"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

[SkyWriting]

Yes..............stories.

One must decide if they are lairs or not.
Like from your mom.

 

[SteveB28]

Correct. If man could alter our experiences, no one would ever win the Superbowl.
As I just explained, God can alter your prayers to match with His desires for you.

I see. So when a grieving husband prays to your god, asking that his ailing wife be spared, only to see her die, this prayer was actually directed by your god so that he could then disappoint the husband.

Wonderful. I cant tell you how impressed I am about your god's compassion!

 

[SteveB28]

One must decide if they are lairs or not.
Like from your mom.

Stories that carry no truth don't have to be lies. They can simply be a wrong interpretation.

 

[variant]

Ordinary evidence would do if it produced consistent and repeatable results.

Some stories from people I've never met claiming to see things that are well outside my experience isn't likely to do it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

1) What makes a claim extraordinary?

It seems pretty self explanatory to me...
It's extraordinary when it is "out of the ordinary".

ie, when the claim flies in the face of common knowledge and experience.

"I watched a move starring Jeniffer Aniston last night" is an ordinary claim.
Jeniffer exists and she is an actress. She has done plenty of movies and most of those are broadcasted on TV quite regurarly. They are also on Netflix and similar on demand services. Then there are also DVD's that you can buy and play.

"...Jeniffer then came out of the TV set and made love to me" is an extraordinary claim.
Characters from TV don't usually crawl out of the TV set.

2) Where's the line between requiring sufficient evidence for an extraordinary claim and requiring unreasonable evidence for a non-extraordinary claim?

That would depend entirely on the claim. The claim defines what evidence would be sufficient. I don't think there's a generic answer to this one. It will have to be seen on a case by case basis.

3) How does one determine when sufficient evidence has been given to believe a claim?

Same as above... that would depend entirely on the claim.

Isn't it all just arbitrary based on our own suppositions and prior beliefs / biases?

I don't think so, no.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I think the consensus of the day does.
The existence of God was hardly disputed in the past, but nowadays we've been fed naturalism, which makes it an extraordinary claim.

No, not "naturalism".
Instead, we decided to start caring about being justified in our beliefs.

Taking claims at mere face-value no longer was acceptable.
I think people started realising this slowly but surely, as science started to refute things that were previously taken for granted (on faith).

Something like "if all these things that we previously believed on faith turn out to be wrong... then maybe we should start being a little more sceptical about these other things that we also simply take on faith and/or simply assume to be true..."

 

[SkyWriting]

Stories that carry no truth don't have to be lies. They can simply be a wrong interpretation.

But after hearing the same type of story enough times from your mother (not mine)
one begins to sense that these are honest people not insane or deluded.

Then after you experience it yourself, ideas change on the fallacy of the stories.
I appreciate your allowance that they are not liars though.

 

[SkyWriting]

I see. So when a grieving husband prays to your god, asking that his ailing wife be spared, only to see her die, this prayer was actually directed by your god so that he could then disappoint the husband. Wonderful. I cant tell you how impressed I am about your god's compassion!

Interesting that you and the husband are concerned about extending the
ladies life, and you fail to mention her prayers.

I said it was hard work to hear God Spirit. Imagine how hard it is
to turn over the results to God in such a situation. And I am speaking about
answered prayer for my wife. And it was VERY hard to let go of my request.
But the instant I did, it stopped raining and the sun came out in addition
to having my request for her answered.

In analysis, did God intervene in the weather? I think not. God changed my
prayers to match His planned outcome. It's simple and available to anyone.
But it's not easy.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

1) What makes a claim extraordinary?

2) Where's the line between requiring sufficient evidence for an extraordinary claim and requiring unreasonable evidence for a non-extraordinary claim?

3) How does one determine when sufficient evidence has been given to believe a claim?

I think Hume put it quite well in 1753: "A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence", and "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."

Isn't it all just arbitrary based on our own suppositions and prior beliefs / biases?

Of course it depends our own suppositions and prior beliefs / biases; but it isn't necessarily arbitrary. It seems to me that if our suppositions, prior beliefs, and biases, are the product of diligent attention to what we can verifiably know about the world and its operations, our best models of how the world works, and skeptical and critical thinking, we're likely to be in a better position to make sound judgements than otherwise. YMMV.

