.

[jimmyjimmy]

Christ gave to David this prophesy of Himself:

"And I became as a man that heareth not,
And that hath in his mouth no reproof..."

Martyrs in their martyric witness need no words...
You do know that martyr means witness/testimony, yes?

Following Christ is not a matter of (sophmoric) proof and rebuttal...
This is the neo-scholastic trap of the children of Scholasticism...

Instead, following Christ is a matter of repentance and Grace...
The taking up of one's own cross...
In agony and joy unto death...

Arsenios

Both parties here claim to be Christians. There is nothing sophomoric about debate to arrive at truth in this instance.

Being a martyr does not automatically make you correct on all issues of doctrine. David Koresh was a martyr. Shall I quote him?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

OK... It simply did not feel all that off topic to me...

What are you doing up so early? Or are you an east coast poster?

I am still trying to go to bed after 3AM Services...

Arsenios

Go to sleep.

 

[Arsenios]

Both parties here claim to be Christians. There is nothing sophomoric about debate to arrive at truth in this instance.

Being a martyr does not automatically make you correct on all issues of doctrine. David Koresh was a martyr. Shall I quote him?

I am telling you, Brian, that proofs are traps...
NEO-scholasticism is still Scholasticism...
Revelation unto confessing Christ...
Is the Rock upon which the Church is built...
Because Christ is the Headstone of the Corner...

You will be judged by your deeds, not your proofs...

Here is the problem with proofs...

They are subject to proof...

God is not...

Nor was Paul...

The carnal [proofs] does not judge the Spiritual [Revelation]

That is backwards, you see...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Both parties here claim to be Christians. There is nothing sophomoric about debate to arrive at truth in this instance.

Being a martyr does not automatically make you correct on all issues of doctrine. David Koresh was a martyr. Shall I quote him?

Silence can give wisdom to the foolish...

Good night!

A.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I am telling you, Brian, that proofs are traps...
NEO-scholasticism is still Scholasticism...
Revelation unto confessing Christ...
Is the Rock upon which the Church is built...
Because Christ is the Headstone of the Corner...

You will be judged by your deeds, not your proofs...

Here is the problem with proofs...

They are subject to proof...

God is not...

Nor was Paul...

The carnal [proofs] does not judge the Spiritual [Revelation]

That is backwards, you see...

Arsenios

This is why I insist that all proof is biblical proof. There must be some agreed upon basis for truth. If not, I can simply use my personal experience to try and trump your personal experience. That gets us nowhere.

 

[Arsenios]

This is why I insist that all proof is biblical proof.
There must be some agreed upon basis for truth.

That basis for truth is identified in the Bible...
And not only the basis but its presentation in the world...

1Timothy 3:14-15
These things I am writing to you
hoping to come unto you shortly
But if I should delay, [this epistle is]
in order that you should perceive how it is necessary
in the Household of God to conduct one's self,
which is the Ekklesia of the Living God,
the pillar and ground of the Truth.

It is this Ekklesia, Christ's Body, the Church
that gave us Holy Scripture,
and it is the Ekklesia that has been interpreting it for 2000 years...
It is this Ekklesia for which Paul suffered...

To DIVIDE and to SEPARATE Holy Writ from the Faith of the Ekklesia that wrote and preserved and gave it to us,
and to turn it into the debatable words of contradicting proofs based on what was written,
alone and by its grammatical self,
is to scorn the words Paul wrote to Timothy above,
and will destroy the Faith of Christ
which you think you are preserving
by clutching to Scripture alone all by itself...

And if you look around right here in the USA, you will see young people fleeing from the sola churches, and Christianity on Decline, in full self-destruct mode, the Presbyterians and the Methodists and the Lutherans... Europe is virtually atheist, and Islam is taking it over, and real Christians are getting killed by Islam all over the Middle East... Singled out and killed methodically...

By their fruit shall ye know them...
Martyrdom is blessed Fruit, my Brother...
Old Churches being turned into restaurants and art galleries is not...

Arsenios

 

[sunlover1]

That basis for truth is identified in the Bible...
And not only the basis but its presentation in the world...

1Timothy 3:14-15
These things I am writing to you
hoping to come unto you shortly
But if I should delay, [this epistle is]
in order that you should perceive how it is necessary
in the Household of God to conduct one's self,
which is the Ekklesia of the Living God,
the pillar and ground of the Truth.

