LDS Why are Christian creeds considered abominations?

[withwonderingawe]

THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646)

“There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, …..”

So let’s take this apart

*There is but one only living and true God…without body, parts,

I don’t think they understood what the term ‘living God’ meant to Moses.

Adam became “a living soul” and in that case it meant his body and spirit came together and he became a living being. God is a soul also, in Isa 42 there is a situation as we find at the baptism of Jesus where the Father bears testimony to the Son’s authority.

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighted…”

God has a soul, he has a body, Moses’ worshipped a God who could hear, see, smell and eat! That’s why he called him a living God.

*“Invisible…”

God is not “invisible” the word translated does not mean unsee-able. It means unseen.

“1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God/Elohim.
2 My soul thirsteth for God/Elohim, for the living God/El: when shall I come and appear before God/Elohim?

Throughout the Old Testament everyone assumes the God/El is see-able

*Immutable or unchanging

This stems from the idea that the immoveable mover would not move because that would imply imperfection.
*immense?

Does a huge God make a better God?

* incomprehensible

John 1 “And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”

 

[drstevej]

immutable and immovable are not equivalents.

google eisegesis

 

[Super14LDS]

I've read various accounts of the First Vision where Joseph Smith claims that God told him that "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight".

So I'm curious about this: what statements in our creeds are abominable? Would any LDS member like to choose a creed and explain?

OK sure, here is a logical treatment of the trinity abomination.

Latter-day Saints fully subscribe to the concept of the oneness of God. The Book of Mormon also affirms that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are ONE GOD.

But the Bible and other scriptures also fully affirm that the Son is distinct from the Father, yet is God, and that the Holy Ghost is also distinct, and yet can be called God - apparently making three Gods. The issue, then is in what sense are three distinct persons one God? That's where we differ.

Most modern Christians rely on a post-Biblical formulation that asserts the three persons are nevertheless one substance and one Being - phraseology not found in the Bible but claimed to be consistent with the Bible.

We believe that the oneness of God lies in their perfect unity of mind, purpose, and will, wherein each can represent the others. To worship the Son is to worship the Father, to believe in the Son is to believe in the Father. Looking to Jesus Christ does not take us to some other God, but to the Father.

Which definition of oneness did Christ teach? Clearly the latter - for he prays (John 17:11,21-24) that Christians might be one even as the Son and the Father are one. That's clearly not a oneness of substance nor an assimilation into one Being, but a oneness of unity. - http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/oneness.shtml#one

Edit to fix link.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I think I could agree with the LDS position on creeds and disagree with it depending on the context. For me, it depends on why a person makes, recites, or believes in the creed. It reminds me of the "sinners prayer" which usually goes something like, "Jesus, I want forgiveness for being a sinner and I ask you into my heart". The prayer doesn't appear in Jesus' teachings but ordinarily I'd not see any problem with it. I think it can be said with sincerity and have genuine meaning to God, but almost always it's taught as a "formula for salvation", as though once saying the prayer everything is fixed up eternally.

I've encountered a lot of people who get excited for a while after saying the prayer, but after a few months or years they pretty much go back to life as usual, content that they've fulfilled at least some minimal obligation. I even witnessed firsthand a couple of guys trying to convince another guy to "get saved" by saying the prayer. The guy quite plainly told them he could say it for them (they were quite pushy about it) but it wouldn't mean anything to him. They insisted it didn't even matter if he believed it or not, he just needed to say it and God would honor the prayer.

I think it is this kind of formulaic ritual behind the creeds which can make them so spiritually dangerous and I believe this is why Jesus said, "This people draw near to me with their lips, but their heart is far from me". Creeds could be helpful in quickly describing a core set of beliefs, but they often take on a spiritual importance which goes beyond the convenience of brevity.

