Jesus said you could tell the difference between those who were His followers and those who were not by the love they have for their fellow man.
I would say that would be one way of determining the difference.
In fact, the epistles of John go into great depth on this issue. He who says he loves God but hates his neighbor is a liar. Very strong words indeed.
The litmus test is how one loves. We all love sure. But how we love is the test.
We discussed this previously. Your comments are presented in quotations:
In relation to this conversation, the issue of honesty is paramount. Either you accept that people can leave Christianity honestly or you assume that their departure is driven by something else. If you accept the former, then you implicitly recognise that a sincere believer can become a sincere nonbeliever. If you accept the latter, then you either dispute the sincerity of the apostate's prior faith or the sincerity of their current nonbelief.
Let's dig into this a little deeper to expose some of the subtle nuances in these concepts we are working with.
Going back to the case I mentioned earlier where we have a young college student who we will call Tom who while growing up went to church with his parents. One day at church he said the sinners prayer and was later baptized. Tom attended church, went to VBS, sang on the choir and worked with the youth and read the bible daily. We would call Tom a sincere believer. He sincerely believed that he was an adherent to the one true religion. Now Tom is at UNC and has been listening to Bart Ehrman talk about Jesus. Over time Ehrman's views seem to make more and more sense to Tom. Tom begins to think that maybe Jesus really was just a misunderstood man and that maybe He really was not God after all. Over time, he finds himself losing faith so to speak. Eventually he no longer identifies as Christian and rather chooses to be seen as an agnostic or whatever.
I believe this can and does happen.
I allow that you could be just like Tom was in the case study.
Someone who was once an adherent to Christianity, but for some reason revised their beliefs and no longer identify as such.
Let me say this.
I make a distinction between an adherent to Christianity and a born-again Christian.
The latter entails the former, but the former does not necessarily entail the latter.
There are people who identify as Christians but who have never been born again. These people may be very sincere when it comes to their beliefs. They may pray regularly and even have feelings from time to time that they believe are a result from being in the presence of God. These people may even be preachers, pastors, apologists, evangelists or choir directors or what have you. Nontheless, these people, since they are not born-again, are spiritually dead. They stand condemned before God and all the good works they do are done of the flesh and of their own will. These are they which Christ spoke of when He said, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
So from what Jesus said, it is clear that there are some who call Jesus Lord and are sincere believers and even do the proverbial "good works", but in the end, lack that which really matters. An intimate and personal relationship with God who's will they take as their own.
You introduced a distinction between people who are (a) adherents of Christianity and (b) born-again Christians. Is this a meaningful distinction? When you meet someone who professes to be a "Christian," how do you determine whether they are (a) or (b)? You already recognise that (a) and (b) are indistinguishable in terms of sincerity and behaviour: they both pray, go to church, read the Bible, study theology, become pastors and choir directors, and so on. So how do you differentiate the two?
Suppose this conversation was taking place 8 years ago. Would you have classified me as (a) or (b) and why? You clearly think that I fell into category (a) because I am no longer a believer, but would you have concluded that 8 years ago? Probably not. You would have considered me a "brother in Christ," a true "born-again Christian." At the very least, you wouldn't have questioned me if I professed to belong to (b), just as you don't question your own category membership.
This leads us to another salient question: how do you know that you belong to (b) and not (a)? Given your definition of these categories, it seems that those who belong to (a) would nevertheless strongly believe that they belong to (b). Could you be one such person? How could you tell? You couldn't rely on outward signs of devotion like prayer and church attendance, since members of (a) also exhibit these behaviours. You couldn't rely on your personal religious experience either, since you recognise that members of (a) also have feelings they attribute to the presence of God. So how do you know that you are a member of (b)? How do you know that any professing Christian is a member of (b)?
This is a good question. I think it important to say that when I meet someone, whoever it is, I attempt to befriend them and just to love them and to get to know more about them as I share with them who I am regardless of what their beliefs are. Now, when it comes to specifically discerning between (a) or (b), I try to be cautious in remembering that it is very easy to fall into sin by attempting to judge one's personal relationship with God. At the end of the day, I do not know what is in their heart. The Holy Spirit living in me surely knows, but most of the time He sees fit to not divulge to me the condition of their heart. Now obviously I can ask a person certain questions, like "have you been born again?" or "why are you a follower of Christ?" and from the answers they give, I can kind of get an idea of whether they would be an (a) or a (b). But none of this provides me with certainty. For one may indeed know precisely what to say so as to appear for all intents and purposes as one who is a (b), but in reality is an (a). One may even sincerely think that they are a (b) when in reality they are an (a). God alone knows and divulges this to those to whom He wills when He wills. IOW, we have certain indicators that will kind of give us a general idea of where a person stands, but ultimately it is God alone who judges the heart.
