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Did God Create Fossils?

AllIsrael

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it should be important to all Christians to realize that most of issues discussed here are irrelevant to whether or not that person is actually I saved member of God's family.

I agree. But God does give us a general explanation of creation, one that has been able to well-inform Bible readers since long before we had contemporary science to investigate and give us its assessment. Nowadays, we lay scientific explanations along side the scriptures. From Genesis, we positively get that God created the heavens, the earth, sun, moon and stars, dry land, seas, firmament, plant and animal life, and human life. There is no mistaking what is said about these things: God created it all. This part of Scripture we can rely upon with all our being. Nothing science can discover can prove that God doesn't exist or isn't the Creator of all things.

From there, the issue of old or young earth gets speculative. A quick and telling example is the use of yom, the Hebrew word for the English day in Genesis 1. Just as in English, the Hebrew yom can mean the time from sun up to sundown, a full 24 period, or an era or age. Other passages claim that to God a day is like a thousand years, and vice versa. On this topic alone, take your pick as to the time-span of yom. You could be right or wrong on which ever definition you choose. It appears that God is leaving this question open without telling us exact details on how it happened. After all, Daniel wanted to know the meaning of all the details of his visions and thoughts, to which God replied that it was not the proper time for him to know. We would do well to remember this in our ideas about just exactly how God created the heavens and the earth and their content, while remaining in absolute certainty that it was indeed He that made it happen and brought it all to be.

But as mb5498 says, this is [more or less] irrelevant toward salvation. A believer is going to believe that creation comes from and by God, but getting it right on all the details is not going to save a person from their sin. Only Jesus on the cross can do that, and only He can raise us up to eternal life on the last day. Praise God and Hallelujah for these things -- and that we can understand and know them, and to be grateful for these blessings He gives us, and to share them with others!
 
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Hoghead1

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I don't think the meaning of "days" is left all that open, Alllsrael. It's pretty clear that the P source, the author of Gen. 1 had in mind 24-hour days. That is based o n the fact that the events cover a week. The purpose is to overcome polytheism, which often had different gods worshipped on different days. Here, the same God is worshipped on all days.
The interesting thing is that actually Genesis contains two contradictory accounts or chronologies. In Gen. 1, first animals, then man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. Gen, 2 was probably written way earlier than Gen. 1. The biblical editors simply edited these two different accounts together. There were two different creation myths in Judaism and they couldn't decide which one was right, so they put them both in and let the reader pick one. This may seem careless. However, it must be remembered that in the Bible, God's major revelations all occur in history, not nature. The editors had very little interest in addressing questions of nature and so quickly slapped something together here. If you take a look at nature religions, you will find the creation accounts go on and on.
 
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Abraxos

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I don't think the meaning of "days" is left all that open, Alllsrael. It's pretty clear that the P source, the author of Gen. 1 had in mind 24-hour days. That is based o n the fact that the events cover a week. The purpose is to overcome polytheism, which often had different gods worshipped on different days. Here, the same God is worshipped on all days.
The interesting thing is that actually Genesis contains two contradictory accounts or chronologies. In Gen. 1, first animals, then man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. Gen, 2 was probably written way earlier than Gen. 1. The biblical editors simply edited these two different accounts together. There were two different creation myths in Judaism and they couldn't decide which one was right, so they put them both in and let the reader pick one. This may seem careless. However, it must be remembered that in the Bible, God's major revelations all occur in history, not nature. The editors had very little interest in addressing questions of nature and so quickly slapped something together here. If you take a look at nature religions, you will find the creation accounts go on and on.

When I first read the Bible (KJV), I interpreted the Genesis account through evolutionary goggles; only since maybe 2 years ago I realized the Genesis account of creation was meant to be taken literally. God even empathizes a 24 hour day "And there was evening and there was morning."

Also, Genesis 1 and 2 do not contradict each other. Genesis 2 is a recap and a more detailed explanation of the sixth day, the day that Adam and Eve were made. The recap is stated in Gen. 2:4, "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." Then, Moses goes on to detail the creation of Adam and Eve as is seen in verses 7 thru 24 of Gen. 2. Proof that it is not a creative account is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam was created.
 
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Hoghead1

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Thanks for your input, Abraxos. Can't say as I agree, however. Linguistic differences alone mark these texts as written by two different authors from two different time periods. I am committed to modern biblical scholarship, and the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch went out the window years ago. Today, we deal with multiple sources assembled by later redactors. I am gong to include a synopsis of my position, below.


When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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Abraxos

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Wall of text

Um It's common knowledge that Genesis 1 and 2 do not contradict each other. It's right there in black and white.

Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. Or is it?

If you take the Genesis account of creation literally it would indeed be in stark contradiction to the evolution worldview. Thing is, evolution isn't scientific fact.
Whenever someone tries to use scientific evidence against the existence of God or against the truth of Christianity or the word of God, they're not doing science they're doing philosophy. They're doing naturalistic materialistic philosophy. And if you can understand that to be true, and able to articulate that to others, then you will realize just how much Christianity is head above shoulders on all the false worldviews people hold today. There is no need to try and squeeze God and His word into the evolutionists worldview, God wrote science. Saying that science is of the Devil is a lie conducted by those that cannot comprehend the God of the Bible.
So don't let science intimidate you, and just get a good grasp of the dynamic between philosophy and science. This is what Christians really excel at because Christianity and the word is truth and all else worldviews are false.
 
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Hoghead1

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It is commonly held in contemporary biblical scholarship that there are two different accounts here and I have taken the pains to show you why. Please read more carefully what I post. If you then want to object to what I have said, fine. Let's hear your counterarguments to what I have said. I would encourage you to go through the synopsis I sent you, consider each point, and then respond however you want.
 
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Abraxos

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It is commonly held in contemporary biblical scholarship that there are two different accounts here and I have taken the pains to show you why. Please read more carefully what I post. If you then want to object to what I have said, fine. Let's hear your counterarguments to what I have said. I would encourage you to go through the synopsis I sent you, consider each point, and then respond however you want.

Perhaps you are right in saying there are 2 different writers. Relevancy? Genesis 1 and 2 still don't contradict each-other. Do I really have to repeat what I wrote on why?

Also, you created a strawman by lumping the Creation with the flat earth theory. This is a fallacy in which I do not hold to, and for your information the Bible speaks of the earth as spherical.
 
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Hoghead1

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I don't know why you brought up the flat earth. Since you did, my response is that the Bible very definitely does tech a flat earth. Where on earth did you get the idea that it didn't?
No, you don't have to repeat what you wrote. That wouldn't fill the bill here. What I am asking about is whether or not you read through any of teh synopsis I sent you on the two contradictory accounts. I gather from your response that you haven't.
 
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AllIsrael

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I don't think the meaning of "days" is left all that open, Alllsrael. It's pretty clear that the P source, the author of Gen. 1 had in mind 24-hour days. That is based o n the fact that the events cover a week. The purpose is to overcome polytheism, which often had different gods worshipped on different days. Here, the same God is worshipped on all days.
The interesting thing is that actually Genesis contains two contradictory accounts or chronologies. In Gen. 1, first animals, then man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. Gen, 2 was probably written way earlier than Gen. 1. The biblical editors simply edited these two different accounts together. There were two different creation myths in Judaism and they couldn't decide which one was right, so they put them both in and let the reader pick one. This may seem careless. However, it must be remembered that in the Bible, God's major revelations all occur in history, not nature. The editors had very little interest in addressing questions of nature and so quickly slapped something together here. If you take a look at nature religions, you will find the creation accounts go on and on.

I, too, think that Gen. 1 is in part a response to the pagans who created a god for each of various elements of our universe. In Gen. 1 God declares Himself as the creator of all the elements. But it does seem clear to me, Hoghead, that God’s story of creation is a very historical accounting of Himself, indeed, a major revelation.

Personally, I see no contradiction in chapters 1 and 2. Chapter 1 is a general explanation – v.1 is actually a historical announcement – that God created all the elements mentioned. Chapter 2 recounts the beginning of the relationship He established with the humans He made. Looked at closely, chapter 2 repeats the making of the elements of chapter 1, but much more with His children Adam and Eve in mind. The focus of chapter 1 is God creating everything. The focus of chapter 2 is His relationship with His 2 children and how they are to relate to Him and the creation. I don’t see any chronological contradiction.

As far as yom/day goes, chapter 2:4 uses the singular word ‘day’ – same Hebrew word yom - in reference to all six of the days of chapter 1. So based on the usage in 2:4, the word yom/day in chapter 1 can mean a longer period of time than 24 hours, although a 24-hour period does seem plausible.

I’m not sure about the validity of P as author of Genesis. Didn’t he/she/they live about 800 years after Moses’ time? It seems odd that with all the intelligent Hebrews of great faith like Moses and Joshua, it would take that long for them to finally get something down in writing. I believe there have been archeological evidences that writing had been in use even before Moses’ time. A quick google search will yield many researched sites validating Moses’ as the author of Genesis. Those I looked at say that Moses most likely had both oral tradition and early Hebrew tablet writings as some of his sources. And of course there’s Paul’s declaration that the Genesis passages are all inspired by God and profitable for instruction and correction in order for us to become righteous men/women of God, equipped for good works.