Something as worthy as, "we believe there is one God, the virgin birth, Jesus' death on the cross, his resurrection, saving grace etc" can actually work against real faith if, through time and tradition, people rely more and more on these while issues like obedience, greed, self examination, helping the poor etc pale in comparison.

 

[ToBeLoved]

THE WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH (1646)
“There is but one only living and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, …..”

So let’s take this apart
*There is but one only living and true God…without body, parts,

I don’t think they understood what the term ‘living God’ meant to Moses.

I think Moses understood that his God was living when the finger of God wrote the 10 Commandments in stone.

So let's just start there in the first sentence.

What does 'living' mean to you?

 

[ToBeLoved]

OK sure, here is a logical treatment of the trinity abomination.

Latter-day Saints fully subscribe to the concept of the oneness of God. The Book of Mormon also affirms that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are ONE GOD.

But the Bible and other scriptures also fully affirm that the Son is distinct from the Father, yet is God, and that the Holy Ghost is also distinct, and yet can be called God - apparently making three Gods. The issue, then is in what sense are three distinct persons one God? That's where we differ.

Most modern Christians rely on a post-Biblical formulation that asserts the three persons are nevertheless one substance and one Being - phraseology not found in the Bible but claimed to be consistent with the Bible.

We believe that the oneness of God lies in their perfect unity of mind, purpose, and will, wherein each can represent the others. To worship the Son is to worship the Father, to believe in the Son is to believe in the Father. Looking to Jesus Christ does not take us to some other God, but to the Father.

Which definition of oneness did Christ teach? Clearly the latter - for he prays (John 17:11,21-24) that Christians might be one even as the Son and the Father are one. That's clearly not a oneness of substance nor an assimilation into one Being, but a oneness of unity. - http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/oneness.shtml#one

Edit to fix link.

So you must believe then, given your definition that in Jesus Christ was not only the Son of God as the Bible talks about?

However, I have seen contridictions in your own LDS writings on this. So one cannot say that Jesus Christ was the Son of God as your scriptures say.

So what there is is CONTRADICTIONS IN MORMON TEXT.

So, please explain in detail who Jesus was as far as being 'fully God'.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think I could agree with the LDS position on creeds and disagree with it depending on the context. For me, it depends on why a person makes, recites, or believes in the creed. It reminds me of the "sinners prayer" which usually goes something like, "Jesus, I want forgiveness for being a sinner and I ask you into my heart". The prayer doesn't appear in Jesus' teachings but ordinarily I'd not see any problem with it. I think it can be said with sincerity and have genuine meaning to God, but almost always it's taught as a "formula for salvation", as though once saying the prayer everything is fixed up eternally.

That is not the sinners prayer.

I don't want to hear one sentence.

If you are going to dissect it, than what is it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

OK sure, here is a logical treatment of the trinity abomination.

Most modern Christians rely on a post-Biblical formulation that asserts the three persons are nevertheless one substance and one Being - phraseology not found in the Bible but claimed to be consistent with the Bible.

Christians have never stated that the word 'Trinity' is a word in the Bible.

The word is our own word, but all that we use and describe in this word is what is in the Bible.

So you are arguing the word 'Trinity' because of .?

 

[ToBeLoved]

in Isa 42 there is a situation as we find at the baptism of Jesus where the Father bears testimony to the Son’s authority.

“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighted…”

So let's look at this verse. The word in Hebrew for 'soul' here is nap̄·šî to which there is 172 Occurrences Now we can easily see from it's useage that it was not only a word that God used in describing Himself, but a word people used that also was used to mean 'life'..