It is this Ekklesia, Christ's Body, the Church
that gave us Holy Scripture,
and it is the Ekklesia that has been interpreting it for 2000 years...
It is this Ekklesia for which Paul suffered...

To DIVIDE and to SEPARATE Holy Writ from the Faith of the Ekklesia that wrote and preserved and gave it to us,
and to turn it into the debatable words of contradicting proofs based on what was written,
alone and by its grammatical self,
is to scorn the words Paul wrote to Timothy above,
and will destroy the Faith of Christ
which you think you are preserving
by clutching to Scripture alone all by itself...

And if you look around right here in the USA, you will see young people fleeing from the sola churches, and Christianity on Decline, in full self-destruct mode, the Presbyterians and the Methodists and the Lutherans... Europe is virtually atheist, and Islam is taking it over, and real Christians are getting killed by Islam all over the Middle East... Singled out and killed methodically...

By their fruit shall ye know them...
Martyrdom is blessed Fruit, my Brother...
Old Churches being turned into restaurants and art galleries is not...

Arsenios

Scripture scripture, plenty of Scripture
Duly noted

This is an excellent post Arsenios!
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
Deep cries out to deep!

 

[swordsman1]

And then, on another occasion, Who's voice "woke" me in the
night (with a bright light too!), to tell me to pray for another
woman who was 40 and wanted nothing more than to have a
baby, but was told by doctors that there's no way.. The tubes
were for the most part non existant due to disease.... and in
fact, I knew they did NOT want kids at this late age, (so I
thought, but God knows the heart of the barren woman)? Maybe
that was the devil too? Because he's in the business of fortelling
the future? NO.. He can't heal, He kills, steals and destroys. And
he couldn't have foretold the future because he doesn't have the
Holy Spirit so can't even understand prophesy.
Her baby just had his first baby btw! Granny and grandpa take
care of that baby full time while mommy works and are in Heaven
on earth. Praise the Name of Jesus!
I have more! Please don't say it's in my head or that it's demons.

Anecdotes and stories, no matter how heart warming and convincing, are not what determines truth. They make no contribution to doctrine no matter how sincerely they are made. Only scripture can do that. And nowhere does scripture teach that God gives us instructions via our feelings. It is a completely man made idea.

IT's in the Scriptures, just as clearly as the Trinity is there.
It's just something some cannot see. (or are, in your words,
stubborn?)

No it is not in the scriptures. The most you have offered in way of a proof text is "My sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me". You say "my voice" is a strong feeling. I say it is his words and teaching as recorded in scripture (seeing as scripture is frequently described as the "voice" of God in other parts of the bible). Which is the more likely interpretation bearing in mind the result of hearing his voice is that we follow him?

The Bible is full of demonstrations
of God speaking to His people. In fact, if not for Him speaking to His
people, there would be no Bible.

No He didn't speak to his people, only to a select few of them. Only to a handful of his special ambassadors such as Moses, Elijah, Paul, etc. Just because God spoke audibly to the prophets and big names of the bible on special occasions doesn't mean it is normative for us, just as it isn't normative for us to part the Red Sea, call fire down from heaven, or raise the dead. And the voice they heard was the audible voice of God, not a feeling or an impression which they then verbalized using their own words.

 

[swordsman1]

This is historical evidence that the early church believed in and practiced prophecy after the closing of the canon.

The propose of prophecy in the fledgling church was to give knowledge of the faith to believers who did not have a New Testament in their hands (as it hadn't been written yet). As soon as they had a copy of the NT in their churches they had all the revelation they needed to be "thoroughly equipped for every good work". So prophecy didn't suddenly cease the moment John wrote the last the word in the book of Revelation. It continued for a while as the completed canon was being distributed among the churches. As that was achieved over the subsequent decades, the gift gradually disappeared.

 

[Don Maurer]

That basis for truth is identified in the Bible...
And not only the basis but its presentation in the world...

1Timothy 3:14-15
These things I am writing to you
hoping to come unto you shortly
But if I should delay, [this epistle is]
in order that you should perceive how it is necessary
in the Household of God to conduct one's self,
which is the Ekklesia of the Living God,
the pillar and ground of the Truth.

It is this Ekklesia, Christ's Body, the Church
that gave us Holy Scripture,
and it is the Ekklesia that has been interpreting it for 2000 years...
It is this Ekklesia for which Paul suffered...

