Abortion Discussion

[civilwarbuff]

But I am specifically addressing abortion in cases of rape. Unless you believe in involuntary servitude, surely you would agree that an innocent rape victim should not be forced to carry the fetus to term against her will.

Surely you cant disagree that an innocent baby should not be terminated against its' will?

 

[Archivist]

As I mentioned to another poster we cannot be capricious with any human life.

So you support involuntary servitude? Do you support it in all cases or just in cases involving rape victims?

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Interesting. If I had a hat and cane...

Let's stop the skirting. A human life is human life. A distinct life with their own code and 23 chromosomes from mom and 23 chromosomes from dad.

Yes, "a human life" is human life. But "human life"[for instance in the womb] is not (necessarily) a human life. The cancer is not a human life, but it is undoubtedly human and alive, i.e. human life.

 

[Archivist]

Surely you cant disagree that an innocent baby should not be terminated against its' will?

And surely you agree that an innocent woman shouldn't be forced into involuntary servitude. And again, if the rape victim wants to carry the fetus to term that is wonderful. She just shouldn't be forced to do it against her will.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

BTW, it is NOT alive and cannot be killed since it is not alive. It is NOT an unborn human, it is a glob of cells growing to first become a fetus and then a possible person if it makes it through birth and lives.

It is growing at fast speed and it is not alive? And BTW, did you know that by the time a woman finds out she is pregnant, there is a beating heart in the unborn. This is why abortion is a bloody business!

 

[redleghunter]

What red herring? People (if I recall, you brought it up) are saying beings that are "human" demands moral worth.

I am asking, by what merit we put moral worth into things, so as to discern whether a conceptus possess these traits. People appear to be saying the fact that a conceptus is "human" gives it . The only way this matters is if by "human" you mean "person", or if by "human" you mean an organism with human DNA. If it is the former, then we have to discuss what a person is. Which inevitably leads to the latter- human DNA is not sufficient or necessary condition for personhood in that is not required nor not enough to warrant personhood or moral responsibility, as my thought experiments are meant to show.

Just because the conceptus possesses human DNA does not mean it automatically garners moral worth. That is all I am saying. I am asking what does give it moral worth. What trait gives the conceptus moral worth?

Define your moral worth and at what point we obtain such and then please justify the termination of those who don't have this moral worth.

Finally please indicate what becomes of your moral worth when sitting as judge, jury and executioner for a human life not able to defend itself from your judgement.

 

[redleghunter]

Maybe not capricious, but WE CERTAINLY SHOULD TRY TO KILL SOME OF IT.

Cancer cells are human life, they are human (not pig or mosquito) DNA and they are alive, unfortunately.

Now you are arguing from a human cell meme.

If we take cancer cells from a person they will have the same code as that person. It will be distinct from all others.

 

[civilwarbuff]

"I don't advocate abortion but I don't think I should stand in someone else's way to have one...."
I wanna hear the explanation for that one at the Great White Throne Judgement......bet there will lots of tap dancing....to no avail.....

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

Then when is this new human life created?

I said it's what a pregnancy is. Do you not know when there is a pregnancy?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.

Wrong! If you consult a biology book, you will discover that what makes us alive is oxygen. Adam became alive when oxygen supply was provided to his body. The same is true about the unborn. Oxygen is supplied to the unborn through the placenta. This is why the unborn is alive and able to grow.

 

[redleghunter]

So you support involuntary servitude? Do you support it in all cases or just in cases involving rape victims?

Do you support involuntary death?

I would gather you don't in all cases.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

“I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person, and it has always, therefore, seemed to me that what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed."

Wrong again! What makes the unborn a unique individual is its DNA--not birth!

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, "a human life" is human life. But "human life"[for instance in the womb] is not (necessarily) a human life. The cancer is not a human life, but it is undoubtedly human and alive, i.e. human life.

A human life is not cancer. You can file 13 that notion.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Very true--thank you!

That's all we advocate.

Whether a person gets an abortion or not is not up to us, it's not our decision. Some here would deny a woman that freedom and choose for her, regardless of how she feels about it.

 

[Archivist]

Do you support involuntary death? I would gather you don't in all cases.

I have said numerous times in this thread that it is a wonderful thing if the rape victim decides to carry the fetus to term. But she shouldn't be forced to do so.

 

[redleghunter]

And surely you agree that an innocent woman shouldn't be forced into involuntary servitude. And again, if the rape victim wants to carry the fetus to term that is wonderful. She just shouldn't be forced to do it against her will.

In your view what's the difference between a woman seeking an abortion due to rape and a woman who seeks an abortion for convenience? In both cases a woman can cite being held captive.

How do you address the liberty in the one case compared to the other?

I'm asking because you are taking the liberty argument.

 

[SteveB28]

Frankly the "question" was a goad. And the above I would consider inflammatory.

I see. Questions that are difficult to confront are "goads".

How rather typical.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

So, it is not an individual? Is it part of a collective? Maybe Borg? It is human life but not a human life??????? In all seriousness, where do you get this stuff from? My beliefs are biblical so please explain how you come to believe a statement like that.

Based on the truth, true statements. I believe in the truth.

I said: "It is not "a human life" (which is a living autonomous being), but IT IS HUMAN LIFE, and what that means is that it is composed of human cells." IT'S A COLLECTION OF CELLS, so perhaps it's a "collective," whatever you mean by that term. It is not very intelligible to call it (a fetus) "part of a collective." What collective would that be?

If you care to check my posts nearby where I have been explaining this to "Redleg," you should be very aware that it is SERIOUSLY TRUE that there is human life that is not a human life. A cancer is obviously that!

 

[GoldenBoy89]

"I don't advocate abortion but I don't think I should stand in someone else's way to have one...."
I wanna hear the explanation for that one at the Great White Throne Judgement......bet there will lots of tap dancing....to no avail.....

While this isn't something I'll have to worry about, I do wonder how Jesus would feel about people using hell to guilt trip someone else into submission.

 

[Verv]

And surely you agree that an innocent woman shouldn't be forced into involuntary servitude. And again, if the rape victim wants to carry the fetus to term that is wonderful. She just shouldn't be forced to do it against her will.

There are laws that a Doctor has to provide treatment and medical care to a patient, and there are laws that a mother or caretaker has to provide care and assistance to her young. It would fall in this category.

But let's say, for whatever reason, that we are opposed only to using abortion as a form of birth control.

Maybe you would then also support the pro-life arguments because at this point it was a choice to become pregnant. Thus, your argument seems incomplete.