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Hurrah for Wheaton's faculty!

bhsmte

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Most disturbing part about this whole thing, is she is the only african american on the faculty and their faculty is not small.

In regards to the statement of faith, that is a matter of interpretation and private institutions are given leeway, to define what their statements of faith mean.

A college this size, with only one african american on the faculty (and now none), tells you something.
 
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smaneck

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Do you/Baha'i not make a difference between inspired Scripture and books that can lead you to godliness?

Sure, but I would never say that we "oppose" those texts and eventually the church did except them as scriputre.

Relevance? We were discussing sects vs denominations. Right on cue yu mention heresies.

LOL. I mentioned heresy because the first canon was compiled by a heretic. It is only afterwards that the Apostolic Church decides it needs to come up with its own.

Heresies have come about from outside Scripture.

Christianity had plenty of heresies before they had a scripture.
Mohammad's heresies are from thought outside Scripture,

Wrong. The Qur'an is scripture.
 
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smaneck

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Gotcha should say quotes that claim to be Scripture.


Paul didn't write 1 Timonthy. It is a second century work.

So now hadith is considered Scripture? Eyewitnesses to the word
s/revelations Mohammad received.

No, I just said it contains some eyewitness accounts Muhammad receiving revelations.
We don't actually have that in the NT.
 
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smaneck

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In regards to the statement of faith, that is a matter of interpretation and private institutions are given leeway, to define what their statements of faith mean.

When your entire faculty says that her beliefs do not violate the statement of faith, you don't have much of a leg to stand on, unless you want to fire the entire faculty.

A college this size, with only one african american on the faculty (and now none), tells you something.

Especially when you have a record of scrutinizing that one faculty members views on race and gender.
 
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bhsmte

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When your entire faculty says that her beliefs do not violate the statement of faith, you don't have much of a leg to stand on, unless you want to fire the entire



Especially when you have a record of scrutinizing that one faculty members views on race and gender.

Like i stated before. I know wheaton college well. I used to live close by and have known students and professors from wheaton.

They are far, far right and that sums it up best.
 
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Chesterton

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Like i stated before. I know wheaton college well. I used to live close by and have known students and professors from wheaton.

They are far, far right and that sums it up best.
A rightist college? How did that slip through the cracks? That makes like 3 or 4 of them. We gotta clamp down or next thing you know people will start thinking they're free to hold any beliefs they want. We need some muscle over there.
 
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smaneck

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Like i stated before. I know wheaton college well. I used to live close by and have known students and professors from wheaton.

They are far, far right and that sums it up best.

I once, rather accidentally presented a paper at the Conference on Faith and History which consisted mostly of history professors at evangelical colleges. One thing I found out is that the faculty are not nearly as conservative as either the students or the administration. Wheaton faculty was there too and until they found out I wasn't a Christian they were interested in recruiting me. They ended up publishing my article "The Presbyterian and the Parsis" in their journal Fides et Historia. It was one of my very first publications.
 
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simplegifts

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Except you don't know what the early church fathers said. What you posted was cut and pasted from someone's website.
If I posted everything I have read on the matter, there would be complaints that I was posting too much. We will have to agree to disagree. The beauty of living in a democracy!!!
 
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simplegifts

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I apologize for not citing the link. http://www.bible-researcher.com/athanasius.html I like this site because it includes the original Greek. Please note I mention my emphasis = the work not mine.

This list should get you started.
http://www.academia.edu/2627596/_Th...pha_in_Jeromes_Canonical_Theory_JECS_20_2012_
http://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/apion-1.htm
http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Quotations-NT-OT.htm

Then there is this list of readings. Clicking on the footnote number will get you to the souirce of nformation.
http://www.askelm.com/restoring/res003.htm
1) Melito (170 C.E.), in agreement with the original Jewish reckoning, gave the number of Old Testament books as 22. 7

2) Origen (210 C.E.) also gave the same numbering: “It should be stated that the canonical books, as the Hebrews have handed them down, are twenty-two; corresponding with the number of their letters.” 8

3) Hilary of Poitiers (360 C.E.): “The Law of the Old Testament is considered as divided into twenty-two books, so as to correspond to the number of letters.” 9

4) Athanasius (365 C.E.): “There are then of the Old Testament twenty-two books in number ... this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews.” 10

5) The Council of Laodicea (343–391 C.E.): Twenty-two books. 11

6) Cyril of Jerusalem (386 C.E.): “Read the divine scriptures, the twenty-two books of the Old Testament.” 12

7) Gregory of Nazianzus (390 C.E.): “I have exhibited twenty-two books, corresponding with the twenty-two letters of the Hebrews.” 13