To DIVIDE and to SEPARATE Holy Writ from the Faith of the Ekklesia that wrote and preserved and gave it to us,
and to turn it into the debatable words of contradicting proofs based on what was written,
alone and by its grammatical self,
is to scorn the words Paul wrote to Timothy above,
and will destroy the Faith of Christ
which you think you are preserving
by clutching to Scripture alone all by itself...

And if you look around right here in the USA, you will see young people fleeing from the sola churches, and Christianity on Decline, in full self-destruct mode, the Presbyterians and the Methodists and the Lutherans... Europe is virtually atheist, and Islam is taking it over, and real Christians are getting killed by Islam all over the Middle East... Singled out and killed methodically...

By their fruit shall ye know them...
Martyrdom is blessed Fruit, my Brother...
Old Churches being turned into restaurants and art galleries is not...

Arsenios

Your support of the Catholic doctrine on the supreme authority of the Church over scriptures cannot be supported from the text you quote. That text is merely an exhortation to live correctly in the "household of God" or among the people of God. It says nothing about giving authority to the Church to reign over scriptures. Man is that one out of context.

 

[Don Maurer]

The propose of prophecy in the fledgling church was to give knowledge of the faith to believers who did not have a New Testament in their hands (as it hadn't been written yet). As soon as they had a copy of the NT in their churches they had all the revelation they needed to be "thoroughly equipped for every good work". So prophecy didn't suddenly cease the moment John wrote the last the word in the book of Revelation. It continued for a while as the completed canon was being distributed among the churches. As that was achieved over the subsequent decades, the gift gradually disappeared.

Agreed. If I might add, there were prophets after the close of the cannon, although they were outside orthodoxy. The heretical sect of Montanism had its false prophets. Of course many today that claim to hear the word of God are outside orthodoxy also. Such are the modalistic (non-trinitarian) Pentecostals who also hear the word of God.

 

[Don Maurer]

Scripture scripture, plenty of Scripture
Duly noted

This is an excellent post Arsenios!
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.
Deep cries out to deep!

Interesting, but I am not surprised that you would approve of the doctrine of the authority of the Church over Scriptures.

 

[Arsenios]

Your support of the Catholic doctrine on the supreme authority of the Church over scriptures
cannot be supported from the text you quote. That text is merely an exhortation to live correctly
in the "household of God" or among the people of God.
It says nothing about giving authority to the Church to reign over scriptures.
Man is that one out of context.

I wrote nothing of authority, but wrote of interpretation of Scripture - It has a 2000 year history in Christ's Apostolic Church, from which the Catholic Church is now and has been for a thousand years an Apostate... We GAVE the Greek Scripture to the Latin Roman Catholic Church, which they translated into Latin...

The point has nothing to do with Church Authoritarianism, as the Latin Church would wrongly have you believe, and the authority of the "Chair of Peter" over the whole Church... That idea is nonsense... Christ is the Head of His Body, the Church...

The ONLY point I am making is that there IS a 2000 year Holy Tradition of interpretation of Holy Scripture by the Body of Christ which you are ignoring in your love for the words and grammar and private interpretation... Holy Scripture was REVEALED to the Church, and you doubtless already know that Revelation is not a matter of private interpretation, but of the corporate Body of Christ...

Holy Writ was written FOR the worshiping Body of Christ, the Church... It was not written for anyone to just read, have a spiritual experience, claim the Holy Spirit, and have their own opinions which they then try to prove against all comers... THAT line is just nuts...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Interesting, but I am not surprised that you would approve of the doctrine of the authority of the Church over Scriptures.

I affirm the authorship of NT Scripture as being that of Holy Ones in the Body of Christ...

Just as OT Scripture was authored by Holy Ones of the Ekklesia of the OT Hebrews...

The Orthodox Church is authoritative without being authoritarian...

There are many pericopes having multiple pious opinions...

And there are many that do not...

Arsenios

 

[Peter J Barban]

Here is an excellent message on hearing God's voice in prayer by David Wilkerson, who himself has prophesied accurately.

Snippet:
"When the voice of God is not heard, men run and labor for Him without a mandate - they are on their own! I've been there: doing good things, taking on challenges, believing fully that I was standing up against the worker of iniquity! I wound up thousands of dollars in debt, weary and disillusioned, crying for help at every turn. I had not been sent by God. I couldn't understand. I was broken, burdened, willing to give up so much. But is was not born out of prayer - it was human compassion! It was not God's way!

