Tax church property? Gay marriage court to decide.

[DavidAReed]

Every Christian should be aware that the same state high court that first imposed gay marriage a decade ago heard arguments yesterday on a case that could result in shutting down churches across Massachusetts, by taxing their land and buildings--a move that could be followed by other states, just as in the case of gay marriage:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/lo...igious_tax_exemptions_on_the_line_in_sjc_case

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...-before-sjc/8dHA6uQU5vLx6bQ9yJOqBM/story.html

Come, Lord Jesus!

 

[farout]

Every Christian should be aware that the same state high court that first imposed gay marriage a decade ago heard arguments yesterday on a case that could result in shutting down churches across Massachusetts, by taxing their land and buildings--a move that could be followed by other states, just as in the case of gay marriage:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/lo...igious_tax_exemptions_on_the_line_in_sjc_case

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...-before-sjc/8dHA6uQU5vLx6bQ9yJOqBM/story.html

Come, Lord Jesus!

Look at this in a different way. Under persecution genuine followers of Christ seem to be more dedicated, and churches that are "genuine" seem to grow. Those cult and tax shelter so called churches will end. Also for example the Mormon and Catholic churches have so much property that would bring in a huge amount of money if churches and other 501 3C tax exemptions would end. But so would help for the poor, and any non government agency that helps people.

In the end what would be gained in tax revenue, would be a huge loss in what non profit's do to help our country. Would it be worth what we gain? I do not think so. I believe we would have soup lines, and people sleeping in the streets.

 

[Widlast]

Would all other non-profit organizations be taxed for their facilities?

It would be a very short sighted action. Like the goose that laid the golden eggs, there would initially be a great increase in tax income, and then afterwards nothing, as most would close their doors.

 

[revanneosl]

If the court finds that the law is written in such a way as to make it necessary for religious institutions to pay property taxes, I predict that the legislature will rewrite the law in a way that will exempt them. There is no broad-based public support for taxing churches.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Why shouldn't churches pay property taxes? They are using county/city resources (water, sewer, etc.) and those taxes help pay for the upkeep and development of that infrastructure/resources. You want to use it? Pay for it. I DO think it would run certain small churches out of business, but hey...stuff happens. It will definitely separate the sheep from the goats though...those "preachers" who are out shilling for money...as soon as they have to pay taxes on the property (Joel Osteen) they may finally just do us all a favor and shut up and stop teaching their false gospel.

 

[revanneosl]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, even though property taxation would probably close at least some of the churches I formerly served. Selling out & having those buildings off of their backs might possibly be the best thing that ever happened to some congregations.

HOWEVER, American religious freedom is has historically been pretty awesomely expansive, and that has been one of our strengths as a nation. One of the ways in which we have maintained the expansiveness of our religious freedom has been the doctrine of avoiding "excessive entanglement" between government and religion. If the government can use the tax code to suppress religious expressions they don't like - well...I don't think that would be a very great idea either. It would definitely, at least during some administrations, be used as a weapon against new religious movements that weren't sufficiently WASPy.

 

[farout]

Why shouldn't churches pay property taxes? They are using county/city resources (water, sewer, etc.) and those taxes help pay for the upkeep and development of that infrastructure/resources. You want to use it? Pay for it. I DO think it would run certain small churches out of business, but hey...stuff happens. It will definitely separate the sheep from the goats though...those "preachers" who are out shilling for money...as soon as they have to pay taxes on the property (Joel Osteen) they may finally just do us all a favor and shut up and stop teaching their false gospel.

Churches do pay for water, sewer and many things. However churches are made up of people who GIVE to their church. Churches give a lot to their cities and towns. Our church has AWANA program. We feed 50+ kids every Wednesday before AWANA starts. We have a food bank and that GIVES back. I suspect many churches GIVE back much more than the property TAX would have been. What would happen if churches paid property taxes? Most likely nothing as members would pick up the slack and keep on GIVING as the do now!

Don't kid yourself, most average pastor gets far less than the average man in his church makes. Yes there are wealthy Gospel peddlers who make huge money. Big churches, especially those who tickle the ears will always survive, as many people jus want to "feel good" not really know that they are sinners in need of a Savior, Jesus Christ.

Be careful what you suggest, it just might happen.

 

[WolfGate]

Why shouldn't churches pay property taxes? They are using county/city resources (water, sewer, etc.) and those taxes help pay for the upkeep and development of that infrastructure/resources. You want to use it? Pay for it. I DO think it would run certain small churches out of business, but hey...stuff happens. It will definitely separate the sheep from the goats though...those "preachers" who are out shilling for money...as soon as they have to pay taxes on the property (Joel Osteen) they may finally just do us all a favor and shut up and stop teaching their false gospel.

Using dynamite to take care of an ant.

 

[Widlast]

There are always those who like to swat gnats with a howitzer.

 

[WolfGate]

Here in North Carolina, the list of organizations which receive exemptions or preferential relief from property taxes is pretty extensive. Property belonging to government (federal, state, local) entities, real property used for educational, scientific, or literary charitable purposes, charitable hospitals, qualified retirement facilities, property used for religious or religious educational purposes, property used for certain environmental improvements among them. Certainly the state could choose to remove property tax relief from these and raise revenues, but doing so in any case would harm the life of the citizens of the state. No idea if Massachusetts has similar level of exemptions, but i'm guessing they do. If so, makes me wonder about motive behind the tax assessor in this case.

