Ten Commandments still valid so says Bible and pro-Sunday Scholars

[ToBeLoved]

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Paul is not saying
1. The whole world USED to be accountable to God - now it is not.
2. It USED to be the case that by the works of the LAW no man would be justified.
3. The LAW USED to define what sin is.
4. The Law USED to speak to those who USED to be under the LAW.

Rather Paul says these are all the work that the LAW did AND STILL DOES.

No. That's not true.

Although you say (above) that you list out to verse 21, it is missing.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Notice, APART FROM THE LAW, the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD through FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST for ALL who BELIEVE

 

[BobRyan]

I'm saying you can't logically cite the New Testament as evidence in this case while not allowing it when Sunday worship people cite the several passages in the New Testament which justify Sunday worship.

Actually I would never argue against a NT text saying "week day 1 is now the Sabbath" or "the 4th commandment is now changed to apply to week day 1 instead of the 7th day" or "week day 1 is the LORD's Day and the new Sabbath". OR "remember to keep holy week day 1 - six days shall you labor and do you all your work but the first day is the Sabbath of the Lord Thy God".

Or "we no longer observe the 7th day as the Sabbath - rather we gather for worship every week day 1 as our keeping Sabbath in the New Testament".

Do you have such a text?? (I know of none).

Because until then - we do have the NT text in Mark 7 saying not to edit/tweek/modify the Commandments of God via tradition.
=============================

Suppose for example you had

"week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
and "we gather for worship every week-day-1"

I would think you had two texts that finally give some support for week-day-1 as a holy day. And to prove that it is not 'another Holy Day' but rather the NEW day for Sabbath you might want to add 'and of course week-day-1 is the Sabbath".

A perfect combination of 3 texts... for which you have not even one of them.

fortunately we DO have this -

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

==========================

Now the Jews of course would never have claimed that they had deleted or done away with the 5th commandment - simply because they had tweaked it (by implication) a tiny bit by adding their own rules about what is CORBAN.

How would it be considered 'editing' the 10 Commandments, since Christians are not under the Law at all, for Christians to want their holy day for the Lord to be Sunday?

I don't get it?

Are you offering this as an argument for the Jews to make in their own defense - to Christ's charge that they are "tweaking" the Commandment - even though they would never claim to have done that?

Or is this your argument that James is wrong when he claims that to break one of those commandments is to break them all?

Or is this your argument that Paul is wrong in Eph 6:2 to claim that the unit of Law "the TEN commandments" where the 5th commandment is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise" should still be of concern to NT saints?

It is one of your own fellow pro-sunday posters that posted this...

Jesus did not do away with the Commandments, even while he freed us from the consequences of failing to keep them 100% of the time. That's an important distinction.

But on the other hand, moving to Sunday worship is explicitly permitted, according to the New Testament
...
so it's not that the Christian churches are saying that keeping holy the Sabbath is of no importance anymore.

Read page 1 - to find a lot more pro-sunday posting like that.

Or read ... 12 minutes ago #658

 

[BobRyan]

The only thing you do here at CF is promote the "sabbatarian (read SDA) agenda."

bugkiller

Go back and "read" page 1 of this thread. Then post again letting your post be 'informed' by your own pro-sunday sources on page 1 - totally refuting the charge you have made... since your own position objects to all 7 of the pro-sunday arguments.

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus did not do away with the Commandments, even while he freed us from the consequences of failing to keep them 100% of the time. That's an important distinction.

But on the other hand, moving to Sunday worship is explicitly permitted, according to the New Testament
...
so it's not that the Christian churches are saying that keeping holy the Sabbath is of no importance anymore.

1. You have argued that observing the 4th commandment by breaking it and worshiping on week-day-1 instead of the 7th day - is still KEEPING the Sabbath.

2. You "quote you" quite often is saying that the New Testament permits us to claim we are keeping the Sabbath Commandment by ignoring the 7th day that is IN the Sabbath Commandment - and KEEPING week-day-1 per man-made-tradition 'instead'. Yet you admit you cannot find ONE text that says such a thing. So you keep "quoting you" as if "we won't notice".

, so it's not that the Christian churches are saying that keeping holy the Sabbath is of no importance anymore.

In fact, the fundamentalist mindset of the Seventh-day folks is rather funny, considering that the exact day of the week is ultra important to them,

exactly WHO is it that sticks the "exact day of the week" into the text of Gen 2:1-3, Ex 20:11?? is it "me" ??? Am I the author of the Bible???