8) Epiphanius (400 C.E.): Twenty-two books. 14

9) Rufinus (410 C.E.): Twenty-two books. 15

10) Jerome (410 C.E.): “That the Hebrews have twenty-two letters is testified ... as there are twenty-two elementary characters by means of which we write in Hebrew all we say ... so we reckon twenty-two books by which ... a righteous man is instructed.” 16

11) Synopsis of Sacred Scripture (c. 500 C.E.): “The canonical books of the Old Testament are twenty-two, equal in number to the Hebrew letters; for they have so many original letters.” 17

12) Isidore of Seville (600 C.E.) said the Old Testament was settled by Ezra the priest into twenty-two books “that the books in the Law might correspond in number with the letters.” 18

13) Leontius (610 C.E.): “Of the Old Testament there are twenty-two books.” 19

14) John of Damascus (730 C.E.): “Observe further that there are two and twenty books of the Old Testament, one for each letter of the Hebrew alphabet.” 20

15) Nicephorus (9th century C.E.): “There are two and twenty books of the Old Testament.” 21

16) Jesudad, Bishop of Hadad, Syria (852 C.E.) recognized a canon of twenty-two books. 22

17) Hrabanus (9th century C.E.) said the Old Testament was formed by Ezra into twenty-two books “that there might be as many books in the Law as there are letters.” 23

18) Moses of Chorene the Armenian historian (c. 1000 C.E. or perhaps as early as the 6th century) “speaks of twenty-two books of the Old Testament. This was clearly the Jewish Canon.” 24

19) Peter of Cluny (1150 C.E.): Twenty-two books. 25

20) John of Salisbury (1180 C.E.): Twenty-two books. 26

21) Hugh of St. Victor (12th century): “As there are twenty-two alphabetic letters, by means of which we write in Hebrew, and speak what we have to say, so twenty-two books are reckoned, by means of which ... the yet tender infancy of our man is instructed, while it yet hath need of milk.” 27

22) Richard of St. Victor (13th century): Twenty-two books. 28

http://www.usccb.org/bible/judith/0
Whatever the reasons, the rabbis did not count Judith among their scriptures, and the Reformation adopted that position. The early Church, however, held this book in high honor. The first-century Pope, St. Clement of Rome, proposes Judith as an example of courageous love (1 Corinthians 55). St. Jerome holds her up as an example of a holy widow and a type of the Church (To Salvina: Letter 79, par. 10; see also To Furia: Letter 54, par. 16) and, in another place, describes Mary as a new Judith (To Eustochium: Letter 22, par. 21). The Council of Trent (1546) included Judith in the canon; thus it is one of the seven deuterocanonical books.

Note the high honor, but Scripture? Useful in teaching? Yes, but Scripture? The Reformation made a distinction and I believe the Catholic Church did too, by listing them as second canon.

Really the question becomes Why would these lists carry any weight for the Christian? Why follow a list set out by man?
 
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smaneck

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I apologize for not citing the link. http://www.bible-researcher.com/athanasius.html I like this site because it includes the original Greek. Please note I mention my emphasis = the work not mine.

That's not where you got your information from. The statements you plagiarized are found on the CARM website, the Blue Letter Bible website and the In Plain Sight website. Not all those other ones you list here. But good job deflecting.

This list should get you started.

Thanks but I wasn't asking for references. I'm perfectly capable of googling that kind of material for myself. What I was complaining about is your plagiarizing a website and not putting quotation marks around what you cut and pasted and providing a link to it. That is plagiarism and would earn you an "F" in my class. It is considered dishonest.

Note the high honor, but Scripture? Useful in teaching? Yes, but Scripture? The Reformation made a distinction and I believe the Catholic Church did too, by listing them as second canon.

Wrong. The only reason the Catholic Church calls these books Deuterocanonical is because their status in the canon was decided later than the other texts. They definitely see them as scripture.

Really the question becomes Why would these lists carry any weight for the Christian? Why follow a list set out by man?

The Catholic position is that the list is not set out by 'man' it is set out by the Church which is said to be guided by the Holy Spirit just as the authors of those books were supposedly led by the Holy Spirit. As St. Augustine stated:, "I would not have believed the Gospel had not the authority of the Church moved me."
Protestants insist on 'sola scriptura' while Catholics insist who determines what is scripture, if not the Church?
Also, Catholics don't believe something has to be propositionally inerrant to be scripture. Saves them a lot of grief from having to cleave to indefensible positions based on a literal reading of the text.
 