Genesis 12:13
HEB: בַעֲבוּרֵ֔ךְ וְחָיְתָ֥ה נַפְשִׁ֖י בִּגְלָלֵֽךְ׃
KJV: it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live
INT: because may live and my soul account

Genesis 19:19
HEB: לְהַחֲי֖וֹת אֶת־ נַפְשִׁ֑י וְאָנֹכִ֗י לֹ֤א
NAS: me by saving my life; but I cannot
KJV: in saving my life; and I cannot
INT: me saving my life I and I

Genesis 19:20
HEB: הִ֖וא וּתְחִ֥י נַפְשִֽׁי׃
NAS: (is it not small?) that my life may be saved.
KJV: thither, ([is] it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
INT: he may be saved He

Genesis 27:4
HEB: בַּעֲב֛וּר תְּבָרֶכְךָ֥ נַפְשִׁ֖י בְּטֶ֥רֶם אָמֽוּת׃
NAS: so that my soul may bless
KJV: [it] to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless
INT: so may bless my soul before die

Genesis 27:25
HEB: לְמַ֥עַן תְּבָֽרֶכְךָ֖ נַפְשִׁ֑י וַיַּגֶּשׁ־ לוֹ֙
KJV: venison, that my soul may bless
INT: because of may bless my soul brought ate

Genesis 32:30
HEB: פָּנִ֔ים וַתִּנָּצֵ֖ל נַפְשִֽׁי׃
NAS: to face, yet my life has been preserved.
KJV: to face, and my life is preserved.
INT: face has been preserved my life

Genesis 49:6
HEB: אַל־ תָּבֹ֣א נַפְשִׁ֔י בִּקְהָלָ֖ם אַל־
NAS: Let my soul not enter
KJV: O my soul, come
INT: nay enter my soul their assembly nay

Exodus 15:9
HEB: שָׁלָ֑ל תִּמְלָאֵ֣מוֹ נַפְשִׁ֔י אָרִ֣יק חַרְבִּ֔י
NAS: the spoil; My desire shall be gratified
KJV: the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied
INT: the spoil shall be gratified my desire will draw my sword

Leviticus 26:11
HEB: וְלֹֽא־ תִגְעַ֥ל נַפְשִׁ֖י אֶתְכֶֽם׃
NAS: among you, and My soul will not reject
KJV: among you: and my soul shall not abhor
INT: will not reject and my soul

Leviticus 26:30
HEB: גִּלּוּלֵיכֶ֑ם וְגָעֲלָ֥ה נַפְשִׁ֖י אֶתְכֶֽם׃
NAS: of your idols, for My soul shall abhor
KJV: of your idols, and my soul shall abhor
INT: of your idols shall abhor my soul

Numbers 23:10
HEB: יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל תָּמֹ֤ת נַפְשִׁי֙ מ֣וֹת יְשָׁרִ֔ים
INT: Israel crying any the death of the upright

Judges 5:21
HEB: קִישׁ֑וֹן תִּדְרְכִ֥י נַפְשִׁ֖י עֹֽז׃
NAS: Kishon. O my soul, march
KJV: Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down
INT: Kishon march my soul strength

Judges 12:3
HEB: מוֹשִׁ֗יעַ וָאָשִׂ֨ימָה נַפְשִׁ֤י בְכַפִּי֙ וָֽאֶעְבְּרָה֙
NAS: [me], I took my life in my hands
KJV: [me] not, I put my life in my hands,
INT: deliver took my life my hands and crossed

Judges 16:30
HEB: שִׁמְשׁ֗וֹן תָּמ֣וֹת נַפְשִׁי֮ עִם־ פְּלִשְׁתִּים֒
INT: and Samson die any with the Philistines

1 Samuel 1:15
HEB: וָאֶשְׁפֹּ֥ךְ אֶת־ נַפְשִׁ֖י לִפְנֵ֥י יְהוָֽה׃
NAS: but I have poured out my soul before
KJV: but have poured out my soul before
INT: have drunk have poured my soul before the LORD

1 Samuel 20:1
HEB: מְבַקֵּ֖שׁ אֶת־ נַפְשִֽׁי׃
NAS: that he is seeking my life?
KJV: thy father, that he seeketh my life?
INT: for is seeking He

