What about these men?

[EmSw]

Here is the thread I told Nobody'sFool I would start. What is my intention in writing this? It is to see how the Reformed deal with those who leave Calvinist. It is my belief that either Total Ability (T) or Preservation of the elect (P) in TULIP is compromised.

I will give websites of those who left Calvinism. Any comment is welcome.

https://soteriology101.wordpress.com/2014/12/08/the-5-points-that-lead-me-out-of-calvinism/

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/df-testimony.htm

http://evangelicalarminians.org/cal...-20-years-as-a-calvinist-and-intensive-study/

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Articles/exCalvinists.html

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19394&forum=34

http://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=19394&forum=34

http://beyondcalvinism.blogspot.com/2015/06/another-testimony-from-former-calvinist.html

These are only a few among hundreds one can find on the internet.

Why is it these men, who began with Calvinism, leave and sometimes totally reject Calvinism after following its tenets for years? Do you have any answers NF?

 

[nobdysfool]

I make no claim to know the hearts and minds of these men, so I cannot give you an answer. As this is still, at best, anecdotal evidence, it does not rise to the level of proof of anything other than their own individual stories, and their own individual decisions. I cannot answer for them, nor would I try. Each of us will stand before Christ, and give account of our own lives, and not the lives of any others.

What you're attempting to do is draw eternal far-reaching conclusions, from fallible individuals.

If you want those answers, ask them, not me. No one is holding a gun to your head and demanding that you accept Calvinism. If you don't want to, fine. I get that you hate Calvinism. But even with your vaunted libertarian free will, do you understand that your freedom ends where mine begins? I have as much right to believe as I see the Scriptures as you do. Trying to dissuade me of my beliefs is not a legitimate use of your freedom. That is between me and God, and ONLY me and God. So lay off this attempt to assault me and other Calvinists, and grow up.

 

[Albion]

Why is it these men, who began with Calvinism, leave and sometimes totally reject Calvinism after following its tenets for years? Do you have any answers NF?

Just try and find ANY denomination that doesn't have some people leave after a number of years and denounce the church of their former loyalty. It doesn't prove anything.

 

[John Robie]

Here is the thread I told Nobody'sFool I would start. What is my intention in writing this? It is to see how the Reformed deal with those who leave Calvinist. It is my belief that either Total Ability (T) or Preservation of the elect (P) in TULIP is compromised.

I will give websites of those who left Calvinism. Any comment is welcome.

https://soteriology101.wordpress.com/2014/12/08/the-5-points-that-lead-me-out-of-calvinism/

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/df-testimony.htm

http://evangelicalarminians.org/cal...-20-years-as-a-calvinist-and-intensive-study/

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Articles/exCalvinists.html

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19394&forum=34

http://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=19394&forum=34

http://beyondcalvinism.blogspot.com/2015/06/another-testimony-from-former-calvinist.html

These are only a few among hundreds one can find on the internet.

Why is it these men, who began with Calvinism, leave and sometimes totally reject Calvinism after following its tenets for years? Do you have any answers NF?

My guess is that they no longer believed it.

Is there a point?

 

[nobdysfool]

My guess is that they no longer believed it.

Is there a point?

He thinks there's some sort of "smoking gun" that "proves" that Calvinism is bad. He's barking up the wrong tree, but I don't think he can see that.

 

[EmSw]

I make no claim to know the hearts and minds of these men, so I cannot give you an answer. As this is still, at best, anecdotal evidence, it does not rise to the level of proof of anything other than their own individual stories, and their own individual decisions. I cannot answer for them, nor would I try. Each of us will stand before Christ, and give account of our own lives, and not the lives of any others.

So, do you stand by the perseverance of the saints? If you don't know why these men didn't persevere, then I can say, perseverance isn't what Calvinism correctly teaches. Perhaps you are a TULI Calvinist.

What you're attempting to do is draw eternal far-reaching conclusions, from fallible individuals.

You say you make no claim to know the hearts and minds of men, but then turn right around and claim to know what is in mine.

If you want those answers, ask them, not me. No one is holding a gun to your head and demanding that you accept Calvinism. If you don't want to, fine. I get that you hate Calvinism. But even with your vaunted libertarian free will, do you understand that your freedom ends where mine begins? I have as much right to believe as I see the Scriptures as you do. Trying to dissuade me of my beliefs is not a legitimate use of your freedom. That is between me and God, and ONLY me and God. So lay off this attempt to assault me and other Calvinists, and grow up.

I'm not dissuading you of your beliefs; you have the autonomous free will to choose as you wish.

I take from your answers, you have the slightest idea why men hold to Calvinism, some for years and some theologians of Calvinism, and then leave. How do you know this won't happen to you?