And when "Sunday Observance" is mentioned -- do you ever raise your hand and say "not for me - I choose FRIDAY"???

but considering how many times the calendar that they and the rest of us use has been changed, with days left out, leap years accounted for, and so on, that no one can say for sure that today is the same day as it was in antiquity anyway.

This year was a leap year. Sun Feb 28 was followed by Monday Feb 29,,,,, instead of Monday March 1. Is it really "your claim" that adding that day to the Calendar caused Monday not to follow Sunday???/

Seriously???

And what if Sunday Feb 28 had been followed by Monday March 15??? Would THAT have messed up the week????

Seriously?? That is what happens??

If so... I never heard of it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ToBeLoved]

Are you offering this as an argument for the Jews to make in their own defense - to Christ's charge that they are "tweaking" the Commandment - even though they would never claim to have done that?

Or is this your argument that James is wrong when he claims that to break one of those commandments is to break them all?

Or is this your argument that Paul is wrong in Eph 6:2 to claim that the unit of Law "the TEN commandments" where the 5th commandment is the "FIRST Commandment with a promise" should still be of concern to NT saints?

I am saying that since under the New Testament we are NOT held to the law, what day one celebrates the day of the Lord is of no consequence, nor is it changing anything, because JESUS CHRIST changed it.

Matthew 5:17–18
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish qthe Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished

Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.


Galatians 3:23–25
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,




Ephesians 2:15
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,


So, No LAW under the New Covenant. So, No Sabbath under the New Covenant. Nothing for anyone to change or edit.

 

[BobRyan]

The Old Covenant is in the New Testament to testify to what the Law was and that that Jesus freed us from the Law.

Your example in Romans 19-21 when looking at a few more verses and putting it in context compares it to what we now have in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. So it is only used as a contrast to the New Covenant.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Paul is not saying
1. The whole world USED to be accountable to God - now it is not.
2. It USED to be the case that by the works of the LAW no man would be justified.
3. The LAW USED to define what sin is.
4. The Law USED to speak to those who USED to be under the LAW.

In fact -- ALL have sinned even according to Rom 3 .. not "all used to sin".
IN fact "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 ..not "used to be".
In fact "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 ... not 'what USED to matter"
In fact "the SAINTs KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12... not "used to keep"
"It is not the HEARERS of the LAW that are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be justIFIED" Rom 2:13 . not 'used to be justified'


Rather Paul says these are all the work that the LAW did AND STILL DOES.

It did that in OT times.

IT continued to do that in Paul's day.

All sinners are to this very day condemned to the lake of Fire - second death if they do not accept the Gospel.

SAME as with the OT people -- either they could be among the OT saints of HEB 11 (Some of whom were taken directly to heaven without dying) - or they could be among the OT lost.

No. That's not true.

Although you say (above) that you list out to verse 21, it is missing.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Notice, APART FROM THE LAW, the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD through FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST for ALL who BELIEVE

You have shown nothing to negate vs 19-20.

Hint - Rom 3:19-20 did NOT say "righteousness of God was only manifest in His Law and only PART from faith... until now".

Rather "The GOSPEL was preached to THEM JUST as it was to US also" Heb 4:2.
"The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"there is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9

And so when you leave out Rom 3:31 -- the conclusion about the LAW and the Christian you miss the entire point of the Rom 3:19-22 sequence.

Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Now then reading it all together - and in unison.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe....
Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

 

[BobRyan]

I am saying that since under the New Testament we are NOT held to the law, what day one celebrates the day of the Lord is of no consequence, nor is it changing anything, because JESUS CHRIST changed it.

But not for those whose faith is based on "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine.

Hence

1. you claim Christ changed the 4th commandment and repointed it to week-day-1 ... but give no text at all for that man-made doctrine.
2. you claim that breaking God's Law is of no consequence - but Paul denies that in Rom 3:31 and in 1 Cor 7:19... and so does James.
3. you claim that we should ignore Christ's argument against the law breakers in Mark 7:6-13 - but provide no text for rejecting the teaching of Christ.


Rom 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty


17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled

And then there is Rom 13 -- Ten Commandments are PRESCRIPTIVE (like the speed limit) - all must comply - not just 'one'.

Rom 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Rom 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Matt 3:15
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

3 easy questions --


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the Commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Christ said "it is a big deal" in Mark 7


1. Question 1 -- In your view - is Christ in Error in Mark 7??

2. Question 2: Eph 6:2 "What unit of LAW" is being upheld by Paul in Eph 5:2 where the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a PROMISE"?... easy answer.