1 Samuel 22:23
HEB: יְבַקֵּ֥שׁ אֶת־ נַפְשִׁ֖י יְבַקֵּ֣שׁ אֶת־
NAS: seeks my life seeks
KJV: not: for he that seeketh my life seeketh
INT: who seeks my life seeks your life

1 Samuel 24:11
HEB: צֹדֶ֥ה אֶת־ נַפְשִׁ֖י לְקַחְתָּֽהּ׃
NAS: against you, though you are lying in wait for my life to take
KJV: against thee; yet thou huntest my soul to take
INT: you are lying my life to take

1 Samuel 26:21
HEB: אֲשֶׁ֨ר יָקְרָ֥ה נַפְשִׁ֛י בְּעֵינֶ֖יךָ הַיּ֣וֹם
NAS: because my life was precious
KJV: for I will no more do thee harm, because my soul was precious
INT: after precious my life your sight day



.
So, please do not tell us what our scriptures mean. You do not know what our scriptures mean.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

That is not the sinners prayer.

I don't want to hear one sentence.

If you are going to dissect it, than what is it?

Hi TBL. Here's the Billy Graham version (arguably one of the most influential in promoting the prayer),

Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name.

Have you ever had any experience with anyone using this prayer as I suggested in my previous post (i.e. they see it as a salvation formula)?

 

[ToBeLoved]

God is not “invisible” the word translated does not mean unsee-able. It means unseen.

“1 As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God/Elohim.
2 My soul thirsteth for God/Elohim, for the living God/El: when shall I come and appear before God/Elohim?

So now let's look at your verses:

Psalms 42:1
1 For the choir director. A Maskil of the sons of Korah. As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for You, O God. 2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God?

This is not describing God as being seen or having a body, this is a comparison of how a deer needs water and that his heart needs God.

So misunderstood.

These two verses are both of your proof texts, which do not describe God having a body.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi TBL. Here's the Billy Graham version (arguably one of the most influential in promoting the prayer),

Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name.

Have you ever had any experience with anyone using this prayer as I suggested in my previous post (i.e. they see it as a salvation formula)?

I do not believe anyone thinks of it as a 'salvation formula'.

What it does include are the individual concepts that the Bible, Paul and the other apostles of what is in the gospel or Good News of Jesus Christ.

* One must admit to being a sinner and that one cannot atone in any way for their own sins.
* Repentance
* Acknowledge that Jesus is the way (Savior).
* That Jesus is God ( Lord).

So in actuality is what the 'sinners prayer' is is a group of words that are suppose to contain all the components of the gospel so that a person who does not know the Bible can come to God.

That is what has come to be meant as the 'sinners prayer'. It is most often used when there is a large group of people who can have only miniscule knowledge of Christ or that can have a good knowledge. It is meant to be able to be understood by all, yet meet the things that are needed for salvation.

That is my understanding, and yes it is different words, but the basic tenants of the gospel should be there.

It is a way to speak to many, many people when the gospel cannot be shared individually with each person personally.

 

[ToBeLoved]

How would you preach the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ to others that they can be saved, right now but to 50 or 100 people?

or would you walk away telling them you cannot talk to each of them individually and let them walk away without knowing Christ?

That is the question.

It's not an easy situation when mass groups of people with different levels of knowledge of Jesus is are all together.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

It is a way to speak to many, many people when the gospel cannot be shared individually with each person personally.

Huh, I guess we have different experiences of what the prayer means to different people.

Anyway, what did you think about the other parts of my post?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

How would you preach the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ to others that they can be saved, right now but to 50 or 100 people?

or would you walk away telling them you cannot talk to each of them individually and let them walk away without knowing Christ?

That is the question.

It's not an easy situation when mass groups of people with different levels of knowledge of Jesus is are all together.

I think this is meant for me and thank you for clarifying how you see the prayer as being important. As I said in my original post I don't see a problem with the words of the prayer, but I have experienced, in many cases, that not only is reciting the words essential but that the prayer also equates to salvation.

