LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?

[Jane_Doe]

Jane Doe, I have a simple little question for you:
Why do you refuse to respond to my posts. Is it because that you regard me an apostate?

I'm here trying to have a respectful, charitable conversation, where participants LISTEN to each other. Honestly, if someone is here simply to listen to themselves and not each other... frankly I have better things to do in my life than have my comments ignored and/or used as rock-throwing-practice.

None of this has anything to do with a person's faith (past or present). Rather, it has everything to do with Christ-like conduct.

 

[Ironhold]

How can you be sure the person wants to be baptized if they are dead? /QUOTE]

Vicarious baptism is an offer placed on the table, not a mandatory obligation. The person can accept or reject it as they see fit.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I just realized I missed some of TBL questions. Fixing that now--

How can you be sure the person wants to be baptized if they are dead? Isn't to be baptized a choice that the beleiver does to declare their faith in God or is it something else?

We just do the baptism. The spirit gets to decide whether or not they want to accept it and faith in God.

The second thing is if the dead are baptized without their consent, because they are obviously dead, why does not the Mormon church do a baptism for every dead person and not just their own relatives or people they know? If they have that authority, why do they limit it?

A person's responsibility is first to their family, so that's where each person focuses first. But all the the baptisms will get done in time.

Also, in particular, why did the Mormons baptize Hitler after He died? Do they not care about the millions of Jews He killed?

God is the Judge, not us.

What makes Hitler more special than my grandmother?

Your grandmother can be baptized vicariously too, assuming that she's dead and the nearest living relative gives consent. If she's living, she's welcome to be baptized for herself, normal style.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Do you have a good ad-block program?

If so, then I'll link you to an essay I did.

You know CF.com has a member blogs feature, and there is also Blogger/blogspot.com, both of which you can use to post essays without subjecting people to the kind of nighmare ads one associates with the dark corners of the webi (Angelfire, lol).

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Tell everyone what -

I'll just copy & paste it from where it's hosted.

**

A core tenant of LDS doctrine is that the early Christian church fell into apostasy after the deaths of Jesus and the apostles. Is this a foolish notion? No, not by any means. In fact, the Bible itself warns of such an event taking place.

Amos 8:11-12
11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Is Amos’ warning exclusive to the Old Testament? It is not. Jesus himself foretold of an apostasy taking place.

Matthew 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Was Jesus simply being overly cautious? Not one bit.

John 6:66-67
66 ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Even in Jesus’ day there were those who chose to walk away from Jesus’ words.
But what of the church after Jesus died? Surely the apostles were able to curb the falsehoods, right? Wrong.

Acts 20:29-30
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2 Timothy 4:1-5
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Why was Paul so nervous about apostasy? The answer is simple. By the time Paul and the other NT authors left this realm, the apostasy was a reality.

2 Timothy 1:15
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Galatians 1:6-7
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Revelation 2:1-4
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

1 John 2:18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Titus 1:10-16
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

These are but some of the verses which make it painfully obvious that the early Christian church was already falling apart even while the apostles still resided on the planet.
But how could this happen? As Jesus himself stated, the Second Coming will be preceeded by an apostasy. Paul echoes this statement.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Yet the world was not to be left in turmoil forever. The gospel was to be restored to make way for Jesus to come again.

Revelations 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Joseph Smith History 1:30-34
30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.
31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite awhiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.
33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

If those gold plates were extant your faith would be much easier to accept frankly.

 

[Ironhold]

You know CF.com has a member blogs feature, and there is also Blogger/blogspot.com, both of which you can use to post essays without subjecting people to the kind of nighmare ads one associates with the dark corners of the webi (Angelfire, lol).

Right now most of my stuff is hosted on Deviant Art.

Even though it's mostly associated with some rather unsavory content, the truth of the matter is that various religious groups are using it as a social networking site to share religious-themed artwork and essays.

 

[fatboys]

Actually, that's not quite true. Apostates from the LDS church qualify, despite their ongoing faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. It's belief in the LDS they choose to reject, not God. You know that. So that doesn't make them apostates, which means someone who rejects belief in God. Your own founder, Joseph Smith, clearly stated that no murderer would enter heaven. Can you prove me wrong about anything I mentioned? These beliefs are common knowledge in and outside the LDS. Both are counted as the sons of perdition, along with Satan and his demons. True, other LDS presidents (Kimball for one) have since slightly modified what Joseph Smith once claimed, to now allow murderers, under very specific conditions, into the terrestrial or lower heaven in mormonism. I can give you the references from your own church's website for them if you like. Just can't do it right now. Have to go do some mom things shortly. Can't believe I've been on here for so long! Really eats up valuable time! Hopefully I will be able to check back tomorrow or Wed. for your reply.