3. Question 3: Heb 8:6-10 NEW COVENANT "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 ---> what LAW did Jeremiah and his readders know about as being God's LAW?

hint: It includes the LAW of God known to the authors of the "Baptist Confession of Faith", "The Westminster Confession of Faith", D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul, Matthew Henry, C.H. Spurgeon, Andy Stanley)

===============================

What "LAW" condemns all the entire world in Rom 3:19-21 AND YET is "ESTABLISHED by our faith"??


Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

"do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

 

[ToBeLoved]

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Paul is not saying
1. The whole world USED to be accountable to God - now it is not.
2. It USED to be the case that by the works of the LAW no man would be justified.
3. The LAW USED to define what sin is.
4. The Law USED to speak to those who USED to be under the LAW.

In fact -- ALL have sinned even according to Rom 3 .. not "all used to sin".
IN fact "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 ..not "used to be".
In fact "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 ... not 'what USED to matter"
In fact "the SAINTs KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12... not "used to keep"
"It is not the HEARERS of the LAW that are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be justIFIED" Rom 2:13 . not 'used to be justified'

Rather Paul says these are all the work that the LAW did AND STILL DOES.

It did that in OT times.

IT continued to do that in Paul's day.

Have you read what JESUS said to the Jewish Pharisee's who were the teachers of the Law of Moses?

I'll show you.

1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

I do not think Jesus was preaching the Law of Moses as you would have us believe. I don't think He had a high regard for the teachers of the law either.

The problem arises when JESUS WORDS are against what you say.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You have shown nothing to negate vs 19-20.

As I have said earlier.

Reading verses 21 -23 negate your verses. Verses 19-20 show what was UNDER the Law. Verses 21-23 show what is UNDER Christ in the New Covenant.

You are using the verses incompletely, it is to show the before, Old Covenant, and the after, New Covenant and the differences.

Nothing to negate because it is representing the Old Covenant before Jesus.

What you are MISSING is that Jesus death for the forgiveness of sins changed EVERYTHING.

Knowing the Old Testament you should know how many prophets and holy men of God were waiting for Jesus. Testifying of who Jesus would be and what He would do before He was even born.

It was to FREE the people from the Old Covenant.

How did you miss that brother?

 

[BobRyan]

The Old Covenant is in the New Testament to testify to what the Law was and that that Jesus freed us from the Law.

Your example in Romans 19-21 when looking at a few more verses and putting it in context compares it to what we now have in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. So it is only used as a contrast to the New Covenant.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Paul is not saying
1. The whole world USED to be accountable to God - now it is not.
2. It USED to be the case that by the works of the LAW no man would be justified.
3. The LAW USED to define what sin is.
4. The Law USED to speak to those who USED to be under the LAW.

In fact -- ALL have sinned even according to Rom 3 .. not "all used to sin".
IN fact "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 ..not "used to be".
In fact "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 ... not 'what USED to matter"
In fact "the SAINTs KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12... not "used to keep"
"It is not the HEARERS of the LAW that are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be justIFIED" Rom 2:13 . not 'used to be justified'


Rather Paul says these are all the work that the LAW did AND STILL DOES.

It did that in OT times.

IT continued to do that in Paul's day.

All sinners are to this very day condemned to the lake of Fire - second death if they do not accept the Gospel.

SAME as with the OT people -- either they could be among the OT saints of HEB 11 (Some of whom were taken directly to heaven without dying) - or they could be among the OT lost.

No. That's not true.

Although you say (above) that you list out to verse 21, it is missing.

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

Notice, APART FROM THE LAW, the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD through FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST for ALL who BELIEVE

You have shown nothing to negate vs 19-20.

Hint - Rom 3:19-20 did NOT say "righteousness of God was only manifest in His Law and only PART from faith... until now".

Rather "The GOSPEL was preached to THEM JUST as it was to US also" Heb 4:2.
"The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"there is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9

And so when you leave out Rom 3:31 -- the conclusion about the LAW and the Christian you miss the entire point of the Rom 3:19-22 sequence.

Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Now then reading it all together - and in unison.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe....
Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Adding vs 31 allows you to avoid the error you make by your isolation of vs 21 alone.

Reading verses 21 -23 negate your verses.

This is your first indicator that your speculation is in error. There is 'no such thing as negating verses' in sola scriptura Bible study. Once you get into the business of refuting Bible texts - you are in the wrong business.

Verses 19-20 show what is UNDER the Law -- it does not say 'what was', you simply made that up.