To me, the words of the prayer represent a sincere attitude at the time it is said. It neither guarantees salvation nor that the person saying the prayer will still be sincere years, months, or even days after saying it. Even though the prayer technically contains components of what Jesus and others taught, recitation of the prayer has become akin to "say the special words" and taken on a meaning Jesus didn't teach.

I've never seen any version of the prayer which contains words like, "I will do my best to obey your teachings" or "I have counted the cost and am prepared to lay my life down in service to others". I think that is significant.

 

[withwonderingawe]

So now let's look at your verses:

Psalms 42:1
1 For the choir director. A Maskil of the sons of Korah. As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for You, O God. 2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God?

This is not describing God as being seen or having a body, this is a comparison of how a deer needs water and that his heart needs God.

So misunderstood.

These two verses are both of your proof texts, which do not describe God having a body.

Job 19
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God/El:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I think this is meant for me and thank you for clarifying how you see the prayer as being important. As I said in my original post I don't see a problem with the words of the prayer, but I have experienced, in many cases, that not only is reciting the words essential but that the prayer also equates to salvation.

To me, the words of the prayer represent a sincere attitude at the time it is said. It neither guarantees salvation nor that the person saying the prayer will still be sincere years, months, or even days after saying it. Even though the prayer technically contains components of what Jesus and others taught, recitation of the prayer has become akin to "say the special words" and taken on a meaning Jesus didn't teach.

I've never seen any version of the prayer which contains words like, "I will do my best to obey your teachings" or "I have counted the cost and am prepared to lay my life down in service to others". I think that is significant.

I have heard that said by others. I cannot say what happens in those other churches or how they explain things. What we need to believe is that if they are sincere, the Holy Spirit will be given to them and work in their hearts.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Job 19
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God/El:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

And how does that show God has a body?

I'd really like you to think through these verses before you post them.

 

[withwonderingawe]

And how does that show God has a body?

I'd really like you to think through these verses before you post them.

I was saying God is not invisible, Job was expecting to see God

"Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God"

Was Jesus lying

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I have heard that said by others. I cannot say what happens in those other churches or how they explain things. What we need to believe is that if they are sincere, the Holy Spirit will be given to them and work in their hearts.

hey TBL. I agree that we should be willing to accept another Christian's sincerity (i.e. giving them the benefit of the doubt to some degree) and that the HS can work in the hearts of people in ways that we can't know. I think it's good that we've been able to find agreement on that.

It's a bit strange saying this, bit it's somehow fortunate and unfortunate that you've not experienced what I'm suggesting; fortunate because it's not particularly pleasant to witness people fall for formulaic expressions of faith and unfortunate because it's something that happens often and we all need to be able to recognize when it happens.

For example, the Billy Graham crusades were famous for, at times, thousands of people performing an "alter call" where they go to the front of the stage, say the prayer and wham, they're saved. They're in a huge arena, they've been pumped up on encouragement from the pastor, music, the cheering crowd, and a whole heap of prodding at their various emotional issues. But we don't see anything like that from Jesus. He was famous for telling his would-be followers to count the cost, telling a story about people laughing at embarrassed craftsmen and kings who started projects they could not finish.

To be sure there are sincere instances of the prayer being said, but the special words have, for the most part, become a formula for "reaching thousands" with very little real substance behind the conversion after all the hype and emotionalism after that initial confession in the stadium wears off days, weeks, and months later.

Something similar happens with creeds. Over time they lose their meaning, made all the more difficult to realize because the words sound so true. It reminds me of the Isralites sacrificing animals for their sins. They were supposed to take the animal into their house for a time, feed it, take care of it and then kill it. It was meant to make the people feel genuine remorse, which it probably did at first. But, over time it became a ritual. People got used to it and the shock value wore off. It all became so much ritualistic obligation.

Other than brevity, why should we even need creeds?