But we are surely in agreement about what is the utter essence of Genesis 1: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and everything on the earth, especially us humans, and in His image He did make us.

PS: Circle – check Job 26:7 God hung the earth [just like he did the sun and moon]; Job 26”10 compass Heb. chuwg = draw a circle, make a circle; Isa. 40:21-22 Circle of the earth.
 
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miamited

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But that was a symbolic term, not literal. Like when he upbraided Peter for suggesting that Jesus take a different coarse of action. "Get ye behind me Satan."

Hi colter,

Maybe. Then again, maybe Jesus wasn't actually talking 'to' Peter, but 'at' Peter. Anyway, my initial response to you was concerning the statement you had written, and you may well have been talking about something that others believe, about Jesus death being a sacrifice to the 'Satan god'.

I notice that you reference the urantia book. I'm not familiar with it, but I'm curious as to what convinces you that it holds truth, if you do. From what I've gathered, it seems to be a writing similar to the BOM. A new and different way to explain God and Jesus and spiritual things. What is it about the writings that cause you to conclude that what it says is the 'truth'?

BTW, getting back to this issue of Satan being a real being misleading mankind and drawing them to himself which would be why Jesus would have called some of the people of Israel 'children of Satan'...

In the Revelation we are told that Satan will be bound for a time. Then he is released again and the purpose of his release, or what it is claimed he will be trying to do once he is released, is to lead the nations astray again. Also, in the letters to the churches there are several references to the people of several of them being in league with Satan.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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James Wilson

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For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness.

I've heard this comment so often, stated as if a fact, and I get tired of hearing it.

Let's compare two documents that attempt to present geophysical evidence: the Bible and the Gilgamesh epic. Naturally, modern theological scholarship, having a bias against the Bible as a reliable source, favors the Gilgamesh epic as the earliest account. In the Gilgamesh epic, the Ark is described as a perfect cube (imagine how that would handle in the storms of the Flood!).

In the Bible, the ratios of length, to width and to height are the same as modern nautical science uses for ship-worthy craft! So, the Bible is not only ahead of all other Flood stories (about 100 nations have creation/flood stories), but it presents insights into modern nautical science long before men arrived at that science. Since the Bible has better nautical science, we should be "open-minded" enough to attribute some credibility to the words of Scripture and God's ability to preserve these truths down to our time.

Hoghead also said the following: I am committed to modern biblical scholarship.

I took a college level course in Higher Criticism, not because I was forced to as an engineer, but because I wanted to know more about the Bible. So you can be assured that I read your short treatise and understand Higher Criticism thoroughly. I spent about 6 years as a proponent of HC.

But your statement in another part that modern scholarship is "open minded" is a laugh. The hidden agenda of this "open minded" scholarship is to demythologize the Bible (question all miracles). This isn't something that was derived from modern scholarship but a starting assumption.

I bought into that HC scholarship until I was plopped down in the middle of a revival on Guam in the Navy. At every worship service 3-4 people were healed. People I knew. Many Western educated, some with college degrees. And for some time I used the demythologize-weapons HC gave me, trying to doubt my eyes.

Finally, I became scientific and began to study the observations before me (that's what scientists do), not putting on the critical-glasses of HC. I became a fundamentalist because the evidence for it was too great to ignore.

The Bible is a love letter from God. To explore its depths, you have to presume that God exists, that He loves us, and that He's writing to us.

HC taught me where all the contradictions were in the Bible. As an honest person and scientist (at this time I had a masters degree in nuclear engineering), I couldn't just dismiss the contradictions, but I wanted to be the miracle-worker that Christ said His followers would be. So each time I read the Bible and encountered the contradictions once more, I'd desperately pray about them, asking for an honest explanation. Which God would give to me, almost always within a month of my prayer.

I'll expand about these contradictions in another posting, for this is getting too long.

But my deeper understanding of the Bible was premised upon it being God's love letter to me. One I sought to understand, not question.
 
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James Wilson

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I'll expand about these contradictions in another posting, for this is getting too long.

Higher Criticism loves to point out the contractions in the Bible. After I prayed the sinner's prayer and became a Christian, two important things happened: I suddenly had a tremendous love for the Bible and a desire to absorb as much of it as possible, and I began revisiting the supposed contradictions in the Bible.