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simplegifts

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Hmm ... calling me a liar? Did you even read the links? Here is the entire page - the parts emphasized is what I posted.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/athanasius.ht
ml
Athanasius on the Canon
Athanasius of Alexandria
(A.D. 296-373) was the most prominent theologian of the fourth century, and he served as bishop of Alexandria. His list of canonical books was published as part of his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle of A.D. 367. After the list he declares, “these are the wells of salvation, so that he who thirsts may be satisfied with the sayings in these. Let no one add to these. Let nothing be taken away.”

From his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle, A.D. 367.
The Greek text here is according to Johannes Kirchhofer, Quellensammlung zur Geschichte des Neutestamentlichen Kanons bis auf Hieronymus (Zürich: Meyer and Zeller, 1844), pp. 7-9. The English translation is based upon the version published in A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Second Series, vol. 4 (New York: 1892), pp. 550-5, slightly revised.

Περὶ τῶν θείων γραφῶν. Concerning the Divine Scriptures
Ἀλλ' ἐπειδὴ περὶ μὲν τῶν αἱρετικῶν ἐμνήσθημεν, ὡς νεκρῶν· περὶ δὲ ἡμῶν ὡς ἐχόντων πρὸς σωτηρίαν τὰς θείας γραφάς· καὶ φοβοῦμαι μήπως, ὡς ἔγραψεν Κορινθίοις Παῦλος, ὀλίγοι τῶν ἀκεραίων ἀπὸ τῆς ἁπλότητος καὶ τῆς ἁγιότητος πλανηθῶσιν, ἀπὸ τῆς πανουργίας τινῶν ἀνθρώπων, καὶ λοιπὸν ἐντυγχάνειν ἑτέρους ἄρξωνται, τοῖς λεγομένοις ἀποκρύφοις, ἀπατώμενοι τῇ ὁμωνυμίᾳ τῶν ἀληθῶν βιβλίων· παρακαλῶ ἀνέχεσθαι εἰ περὶ ὧν ἐπίστασθε, περὶ τούτων κἀγὼ μνημονεύων γράφω, διάτε τὴν ἀνάγκην καὶ τὸ χρήσιμον τῆς ἐκκλησίας.
2. But since we have made mention of heretics as dead, but of ourselves as possessing the Divine Scriptures for salvation; and since I fear lest, as Paul wrote to the Corinthians, some few of the simple should be beguiled from their simplicity and purity, by the subtilty of certain men, and should henceforth read other books—those called apocryphal—led astray by the similarity of their names with the true books; I beseech you to bear patiently, if I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church.

Μέλλων δὲ τούτων μνημονεύειν, χρήσομαι πρὸς σύστασιν τῆς ἐμαυτοῦ τόλμης τῷ τύπῳ τοῦ εὐαγγελιστοῦ Λουκᾶ· λέγων καὶ αὐτός· Ἐπειδή περιτινες ἐπεχείρησαν ἀνατάξασθαι ἑαυτοῖς τὰ λεγόμενα ἀπόκρυφα, καὶ ἐπιμῖξαι ταῦτα τῇ θεοπνεύστῳ γραφῇ, περὶ ἧς ἐπληφορήθημεν, καθὼς παρέδοσαν τοῖς πατράσιν οἱ ἀπ' ἀρχῆς αὐτόπται καὶ ὑπηρέται γενόμενοι τοῦ λόγου· ἔδοξεν κἀμοί προτραπέντι παρὰ γνησίων ἀδελφῶν, καὶ μαθόντι ἄνωθεν ἑξῆς ἐκθέσθαι τὰ κανονιζόμενα καὶ παραδοθέντα πιστευθέντα τε θεῖα εἶναι βιβλία· ἵνα ἕκαστος· εἰ μὲν ἠπατήθη, καταγνῷ τῶν πλανησάντων· ὁ δὲ καθαρὸς διαμείνας, χαίρῃ πάλιν ὑπομιμνησκόμενος.
3. In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the evangelist, saying on my own account, Forasmuch as some have taken in hand to reduce into order for themselves the books termed Apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the Fathers; it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as divine; to the end that anyone who has fallen into error may condemn those who have led them astray; and that he who has continued steadfast in purity may again rejoice, having these things brought to his remembrance.