In Vs 19-20 the entire world is still condemned as lost sinners - to this very day. And that only changes for those who choose to accept Christ - and are born again. Vs 21-23.

AND For those who ARE born again under Vs 21-23 we have that SAME vs 19-20 LAW in vs 31 "ESTABLISHED".
Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Verses 21-23 show what is UNDER Christ in the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33. True in BOTH OT and NT.

You are using the verses incompletely, and out of context. as I have shown.

Romans 3 shows what it is to be under the "Obey and Live" Old Covenant, and then it shows the "after" context of the New Covenant concluding with Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Nothing in the text says "before Jesus was born" or "Before Jesus died on the cross" .

Rather the text states that STILL to this very day "ALL have sinned AND come short of the glory of God".
STILL to this very day "SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

This is NEW TESTAMENT doctrine.

STILL to this very day "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:l19

What you are MISSING is that Jesus death for the forgiveness of sins only CHANGES things for the one that accepts the Gospel - the lost sinner REMAINS condemned under the "obey and live" conditions of the STILL valid Old Covenant.

How did you miss that brother?

 

[BobRyan]

Knowing the Old Testament you should know how many prophets and holy men of God were waiting for Jesus. Testifying of who Jesus would be and what He would do before He was even born.

Moses and Elijah STAND WITH CHRIST - in Matt 17 -- BEFORE the Cross!!

The Gospel is in effect - BEFORE the cross and is preached.

Rather "The GOSPEL was preached to THEM JUST as it was to US also" Heb 4:2.
"The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"there is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9

Elijah and Enoch - both taken to heaven BEFORE the cross - fully forgiven!

The born-again experience is BEFORE the cross - as Christ reminds us all in John 3.

Heb 11 - even Noah was a giant of faith and the "righteousness that is by faith" as we are told in Heb 11.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Rom 3:19-21
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Paul is not saying
1. The whole world USED to be accountable to God - now it is not.
2. It USED to be the case that by the works of the LAW no man would be justified.
3. The LAW USED to define what sin is.
4. The Law USED to speak to those who USED to be under the LAW.

In fact -- ALL have sinned even according to Rom 3 .. not "all used to sin".
IN fact "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 ..not "used to be".
In fact "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 ... not 'what USED to matter"
In fact "the SAINTs KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12... not "used to keep"
"It is not the HEARERS of the LAW that are just before God - but the DOERS of the LAW WILL be justIFIED" Rom 2:13 . not 'used to be justified'


Rather Paul says these are all the work that the LAW did AND STILL DOES.

It did that in OT times.

IT continued to do that in Paul's day.

All sinners are to this very day condemned to the lake of Fire - second death if they do not accept the Gospel.

SAME as with the OT people -- either they could be among the OT saints of HEB 11 (Some of whom were taken directly to heaven without dying) - or they could be among the OT lost.




You have shown nothing to negate vs 19-20.

Hint - Rom 3:19-20 did NOT say "righteousness of God was only manifest in His Law and only PART from faith... until now".

Rather "The GOSPEL was preached to THEM JUST as it was to US also" Heb 4:2.
"The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"there is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9

And so when you leave out Rom 3:31 -- the conclusion about the LAW and the Christian you miss the entire point of the Rom 3:19-22 sequence.

Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Now then reading it all together - and in unison.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe....
Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Adding vs 31 allows you to avoid the error you make by your isolation of vs 21 alone.



This is your first indicator that your speculation is in error. There is 'no such thing as negating verses' in sola scriptura Bible study. Once you get into the business of refuting Bible texts - you are in the wrong business.

Verses 19-20 show what is UNDER the Law -- it does not say 'what was', you simply made that up.

In Vs 19-20 the entire world is still condemned as lost sinners - to this very day. And that only changes for those who choose to accept Christ - and are born again. Vs 21-23.

AND For those who ARE born again under Vs 21-23 we have that SAME vs 19-20 LAW in vs 31 "ESTABLISHED".
Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Verses 21-23 show what is UNDER Christ in the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33. True in BOTH OT and NT.

You are using the verses incompletely, and out of context. as I have shown.

Romans 3 shows what it is to be under the "Obey and Live" Old Covenant, and then it shows the "after" context of the New Covenant concluding with Rom 3:31 "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Nothing in the text says "before Jesus was born" or "Before Jesus died on the cross" .

Rather the text states that STILL to this very day "ALL have sinned AND come short of the glory of God".
STILL to this very day "SIN is TRANSGRESSION of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

This is NEW TESTAMENT doctrine.