 

[rambot]

Why shouldn't churches pay property taxes? They are using county/city resources (water, sewer, etc.) and those taxes help pay for the upkeep and development of that infrastructure/resources. You want to use it? Pay for it. .

1) Churches don't pay utility bills? Well, that's a BRAND new exception I better let our deacons in on. In the US, are utilities charged by the government or companies?

And church use of infrastructure....you mean for things like shuttle driving dinners to shelters or the infirmed? Bringing food bank donations or donations to pregnant teen centres? We do use roads for these kinds of activities.

I DO think it would run certain small churches out of business, but hey...stuff happens. It will definitely separate the sheep from the goats though...those "preachers" who are out shilling for money...as soon as they have to pay taxes on the property (Joel Osteen) they may finally just do us all a favor and shut up and stop teaching their false gospel

You seen to have it backwards. The huge churches that are out shilling money will EASILY be able to absorb those costs. In essence, the prosperity churches will thrive and those that work to help the poor and downtrodden and who are living among them (so you know, churches following God's calling) would suffer GREATLY. Also, wouldn't/shouldn't Mr. Osteen be paying his OWN taxes? I wonder though if he'd pop up in the panama papers...that wouldn't look good.

I don't think churches should be taxed anymore than I think that the Lion's club should be taxed.

 

[Tiny Bible]

Where's the crowing, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, crowd now?

Taxxachusetts of all places leave it to them. Wasn't it Romney who initiated Romney care there as a tax for non-compliance on citizens? Long years before Obamacare came to be?

God help us. Perhaps the writings on the wall with this.
And yet, wasn't it all foretold? Christians should maybe not be surprised. While the devil's minions are awash with glee.

 

[Arcangl86]

Where's the crowing, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, crowd now?

Actually it can be argued that taxing churches is actually a truer form of separation of church and state then automatically making them tax exempt.

 

[CyberPaladin]

Actually it can be argued that taxing churches is actually a truer form of separation of church and state then automatically making them tax exempt.

There not automatically made tax exempt though they have to file the same as any other nonprofit organization and further more it's not really the blanket process people like to make it out to be. At any level a government entity can decide either an organization doesn't qualify to be tax exempt or they aren't going to offer any tax exemptions.

 

[Arcangl86]

There not automatically made tax exempt though they have to file the same as any other nonprofit organization and further more it's not really the blanket process people like to make it out to be. At any level a government entity can decide either an organization doesn't qualify to be tax exempt or they aren't going to offer any tax exemptions.

Actually according to the IRS, churches don't have to file.

 

[CyberPaladin]

Actually according to the IRS, churches don't have to file.

Not having to file a tax return with IRS and automatically making them tax exempt like you were talking about before are two very different things. None of it is automatic you have file paperwork with government to get the tax exempt status and form with any place you want to use it on a yearly basis. Also some instances local governments don't grant tax exempt waivers for certain things. I know this because the church I used do bookkeeping for had to pay property tax but no sales tax at certain stores were they had the paperwork filed.

 

[WolfGate]

Not having to file a tax return with IRS and automatically making them tax exempt like you were talking about before are two very different things. None of it is automatic you have file paperwork with government to get the tax exempt status and form with any place you want to use it on a yearly basis. Also some instances local governments don't grant tax exempt waivers for certain things. I know this because the church I used do bookkeeping for had to pay property tax but no sales tax at certain stores were they had the paperwork filed.

Recognition of Tax-Exempt Status
Automatic Exemption for Churches - Churches that meet the requirements of IRC Section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.

Although there is no requirement to do so, many churches seek recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS because this recognition assures church leaders, members and contributors that the church is recognized as exempt and qualifies for related tax benefits.

Source - the IRS https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

CyberPaladin - In the case of your church I would assume yours is one that fills out the paperwork voluntarily in order to provide members confidence that the IRS would recognize donations in case of an audit, etc. That is a choice and not a requirement however.

Local government rules may vary.

 

[CyberPaladin]

Source - the IRS https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

CyberPaladin - In the case of your church I would assume yours is one that fills out the paperwork voluntarily in order to provide members confidence that the IRS would recognize donations in case of an audit, etc. That is a choice and not a requirement however.

Local government rules may vary.

No I just didn't word that part very well the IRS does require to fill out paperwork only once, with any local or state government usually only once it was with ours. The ones that require it on a yearly basis were business that you wanted the tax exemption from.

 

[WolfGate]

No I just didn't word that part very well the IRS does require to fill out paperwork only once, with any local or state government usually only once it was with ours. The ones that require it on a yearly basis were business that you wanted the tax exemption from.

CyberPaladin - a church never has to fill it out any form to be federal tax exempt. You simply have to meet the IRS definition of a church and you are tax exempt regardless of if you file a 501(c)3 application. It is crystal clear in the document I linked. You may choose to fill it out to get a piece of paper from the IRS with acknowledgement that they agree the church meets the requirements. Most churches do this. Many do not. In both cases churches are legally treated the same including that donations to the church are also tax deductible.

 

[Arcangl86]

Not having to file a tax return with IRS and automatically making them tax exempt like you were talking about before are two very different things. None of it is automatic you have file paperwork with government to get the tax exempt status and form with any place you want to use it on a yearly basis. Also some instances local governments don't grant tax exempt waivers for certain things. I know this because the church I used do bookkeeping for had to pay property tax but no sales tax at certain stores were they had the paperwork filed.

No, you do not have to file a form with the IRS applying for tax exempt status. State laws are going to be different, but at the federal level at least churches are automatically granted tax exempt status.