Many of the contradictions have to do with time ordering or chronological order. For instance, in Christ's meeting with the demon possessed man of Gadarenes, the man is put in his right mind and Jesus gets in the boat and goes to the other side of the water. THEN the now-right-minded man of Gadarenes says, "Take me with you." What's this? Jesus is already on the far side of the water! Does the man shout across the water, asking Christ to come back to him?

No, the Jews did not seem to have the same preference for chronological order as we do. Do we always favor chronological order in modern times? When I was trained to be a journalist in the Navy, I was told to put the most important things first, regardless of chronological order, so that the print-shop laborer putting together the paper could cut from the end of the article in order to fit it into the remaining space.

Modern fiction often starts out by introducing the reader to an exciting part of the novel and then telling the rest of the novel chronologically.

The disagreements between Gen. 1 and 2 can be explained by ignoring our modern preference for chronological telling.

I have to drop my grandkid off at school now. I'll continue this later.
 
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James Wilson

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I'll expand about these contradictions in another posting, for this is getting too long.

Part 2 of Contradictions in the Bible:

The Higher Criticism textbook I studied made a big deal about the existence of two reports on how King Saul died. One report said that Saul fell upon his sword, killing himself to avoid capture by the enemy in battle. The other is the report of a survivor who bragged the new King, David, "I killed King Saul for you." The Bible does not say that the messenger was telling the truth. Perhaps David detected the lie told by a man trying to ingratiate his way into the new leader's service. Whether David did perceive the lie or not, he killed that messenger on the spot for touching a king anointed by God.

What is the deeper truth revealed by these two reports? We all know that David honored King Saul as the appointment of God. When David hid in a cave to avoid the king trying to kill him, King Saul unknowingly entered the same cave to relieve himself, without his body guards. David's men rejoiced (in whispers), "God has delivered the king into your hands! Kill him!" David said, "I will not touch the Lord's anointed king." Even in Saul's death David honored the enemy who reigned before him.

I've often wondered why God called David "A man after My own heart". This is the man who slept with another man's wife and had her husband killed in battle by deliberate placement in a position of great danger. Perhaps it was partly David's treatment of his predecessor. We know that Israel of the North, after the kingdom was split in two, was often ruled by rebels and assassins, who were in turn assassinated themselves. They did not honor the spirit of David and it showed. Judah, claiming David as a favorite, had fairly nonviolent transitions in leadership.

The next contradiction I'd like to address was one I noticed as an unbeliever reading the Bible. The disciples came to Jesus and said, "We found a man casting out demons in Your name, but he's not one of us so we forbid him." Jesus said, "He that is not against you is for you." At this time in my life, in my first year of college, tolerance was just becoming the new truth. I thought to myself, "Look how tolerant Jesus was! We should all emulate that!" Just a little further I read where Jesus said to His enemies, "He who is not for Me is against Me!" Then I complained, "Where's Your tolerance now????"

As an unbeliever I came to the Bible hoping it would confirm my prejudices. Whenever the Bible did not support my prejudices, I questioned the Bible, and sometimes God Himself. After becoming a Christian, I again encountered this episode of the intolerance of Christ (a seeming contradiction to me) and pleaded with God for understanding. Soon after that God showed me a wagon wheel with a center hole and spokes going out to the rim. The different Christian churches were on the rim, disagreeing with each other, but all having Christ at the center. Jesus demands that He must be at the center of our religion (He said, "No man comes to the Father but by Me"), but He does not require that all denominations must agree with each other in the minors (the minor truths).
 
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James Wilson

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Part 2 of Contradictions in the Bible:

This is part 3 of Contradictions:

Often I consult with God (that is to say, I try to give Him some advice... for free, of course). "God, You could easily have made Your word easier to understand! Why didn't You?"

Jesus's disciples were a lot like me, suggesting that Jesus make things simpler: "Why do You speak in parables?" Christ replied, "So that the hearing may hear and not understand. The truth is only given to you."

The crowds of people sitting before Jesus could readily be split into two camps. One heard the parables or the hard things that Jesus said, like "You must eat My flesh and drink My blood"). Then they wandered off to seek easier things to do. But a seeking group remained, asking questions and seeking truth.

In truth, the Bible is like the parables of Christ, offering nothing but contradictions and complications to those who have no patience or no genuine desire for truth. But those who seek and dig and persist, find not only truth, but the arms of a Supernatural God hugging them and carrying them in times of crisis.
 
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miamited

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Hi hoghead,

You wrote:
For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness.