And considering that I'm the one who wrote the information, I would be the one who would respond, correct?

To blaspheme against the Holy Ghost one must have their "calling election made sure. " or in other words as iron hold has stated a person would have to have had a spiritual confirmation by actually being in the presence of the savior through the power of the Holy Ghost. And thus having a perfect knowledge of Christ. Then the person has to deny this truth. This would qualify someone to outer darkness. There are very few who have lived on this earth who would fall into this category. Members of the church who leave do not have the spiritual maturity to be considered anything but ex members.

 

[fatboys]

If those gold plates were extant your faith would be much easier to accept frankly.

Why

 

[Jutta2]

My question is about the baptism of the dead also.
How can you be sure the person wants to be baptized if they are dead? Isn't to be baptized a choice that the beleiver does to declare their faith in God or is it something else?

Mormons believe that those who never had on earth the opportunity to get to know the (Mormon) gospel, get in the spirit world to chance. And they can choose there. Since, according to LDS faith is baptism for salvation and exaltation of man is fundamental, relatives of these people to carry out this vicarious baptism in LDS temples. As bibliche Justification call Mormons to 1 Corinthians (15:29), complying with neither the context nor the original Greek word meaning.

The second thing is if the dead are baptized without their consent, because they are obviously dead, why does not the Mormon church do a baptism for every dead person and not just their own relatives or people they know? If they have that authority, why do they limit it?

Mormons believe in their apparent salvation delusion, that they should save all men. And so weren perpetrators (Hitler, Stalin, for example) in addition to their victims (Anne Frank) baptized. The Jewish World Congress has the Mormons banned the dead baptisms of Jews, but as I know (from the temple in Freiberg, Saxony), this is still practiced today.

Also, in particular, why did the Mormons baptize Hitler after He died? Do they not care about the millions of Jews He killed? What makes Hitler more special than my grandmother?

Mormons claim that family members of Hitler have done this. But this is nonsense, because the baptism for the dead of Hitler has been demonstrated in several temples. Details see here:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5962336/the-time-mormons-baptized-adolf-hitler-and-vlad-the-impaler

http://www.mormonismus-online.de/index.php?inc=tempel-mainframe.htm#hitler

http://nowscape.com/mormon/hitler_temple_records.htm

 

[Jutta2]

To blaspheme against the Holy Ghost one must have their "calling election made sure. " or in other words as iron hold has stated a person would have to have had a spiritual confirmation by actually being in the presence of the savior through the power of the Holy Ghost. And thus having a perfect knowledge of Christ. Then the person has to deny this truth. This would qualify someone to outer darkness. There are very few who have lived on this earth who would fall into this category. Members of the church who leave do not have the spiritual maturity to be considered anything but ex members.

If it is true what you say, why was my uncle who is now my aunt, excommunicated from the Church because of this reason? Why no one was allowed to talk to her? Why she got the bishop banned when she dressed as a woman (the German transsexual law requires it), the LDS Church wanted to visit? And why should she have no contact with their children? The did not want her wife who wanted the bishop!

 

[Jutta2]

Tickingclocker, why won't you let a Mormon says what a Mormon believes?

My experiences with the church and its members, as a Mormon and ex-Mormon woman is; have that Mormon difficulties with criticism of their faith. They displace, conceal, often deceive themselves and others, just to be in the right.
This begins with their leaders Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, who denied their Participations in crime. This continues with the decades of denial of the LDS involvement in the infamous Mountain Meadows massacre, or the suicides of homosexuals. And it continues today by molesters are still covered by the church leaders and the victims blamed for it. Here is an interesting article about this:

 

[Jutta2]

Your wrong. The only ones that qualify for outer darkness are those who blasphem against the Holy Ghost.

Nope, he is right! Because my former Bishop told it to me, after I told him, that I want to leave the LDS Cult.

 

[Jutta2]

Your answer is also incorrect. Read my post number 177 to see actual Mormon beliefs.

For Mormons, like other religions, there is often a difference between what is taught and how it is practiced. For example, Mormons shall not discriminate homosexuals, but in practice they do it anyway.

 

[Jutta2]

Might want to go look things up again.

The government was in the process of removing all civil rights from Mormons, and individuals within the government were pushing for us to lose all of our human rights as well.

That's right: the government was looking to feed us to the lions.

Nope! The US government wanted that the renegade Mormons no longer put outside the law (polygamy was forbidden, and the LDS Church was the sole ruler in the Territory of Deseret. The government wanted that Mormons respected the laws of the United States, something they then did not.

