpent in the garden of Eden as the devil, and it wouldn't make a lot of sense if it was. What of its different punishment? How do you explain that?

You might say that God brought this being "down to earth", as were Adam and Eve.

Perhaps the 'serpent' was a metaphor. The root word suggests that this being was an "enchanter" who beguiled Eve with suggestions that appealed to her, substituting experimentation (the scientific method) in place of revelation.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Yes, but you have to view the bible as a whole. And the bible as a whole generally DOES NOT depict the serpent in the garden of Eden as the devil, and it wouldn't make a lot of sense if it was.

John in Revelation says the great dragon, the old serpent, the devil and satan are all the same. Clearly he was thrown out of Heaven. It is believed that one third of the angels were thrown out of heaven and cast down to the earth with the "old serpent". Now the battle is taking place here on the Earth.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

 

[PsychoSarah]

John in Revelation says the great dragon, the old serpent, the devil and satan are all the same. Clearly he was thrown out of Heaven. It is believed that one third of the angels were thrown out of heaven and cast down to the earth with the "old serpent". Now the battle is taking place here on the Earth.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

All of that is in just 1 book of the New Testament. Find a quote from the Old Testament that says the serpent is satan or the devil. Good luck finding one.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You might say that God brought this being "down to earth", as were Adam and Eve.

Perhaps the 'serpent' was a metaphor. The root word suggests that this being was an "enchanter" who beguiled Eve with suggestions that appealed to her, substituting experimentation (the scientific method) in place of revelation.

That's really stretching it, and you know it. And the devil was sentenced to hell, not earth.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's really stretching it, and you know it. And the devil was sentenced to hell, not earth.

The narrative supports my view, and, the devil hasn't been cast into 'hell' just yet.