 

[Davian]

Correct. If man could alter our experiences, no one would ever win the Superbowl.
As I just explained, God can alter your prayers to match with His desires for you.

Is that what happened back in 2011 when Governor Perry prayed for rain, and God sent fires instead?

Office of the Governor Rick Perry - [Proclamation] Gov. Perry Issues Proclamation for Days of Prayer for Rain in Texas

 

[SteveB28]

But after hearing the same type of story enough times from your mother (not mine)
one begins to sense that these are honest people not insane or deluded.

Then after you experience it yourself, ideas change on the fallacy of the stories.
I appreciate your allowance that they are not liars though.

And I'm sure all those mothers who instructed their children that the world was flat were once believed.

They weren't lying. They were just wrong.

 

[SteveB28]

Interesting that you and the husband are concerned about extending the
ladies life, and you fail to mention her prayers.

I said it was hard work to hear God Spirit. Imagine how hard it is
to turn over the results to God in such a situation. And I am speaking about
answered prayer for my wife. And it was VERY hard to let go of my request.
But the instant I did, it stopped raining and the sun came out in addition
to having my request for her answered.

In analysis, did God intervene in the weather? I think not. God changed my
prayers to match His planned outcome. It's simple and available to anyone.
But it's not easy.

My comments were in the general, not the particular.

You said that your God "alters" our prayers to match his "desires" for us.

Very well. I repeat my scenario. A spouse prays for their very ill partner to recover. According to your theory, your God has "altered" that prayer to match his own desires.

The partner dies. How is this in accord with his altering your prayer? It seems callous and cruel.

"Go ahead and pray for your partner - I'm going to kill them anyway!"

 

[SkyWriting]

My comments were in the general, not the particular.

You said that your God "alters" our prayers to match his "desires" for us.

Very well. I repeat my scenario. A spouse prays for their very ill partner to recover. According to your theory, your God has "altered" that prayer to match his own desires.

The partner dies. How is this in accord with his altering your prayer? It seems callous and cruel.

"Go ahead and pray for your partner - I'm going to kill them anyway!"

You didn't mention the prayers of the ill person.
What could be more cruel than having other people with control over your destiny?
I'm also sensing that you want the ill person to have a longer life as well.
That's two humans trying to run your life and death. Yikes!

 

[SkyWriting]

You said that your God "alters" our prayers to match his "desires" for us.

I said.....it's very hard work to get to the point where God's Spirit can
be in control of your prayers. But it works every time that you do.

 

[SkyWriting]

And I'm sure all those mothers who instructed their children that the world was flat were once believed.They weren't lying. They were just wrong.

They were 99.9 percent correct.
Your view is warped.
Mom's could teach that matter doesn't exist as well.
We are only very tiny bits of energy held together by
a set of rules we don't understand why they exist.

All mom's, except yours, could teach that reality then
your views on matter and reality would seem ignorant
as well.

 

[SteveB28]

You didn't mention the prayers of the ill person.
What could be more cruel than having other people with control over your destiny?
I'm also sensing that you want the ill person to have a longer life as well.
That's two humans trying to run your life and death. Yikes!

What? You make no sense.

 

[SteveB28]

I said.....it's very hard work to get to the point where God's Spirit can
be in control of your prayers. But it works every time that you do.

Ditto my last comment.

 

[SteveB28]

They were 99.9 percent correct.
Your view is warped.
Mom's could teach that matter doesn't exist as well.
We are only very tiny bits of energy held together by
a set of rules we don't understand why they exist.

All mom's, except yours, could teach that reality then
your views on matter and reality would seem ignorant
as well.

And again.

 

[Loudmouth]

Isn't it all just arbitrary based on our own suppositions and prior beliefs / biases?

It isn't arbitrary. Claims based on mountains of verifiable evidence are not considered extraordinary.

 

[Loudmouth]

Interesting that you and the husband are concerned about extending the
ladies life, and you fail to mention her prayers.

I said it was hard work to hear God Spirit. Imagine how hard it is
to turn over the results to God in such a situation. And I am speaking about
answered prayer for my wife. And it was VERY hard to let go of my request.
But the instant I did, it stopped raining and the sun came out in addition
to having my request for her answered.

In analysis, did God intervene in the weather? I think not. God changed my
prayers to match His planned outcome. It's simple and available to anyone.
But it's not easy.

IOW, the results are indistinguishable from God doing nothing.