 

[Jutta2]

ever figure that maybe some of us are busy IRL?

What does IRL mean?

 

[Jutta2]

I'm here trying to have a respectful, charitable conversation, where participants LISTEN to each other. Honestly, if someone is here simply to listen to themselves and not each other... frankly I have better things to do in my life than have my comments ignored and/or used as rock-throwing-practice.

None of this has anything to do with a person's faith (past or present). Rather, it has everything to do with Christ-like conduct.

In other words:

Because I know things about your Cult, well informed than former Mormon am, someone you see as "apostates," You do not answer my questions and comments. Typical behavior in a sect or a cult!

 

[Jutta2]

If those gold plates were extant your faith would be much easier to accept frankly.

These gold plates would be an indication; that at the assertion of Smith, some truth could be tuned. Not more!

 

[TravelerFarAwayFromHome]

Part 5 of Explaining Mormon view of Salvation--- The Final Judgment and Glory for Non-Mormons.

God is infinitely just and fair. It would be unfair of God to sentence someone to Hell simply because they never had the opportunity to hear about Christ in this life.

Mormons believe that people who never accepted Christ in this life will have the opportunity to hear about Him after death, but before the Final Judgment (obviously they are spirits during this time). They will have the opportunity to learn, and to accept or reject Him.

Hypothetically, what if this person rejects Christ? They go the third degree of glory I described in post #177.

Hypothetically, what if this person accepts Christ? Fantastic! They have the opportunity to have Christ stand as their advocate on Judgment day, their sins to be washed away, and all the wondrous things that come from being a disciple of Christ. There is one issue though: Christ commanded all men to be baptized, and you cannot baptize a spirit. Is this person just “out of luck”? No, that’s where baptism for the dead comes in.

Baptisms for the dead: you cannot baptize a spirit, these people’s baptisms are performed via proxy, meaning a living person may be baptized in behalf of a deceased person. The spirit of the deceased person may decide whether or not they wish to accept this. If the spirit does not want it, then it does nothing.

***
Addressing a few common myths about Mormon baptisms for the dead—
1) No, there is no grave digging up or anything gross like that.
2) No, it is not believe that this “makes the person Mormon” by any stretch of the imagination.
3) No, baptisms for the dead are not added to Mormon church rolls.

***
Addressing the “but that’s so rude and presumptuous of you to do that” strain of thought—

Let’s take the hypothetical situation and say that Mormons beliefs are correct (just humor me for a minute here)—these proxy baptisms are a great act of charity and love for the person they are done for, enabling their souls to dwell with highest degree of glory for eternity.

Let’s take the hypothetical situation and say that Mormons beliefs are totally bogus— these rituals do absolutely nothing, and no matter how well meaning, they are a complete waste of time. Hey, at least it keeps Mormons to busy to knock on your door .

***
Links about baptisms for the dead, including references--
Super short and basic: https://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/baptism/question/baptism-for-the-dead
Longer with references: https://www.lds.org/topics/baptisms-for-the-dead?lang=eng

***
Now, onto talking about non-Mormon Christians—

You’ve accepted Christ as your savior and do your best to walk in His ways? That’s absolutely great! Just off that alone, you’re likely to be at least in the second degree of glory I listed earlier (post #177). You get to live on for eternity, hanging out with Christ, single, and blissfully happy.

Is there a chance of such a person being able reach the first degree of glory listed (post 177)? Yes, everyone gets the chance. These people will also have the opportunity to hear Christ’s Full Gospel (which Mormons believe we have) , and add that truth to the truth they already have. They too will also have the opportunity to accept a proxy baptism done on their behalf, and to dwell with all of God in the highest glory.

**
Ok, I think that tentatively covers things. Any questions?

thanks

so the spiritual death you talked about earlier

that only applies to those who are casted out into the darkness?

since you mentioned in level 2 and level 3 you still get to hang around Jesus?

 

[TravelerFarAwayFromHome]

I also have another question

how does marriage come into the whole equation of eternal salvation

I read in one of the articles about Romneys, if I remember correctly, it seem to suggest Mormons need to be married in order to be in level 1 afterlife?

does Mormon believes in marriage in afterlife?

in your answers, you said on level 1, you allowed to bring family, and on level 2 and 3, you can be single and happy

so does that mean one is allowed to continue enjoy the relationships of being married in L 1 but not L 2 and L 3?

also does divorce and remarriage impacts on one's ability to get into level 1 as well?

 

[civilwarbuff]

If those gold plates were extant your faith would be much easier to accept frankly.

I thought they were, just never avilable because someone else was always studying them....