Ἔτι τοίνυν τῆς μὲν παλαιᾶς διαθήκης βιβλία τῷ ἀριθμῷ τὰ πάντα εἰκοσιδύο· τοσαῦτα γάρ, ὡς ἤκουσα, καὶ τὰ στοιχεῖα τὰ παρ' Ἑβραίοις εἶναι παραδέδονται. τῇ δὲ τάξει καὶ τῷ ὀνόματι ἔστιν ἕκαστον οὕτως· πρῶτον Γένεσις, εἶτα Ἔξοδος, εἶτα Λευιτικόν, καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο Ἀριθμοί, καὶ λοιπόν τὸ ∆ευτερονόμιον· ἑξῆς δὲ τούτοις ἐστὶν Ἰησοῦ ὁ τοῦ Ναυῆ, καὶ Κριταί. καὶ μετὰ τοῦτο ἡ Ρούθ. καὶ πάλιν ἑξῆς Βασιλειῶν τέσσαρα βιβλία· καὶ τούτων τὸ μὲν πρῶτον καὶ δεύτερον εἰς ἓν βιβλίον ἀριθμεῖται· τὸ δὲ τρίτον καὶ τέταρτον ὁμοίως εἰς ἕν· μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα Παραλειπόμενα α καὶ β, ὁμοίως εἰς ἓν βιβλίον ἀριθμούμενα, εἶτα Ἔσδρας α καὶ β ὁμοίως εἰς ἕν, μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα βίβλος Ψαλμῶν, καὶ ἑξῆς Παροιμίαι. εἶτα Ἐκκλησιαστής, καὶ Ἆσμα ᾀσμάτων. πρὸς τούτοις ἔστι καὶ Ἰώβ, καὶ λοιπόν Προφῆται· οἱ μὲν δώδεκα εἰς ἓν βιβλίον ἀριθμούμενοι. εἶτα Ἡσαΐας, Ἱερεμίας, καὶ σὺν αὐτῷ Βαρούχ, Θρῆνοι καὶ ἐπιστολή, καὶ μετ' αὐτὸν Ἐζεκιὴλ καὶ ∆ανιήλ. ἄχρι τούτων τὰ τῆς παλαιᾶς διαθήκης ἵσταται.
4. There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second 1 being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth 2 as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second 3 are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the Twelve [minor prophets] being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations and the Epistle, one book; afterwards Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.

Τὰ δὲ τῆς καινῆς πάλιν οὐκ ὀκνητέον εἰπεῖν· ἔστι γὰρ ταῦτα. εὐαγγέλια τέσσαρα· κατὰ Ματθαῖον, κατὰ Μάρκον, κατὰ Λουκᾶν, κατὰ Ἰωάννην. εἶτα μετὰ ταῦτα Πράξεις ἀποστόλων, καὶ ἐπιστολαὶ καθολικαὶ καλούμεναι τῶν ἀποστόλων ἑπτά· οὕτως μὲν α. [Ἰακώβου] Πέτρου δὲ β. εἶτα Ἰωάννου γ. καὶ μετὰ ταύτας Ἰούδα α. πρὸς τούτοις Παύλου ἀποστόλου εἰσὶν ἐπιστολαὶ δεκατέσσαρες, τῇ τάξει γραφόμεναι οὕτως· πρώτη πρὸς Ρωμαίους· εἶτα πρὸς Κορινθίους δύο. καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα πρὸς Γαλάτας. καὶ ἑξῆς πρὸς Ἐφεσίους. εἶτα πρὸς Φιλιππησίους καὶ πρὸς Κολοσσαεῖς. καὶ μετὰ ταῦτας πρὸς Θεσσαλονικεῖς δύο· καὶ ἡ πρὸς Ἑβραίους· καὶ εὐθὺς πρὸς μὲν Τιμόθεον δύο· πρὸς δὲ Τίτον μία. καὶ τελευταία ἡ πρὸς Φιλήμονα. καὶ πάλιν Ἰωάννου Ἀποκάλυψις.
5. Again, it is not tedious to speak of the books of the New Testament. These are: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. After these, The Acts of the Apostles, and the seven epistles called Catholic: of James, one; of Peter, two, of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, written in this order: the first, to the Romans; then, two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians, then, to the Philippians; then, to the Colossians; after these, two of the Thessalonians; and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John.

Ταῦτα πηγαὶ τοῦ σωτηρίου, ὥστε τὸν διψῶντα ἐμφορεῖσθαι τῶν ἐν τούτοις λογίων· ἐν τούτοις μόνοις τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας διδασκαλεῖον εὐαγγελίζεται. μηδεὶς τούτοις ἐπιβαλλέτω, μη δὲ τούτων ἀφαιρείσθω τι. περὶ δὲ τούτων ὁ κύριος Σαδδουκαίους μὲν ἐδυσώπει, λέγων· πλανᾶσθε μὴ εἰδότες τὰς γραφὰς. τοῖς δὲ Ἰουδαίοις παρῄνει· ερευνᾶτε τὰς γραφάς· ὅτι αὐταί εἰσι αἱ μαρτυροῦσαι περὶ ἐμοῦ.
6. These are the fountains of salvation, that he who thirsts may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone the teaching of godliness is proclaimed. Let no one add to these; let nothing be taken away from them. For concerning these the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures. And he reproved the Jews, saying, Search the Scriptures, for these are they that testify of me.