STILL to this very day "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:l19

What you are MISSING is that Jesus death for the forgiveness of sins only CHANGES things for the one that accepts the Gospel - the lost sinner REMAINS condemned under the "obey and live" conditions of the STILL valid Old Covenant.

How did you miss that brother?

That is in fact a 'cut and paste' of your previous posts.

Guess you have nothing new to say since you are using your previous posts.

I will be here when you have something to say that is new and refutes the points I have made.

Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Moses and Elijah STAND WITH CHRIST - in Matt 17 -- BEFORE the Cross!!

The Gospel is in effect - BEFORE the cross and is preached.

Rather "The GOSPEL was preached to THEM JUST as it was to US also" Heb 4:2.
"The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7
"there is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9

Elijah and Enoch - both taken to heaven BEFORE the cross - fully forgiven!

The born-again experience is BEFORE the cross - as Christ reminds us all in John 3.

Heb 11 - even Noah was a giant of faith and the "righteousness that is by faith" as we are told in Heb 11.

And they all testified of Christ who would be coming.

So how does that nullify that Jesus fulfilled the law and gave us only two commandments in the New Covenant that fulfill ALL of the law?

Also, how do you explain the words of Jesus Christ Himself to the Pharisee's (the teachers of the Law of Moses) calling them over and over hypocrites? I think that a whole chapter devoted to this in Matthew 23 is VERY telling that Jesus wanted to create a New Covenant in which the Law was FULFILLED.

 

[BobRyan]

ToBeLoved said: ↑
I do not think Jesus was preaching the Law of Moses as you would have us believe. I don't think He had a high regard for the teachers of the law either.

The problem arises when JESUS WORDS are against what you say.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the Commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Christ said "it is a big deal" in Mark 7


===============================================

So now - try to answer these easy questions -



1. Question 1 -- In your view - is Christ in Error in Mark 7??

2. Question 2: Eph 6:2 "What unit of LAW" is being upheld by Paul in Eph 5:2 where the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment with a PROMISE"?... easy answer.

3. Question 3: Heb 8:6-10 NEW COVENANT "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 ---> what LAW did Jeremiah and his readders know about as being God's LAW?

hint: It includes the LAW of God known to the authors of the "Baptist Confession of Faith", "The Westminster Confession of Faith", D.L. Moody, R.C. Sproul, Matthew Henry, C.H. Spurgeon, Andy Stanley)

===============================

What "LAW" condemns all the entire world in Rom 3:19-21 AND YET is "ESTABLISHED by our faith"??


Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

"do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

 

[BobRyan]

And they all testified of Christ who would be coming.

So how does that nullify that Jesus fulfilled the law and gave us only two commandments in the New Covenant that fulfill ALL of the law?

There is no "nullify" - you are going down the wrong road each time you try that out.

They predict the Messiah and his death for the sins of the world BUT they do not predict that "some day we WILL have the Gospel" rather as Paul tells us -- they already HAVE the Gospel and in 1 Cor 10:4 they already HAD Christ!

In fact in Heb 8:6-10 it is CHRIST giving them the TEN Commandments.

And the NEW Birth - according to CHRIST - in John 3 - is BEFORE the Cross!

 

[BobRyan]

That is in fact a 'cut and paste' of your previous posts.

With your added comments to THAT post - AND my added response showing how the texts in that prior post "REMAIN"

"details matter"

 

[BobRyan]

Clearly you are enthusiastic about this topic and I welcome that.

In addition you have free will and can choose to ignore the simple questions asked, the Bible texts that you claim to negate etc.

BUT I prefer the 'both-and' solution AND refuting/negating NO Bible text at all!

"Give me the Bible AND the words IN the Bible"

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is no "nullify" - you are going down the wrong road each time you try that out.

They predict the Messiah and his death for the sins of the world BUT they do not predict that "some day we WILL have the Gospel" rather as Paul tells us -- they already HAVE the Gospel and in 1 Cor 10:4 they already HAD Christ!

In fact in Heb 8:6-10 it is CHRIST giving them the TEN Commandments.

And the NEW Birth - according to CHRIST - in John 3 - is BEFORE the Cross!

lol.

The new birth is not before Christ. Christ was telling Nicodemus what was needed to be born spiritually into the Kingdom of God.

Nice try though.

 

[ToBeLoved]

With your added comments to THAT post - AND my added response showing how the texts in that prior post "REMAIN"

"details matter"

I've already read your posts and my own responses, so it is a repeat.

It is still incorrect, no matter how many times you repost it.