 

[EmSw]

Just try and find ANY denomination that doesn't have some people leave after a number of years and denounce the church of their former loyalty. It doesn't prove anything.

Some denominations teach autonomous free will of man, thus each man freely chooses to believe as they wish. Calvinism doesn't teach this.

 

[EmSw]

My guess is that they no longer believed it.

Is there a point?

My point is the P in TULIP is erroneous.

 

[EmSw]

He thinks there's some sort of "smoking gun" that "proves" that Calvinism is bad. He's barking up the wrong tree, but I don't think he can see that.

This really bothers you, doesn't it?

 

[nobdysfool]

This really bothers you, doesn't it?

No, it doesn't. From where I sit, it bothers you much more than it bothers me.

 

[nobdysfool]

So, do you stand by the perseverance of the saints? If you don't know why these men didn't persevere, then I can say, perseverance isn't what Calvinism correctly teaches. Perhaps you are a TULI Calvinist.

That might be true IF Calvinism taught that one must be Calvinist to be saved. But they don't teach that.

You say you make no claim to know the hearts and minds of men, but then turn right around and claim to know what is in mine.

Your actions are pretty transparent. It isn't hard to see what you're doing.

I'm not dissuading you of your beliefs; you have the autonomous free will to choose as you wish.

Then why do you spend so much time attacking me and the things I believe?

I take from your answers, you have the slightest idea why men hold to Calvinism, some for years and some theologians of Calvinism, and then leave. How do you know this won't happen to you?

Why is it so important to you that Calvinists remain static and never changing? That must really bother you.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

I've had about enough of this useless bickering. You're never going to take down Calvinism. You can't. You don't have the requisite knowledge to do so, as you have amply demonstrated by your frequent false statements about the Doctrines. And even if you had it all right, you still could not bring it down. Why don't you find something more worthwhile to do than trying to be a thorn in the side of your brethren?

 

[Albion]

Some denominations teach autonomous free will of man, thus each man freely chooses to believe as they wish. Calvinism doesn't teach this.

That doesn't change a thing about my comment above. Every denomination has had members of many years' standing leave and denounce that church, usually claiming to have found the truth somewhere else.

It doesn't matter what either the former or the later church body taught; you can find examples of this with Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, EO, Anglicans, Lutherans and others right here in the testimonies of CF members, as a matter of fact.

 

[nobdysfool]

My point is the P in TULIP is erroneous.

Do you even know the correct teaching on the Perseverance of the Saints?

 

[nobdysfool]

Some denominations teach autonomous free will of man, thus each man freely chooses to believe as they wish. Calvinism doesn't teach this.

They don't teach it because it isn't true.

 

[EmSw]

Do you even know the correct teaching on the Perseverance of the Saints?

Do you?

 

[EmSw]

They don't teach it because it isn't true.

And I am supposed to take your word for it?

 

[ClothedInGrace]

The teaching of the perseverance of the saints is that those God chooses to save will indeed be saved and guided by the Spirit until the very end. The teaching is not that one must or will stay a Calvinist, as Calvinism is not a requirement of salvation. These people who left Calvinism do not disprove either the T or P of TULIP. If a saved person finds themselves more convinced of another theological framework, then how exactly does that compromise the T or P? People are still sinners who need God's grace, and God's children will be saved; a person rejecting Calvinist theology doesn't have anything to do with those two truths.

 

[Job8]

My guess is that they no longer believed it. Is there a point?

Well the point is obvious. When God shows people that they are following the doctrines of men, many do repent and turn away from false teachings. Scriptures does NOT support Five Point Calvinism.

 

[EmSw]

The teaching of the perseverance of the saints is that those God chooses to save will indeed be saved and guided by the Spirit until the very end. The teaching is not that one must or will stay a Calvinist, as Calvinism is not a requirement of salvation. These people who left Calvinism do not disprove either the T or P of TULIP. If a saved person finds themselves more convinced of another theological framework, then how exactly does that compromise the T or P? People are still sinners who need God's grace, and God's children will be saved; a person rejecting Calvinist theology doesn't have anything to do with those two truths.

Thank you for answering CIG. I take you believe it is not what one believes that saves him. Most who left Calvinism, have rejected its teachings. They see the faults and shortcomings of Calvinism.

Since one of the main proponents of Calvinism (Spurgeon), called Calvinism the gospel, how would those who believe the same, consider anyone saved who rejects this gospel?

 

[nobdysfool]

Well the point is obvious. When God shows people that they are following the doctrines of men, many do repent and turn away from false teachings. Scriptures does NOT support Five Point Calvinism.

Opinions vary...

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