But once I said, "No more, Lord! Not a step more, unless You command it - not a move until Your voice is heard!" then whatever money was needed has been there - because God supports what He originates. It is joy with no burden, peace with no begging! The begging in ministries today is a result of men doing good things without being sent by God's voice. Their own desires are being mistaken for God's voice."

I have to admit that I allow the busyness of life to crowd out my time alone with God, so that prayers are mostly lists of things that I want God to do. I need to get back to serious listening mode.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Here is a dream that I posted about 7 years ago on another forum. This dream shows how God responded to my prayer.

"This week I had an unusual dream. In fact I was just settling down to sleep and was somewhere between waking and sleeping. I had been unsettled because of conflict between my wife, my daughter and I and our continued inability to resolve those conflicts.

In this dream, my wife, my daughter and I were in the middle of a raging river trying to stay together and stay alive. Often we would get separated by the churning water. Soon the water went spiraling downward into a black cave and became even more choppy. I didn't look like were were going to make it out of the cave alive. Then I woke up and told Jesus that I didn't want that to be our future.

A few seconds later I again began to dream. My family and I were still on the same river and at the same point we started from in the first dream but this time were were in a narrow, flat boat, perhaps a skiff. Jesus was in the boat and guiding it down the dangerous river. I sat in the boat next to Jesus and my wife and daughter sat in the front of the boat facing downriver. Just as before we went spirally down in the dangerous black cave, but while the river remained deadly, we were safe and calm in the boat with Jesus at the helm.

I don't usually have dreams like this, so I thought is was worth noting. My simple interpretation is that my family has been unsuccessfully trying so deal with problems under our own strength. If we follow Jesus guidance instead, we'll come out OK. Specifically, my relationship with Christ is critical to our journey."

Now, seven years later, my family's relationships are wonderfully better. Thanks be to Jesus Christ for showing me what to do through a dream.

 

[sunlover1]

Interesting, but I am not surprised that you would approve of the doctrine of the authority of the Church over Scriptures.

You should be!
Because I do no such thing!
Hay no!
I been delivered of Catholicism
Lol
(Just playing around)
I was raised RC but no, once I began to read the Bible I switched to plain old CHRISTIAN.
Denominations didn't originate with God and are in fact, heretical, according to Scripture.

 

[Arsenios]

But once I said, "No more, Lord!
Not a step more, unless You command it -
not a move until Your voice is heard!"

Or...
Biblically...
Psalm 132:

LORD, remember David, and all his afflictions:
How he sware unto the LORD,
and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob;

"Surely
I will not come into the tabernacle of my house,
nor go up into my bed;
I will not give sleep to mine eyes,
or slumber to mine eyelids,
Until I find out a place for the LORD,
an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob.

Lo, we heard of it at Ephratah:
We found it in the fields of the wood.
We will go into his tabernacles:
We will worship at his footstool.

Arise, O LORD, into thy rest;
Thou, and the ark of thy strength.
Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness;
And let thy saints shout for joy.
For thy servant David's sake
Turn not away the face of thine anointed."

Arsenios

 

[Peter J Barban]

Or...
Biblically...
Psalm 132:

LORD, remember David, and all his afflictions:
How he sware unto the LORD,
and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob;

"Surely
I will not come into the tabernacle of my house,
nor go up into my bed;
I will not give sleep to mine eyes,
or slumber to mine eyelids,
Until I find out a place for the LORD,
an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob.

Lo, we heard of it at Ephratah:
We found it in the fields of the wood.
We will go into his tabernacles:
We will worship at his footstool.

Arise, O LORD, into thy rest;
Thou, and the ark of thy strength.
Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness;
And let thy saints shout for joy.
For thy servant David's sake
Turn not away the face of thine anointed."

Arsenios

Thanks Arsenios, this post seems more annointed than most (including my own). I'll meditate on this Psalm in relationship to 2-way prayer.

 

[Don Maurer]

You should be!
Because I do no such thing!
Hay no!
I been delivered of Catholicism
Lol
(Just playing around)
I was raised RC but no, once I began to read the Bible I switched to plain old CHRISTIAN.
Denominations didn't originate with God and are in fact, heretical, according to Scripture.

Arsenio's posted on his view of Church authority over scripture and you said it was a great post. It does not look to me like your out of Catholicism. You deny sola scriptura, maybe you left the RCC as a matter of taste, but I do not see that the RCC left you.