It seems to me that you really have no way of knowing whether any given Christian belongs to (a) or (b). After all, their behaviour is indistinguishable: both are sincere in their belief, both pray, both study the Bible, etc. In fact, the problem goes deeper, because those who belong to (a) will profess that they in fact belong to (b).
I would not question you if I had no reason to. If someone tells me they are born again then I tend to take them at their word. Now if after telling me this, you displayed indicators that demonstrate you are not born-again, then I would not be as inclined to take you at your word but I would still withhold judgement on the matter.
For example, there are certain things you have said to me that indicate to me that you have not been born again. You have said that you no longer believe that Jesus was God incarnate. You have said that the Holy Spirit does not abide in you. You have said that there are no good reasons to think Christianity is true as opposed to Islam or Judaism. All of these are indicators to me that you would fall into category (a). Could I be wrong? Yes. You may indeed even now have God's Spirit abiding in you. You may be born-again and are just very confused about the whole matter. Judging from what the scriptures say and in conjunction with my personal knowledge of God, I think Ben, that you are a person who sincerely believed at one point the confession you made, but nontheless, never was born again. I say this because I remember vividly feeling the conviction of God while in church and even being drawn to go to the altar to pray and even did so, several times. Nevertheless, none of those times did I have an encounter with God. I went back to the pew every time still dead in my trespasses and sins although I did have a sense of peace and well-being. For whatever reason, my time had not yet come. But one day shortly before my 21st birthday, my heart had been prepared and I was able to see myself as God saw me for the very first time. Dirty. Filthy. Hopeless and helpless. In need of a saviour. I had an acute awareness of my sinfulness and this was a result of God's grace in making me aware of my true state. This was different than those times in the past where I felt an unction to move to the altar. I was not even in a church at the time when this occurred. I was alone in a dark room. I had been thinking about my life and the things I had done and I felt something drawing me to come to my senses and be honest with myself. Brutally honest. It was a most fearful thing, for so long had I suppressed my emotions and suppressed the conviction of God that I had become a numbed zombie walking about. I knew that if I allowed all of those things I had done to come rushing back before my mind's eye, I would be undone. Speaking of it now, I see that God so ordered providence that I would have to either have it out with Him or make my decision to forever be rid of Him. There would be no more procrastination, no more putting it off and in sorrow I yielded. Oh how liberating it was to bow down and allow myself to become undone under the mighty presence of the Almighty God! Once I pressed on through the veil of darkness with only faith as my guide, my heart of stone melted before the light and love of God Almighty and I basked in His presence and arose thereafter a new creation. Praise be to God this day for His lovingkindness towards me!
Consider this experience for a moment and ask yourself whether someone who belonged to (a) could report a similar experience. Indeed, they could. You acknowledged earlier that members of (a) also have feelings that they attribute to the presence of God. So either there is something wrong with your classification scheme or you are forced into uncertainty about your own membership status.
These are very good questions. Some I have asked myself on more than one occasion. I think there is an answer.
How do I know I belong to (b) and not (a). Fundamentally, it is by the Holy Spirit bearing witness with my spirit that I am a Child of God and an heir to the promise in conjunction with a desire to do the will of God.
These qualities are also present in members of (a). After all, you consider me to be a member of (a) and I believed that the Holy Spirit bore witness to my transformation into a "Child of God" (i.e., I believed I belonged to b.) Fundamentally, what you are reporting here is not inconsistent with something a member of (a) would report.
How do I know I belong to (b) and not (a). Fundamentally, it is by the Holy Spirit bearing witness with my spirit that I am a Child of God and an heir to the promise in conjunction with a desire to do the will of God.
I do think that some who are in fact in (a) believe strongly that they are in fact in (b). Jesus told us about this earlier. I desire to do the will of God.
So did I! And I was a member of (a), according to you. So did Dan Barker, who was a Christian preacher for 19 years. So did Jerry DeWitt, a former evangelical pastor. So did Seth Andrews, a former Christian broadcaster. So did Matt Dillahunty, who sought to become a minister. So did Ryan Bell, a former Seventh Day Adventist pastor. So did Vyckie Garrison, a former member of the Quiverfull movement. So did all the members of
The Clergy Project.