I'm just curious. On what factual basis do you make that claim? It has always been my understanding that for centuries solid bible believing Christians believed the Scriptures to be accurate, so I'm wondering what evidence you have that my understanding isn't correct. What I see is that for centuries solid bible believing Christians believed the Scriptures to be inerrant and pretty much true in all that they tell us about all the things that are discussed within its words. But, in the last few centuries we have become a people who question the factual truths of the Scriptures. Our higher learning has brought with it a mindset that causes us now to stop and question everything, where before the Scriptures were just pretty much accepted as truth.

So, again I ask, is there some verifiable proof that offers up your explanation over mine? What's the truth? Of course, there's always the problem of our even being able to know whether or not someone now dead was, in their life, a solid bible believing Christian. Even in Peter's days there were obviously people who read and likely wanted to believe the Scriptures, but Peter says these people who find the Scriptures hard to understand and try to twist what the Scriptures actually say, will be condemned on the day of God's judgment. So, I'd just encourage someone to be very, very careful when trying to explain to others that the Scriptures don't actually mean what they do actually say. I'm sure that there are even more people alive today who fit Peter's description since the Scriptures also seem to clearly indicate that as the days of this realm are extended, true faith, the faith that God honors, becomes less not more.

When we sign on to these new and improved ideas, we need to be careful that we are not exactly those people who are fulfilling the prophecies of faith upon the earth as time goes on.

God bless you
In Christ, Ted
 
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classicalhero

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I do love how some many people re-write history. Up until Charles Darwin every Christian believed Genesis as factual and the scriptural geologists of the time bare that fact since they were in opposition to Lyell, in fact much of Lyell said is no factually incorrect, yet for some reason people rejected the plain understanding of what Genesis says. There is simply no evidence that points to anyone believing anything but what Genesis says.
 
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Colter

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Hi colter,

Maybe. Then again, maybe Jesus wasn't actually talking 'to' Peter, but 'at' Peter. Anyway, my initial response to you was concerning the statement you had written, and you may well have been talking about something that others believe, about Jesus death being a sacrifice to the 'Satan god'.

I notice that you reference the urantia book. I'm not familiar with it, but I'm curious as to what convinces you that it holds truth, if you do. From what I've gathered, it seems to be a writing similar to the BOM. A new and different way to explain God and Jesus and spiritual things. What is it about the writings that cause you to conclude that what it says is the 'truth'?

BTW, getting back to this issue of Satan being a real being misleading mankind and drawing them to himself which would be why Jesus would have called some of the people of Israel 'children of Satan'...

In the Revelation we are told that Satan will be bound for a time. Then he is released again and the purpose of his release, or what it is claimed he will be trying to do once he is released, is to lead the nations astray again. Also, in the letters to the churches there are several references to the people of several of them being in league with Satan.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Hi Ted,

The Urantia Book is a massive work of which I have been a student most of my adult life. I heard about it from my dad who was sort of a closet reader of the UB from the 60's. We attended a fairly moderate Methodist church when I was a kid. At 22 my life changed dramatically after a spiritual awakening. From their I began my search. The Urantia revelation answers a great many questions and explains many of the events and characters referenced in the books used to make the Bible.
 
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ScottA

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If the flood did not produce the fossil record, then what did in context of a young earth view? I have heard it said that God could have created coal when He formed the world. But coal comes from organic remains, pressurized over long periods of time. Also, coal seams contain fossils, such as the imprints of leaves and other organic structures. If God created this, he is essentially making detailed evidence of something alive that never lived. Would God do this?
History, is His story. God has created the world to tell it, and spared no expense. :)

All kidding aside, the manifestation of all things, including time, space, and matter...is simply an elaborate form of media.

If we were to tell a story to [our] children...would we fill in the details with imagery? If Disney or Pixar were to create the illusion of what is real with lights, and sound, and special effects...would any of it be to fool our senses to make it appear as real as possible? Would either be a sin? Why, then, would we think that God would not do the same...only better?
 
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Hoghead1

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AIIIsrael, in my post 445, I presented my synopsis of Genesis. You might want to check that out. I hold with the Higher Criticism and the DH. I believe there are at least four sources for the Pentateuch, plus redactor. The Mosaic authorship of teh Pentateuch went out the window years ago in modern biblical studies.
 
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Hoghead1

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It's far more complicated than that, James Wilson. You might want to take a look at my post 445, where I review the situation with Genesis. You also might want to take a look at who killed Goliath. David? Elhanan? 2 Sam. 21:19 says that Elhanan did. So who did kill Goliath? And please don't give me the nonsensical two-Goliath theory or Elhanan-is-another-name-for-David here.
 
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