Ἀλλ' ἕνεκά γε πλείονος ἀκριβείας προστίθημι καὶ τοῦτο γράφων ἀναγκαίως· ὡς ὅτι ἔστιν καὶ ἕτερα βιβλία τούτων ἔξωθεν· οὐ κανονιζόμενα μέν τετυπωμένα δὲ παρὰ τῶν πατέρων ἀναγινώσκεσθαι τοῖς ἄρτι προσερχομένοις καὶ βουλομένοις κατηχεῖσθαι τὸν τῆς εὐσεβείας λόγον· Σοφία Σολομῶντος, καὶ Σοφία Σιρὰχ, καὶ Ἑσθὴρ, καὶ Ἰουδὶθ, καὶ Τωβίας, καὶ ∆ιδαχὴ καλουμένη τῶν ἀποστόλων, καὶ ὁ Ποιμήν. Καὶ ὅμως ἀγαπητοί, κἀκείνων κανονιζομένων καὶ τούτων ἀναγινωσκομένων οὐδαμοῦ τῶν ἀποκρύφων μνήμη· ἀλλὰ αἱρετικῶν ἐστιν ἐπίνοια, γραφόντων μὲν ὅτε θέλουσιν αὐτά· χαριζομένων δὲ καὶ προστιθέντων αὐτοῖς χρόνους· ἵνα ὡς παλαιὰ προφέροντες, πρόφασιν ἔχωσιν ἀπατᾶν ἐκ τούτου τοὺς ἀκεραίους.
7. But for the sake of greater exactness I add this also, writing under obligation, as it were. There are other books besides these, indeed not received as canonical but having been appointed by our fathers to be read to those just approaching and wishing to be instructed in the word of godliness: Wisdom of Solomon, Wisdom of Sirach, Esther, Judith, Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being merely read; nor is there any place a mention of secret writings. But such are the invention of heretics, who indeed write them whenever they wish, bestowing upon them their approval, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as if they were ancient writings, they find a means by which to lead astray the simple-minded.
 
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simplegifts

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That was your first attack against me. Then after I apologized for not posting the link and posted the link to the site where I obtained the information you said that is not where I found the information.

You said "That's not where you got your information from. The statements you plagiarized are found on the CARM website, the Blue Letter Bible website and the In Plain Sight website. Not all those other ones you list here. But good job deflecting."

That is calling me a liar.

That list was an answer for earlier comment saying that you said about me "What you did was plagiarize a website, so I seriously doubt you knew anything else about it."

I guess you missed the point from Catholic website no less about the early church fathers and the Jewish thought on what non-Catholic Christians consider Old Testament Apocrypha- Whatever the reasons, the rabbis did not count Judith among their scriptures, and the Reformation adopted that position. The early Church, however, held this book in high honor.

You didn't cite your source for that quote and notice he is speaking of the GOSPEL here not the Old Testament books in question. - St. Augustine stated:, "I would not have believed the Gospel had not the authority of the Church moved me." The Church made up of ..... the early church fathers. How does anyone think those earliest church fathers came to conclusions about the specific books? The same way non-Catholic Christians can do so today. St. Augustine did't come around until after many Books were considered Scripture. This statement of St Augustine is in dispute of Manichaeism and a writing coming from around 216-276, way too late to be considered an eyewitness or a student of an eyewitness.
 
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smaneck

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I guess you missed the point from Catholic website no less about the early church fathers and the Jewish thought on what non-Catholic Christians consider Old Testament Apocrypha- Whatever the reasons, the rabbis did not count Judith among their scriptures, and the Reformation adopted that position. The early Church, however, held this book in high honor.

You didn't cite your source for that quote

LOL. That was a quote you posted, not me.

You said "That's not where you got your information from. The statements you plagiarized are found on the CARM website, the Blue Letter Bible website and the In Plain Sight website. Not all those other ones you list here. But good job deflecting."

That is calling me a liar.

That's your interpretation. Statements you made in your earliest post on the Apocrypha are found on those websites, not the ones you threw up later on.
 
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LoAmmi

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Whatever the reasons, the rabbis did not count Judith among their scriptures, and the Reformation adopted that position. The early Church, however, held this book in high honor.

More than likely because it wasn't believed to have been written in Hebrew but rather in Greek which was a reason to exclude a work in Judaism.
 
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