Abortion Discussion

[Radrook]

What actually happens, dear sir, is that what was once a fetus breathes the breath of life and becomes a living soul. (In accord with Genesis.) The real baby a minute after birth is quite different that what was in the womb. It is no longer very much like a parasite attached to it's host is one other truth very obvious about it.
It is incorrect to say it is the same, especially when it is (obviously) dead.

As to your point about a "magic wand," it's a bit like claiming a sperm is a zygote before it unties with an ovum, because it is (part of) a zygote after it fertilizes the egg. They are NOT the same thing, and neither is a fetus a baby for the couple of obvious reasons I just indicated plus a whole lot more.

The mother is endowing the fetus with the breath of live via her own breathing and it is receiving it via the umbilical cord.

BTW
The word "nephesh" translated as "soul" is a word which not all Christians accept as referring to some invisible entity within the human body.

 

[KCfromNC]

Calling it a fetus just makes people feel better about killing babies.

And calling it a cute innocent baby just makes people feel better about using the threat of force to impose their religious convictions onto other people.

Emotionally-charged rhetoric doesn't prove anything.

 

[Radrook]

And calling it a cute innocent baby just makes people feel better about using the threat of force to impose their religious convictions onto other people.

Emotionally-charged rhetoric doesn't prove anything.

The law against murder is a religious conviction?

 

[KCfromNC]

The law against murder is a religious conviction?

No. This thread is about abortion, not murder. If you want to discuss the origins of laws against murder you should start a new thread.

 

[Radrook]

No. This thread is about abortion, not murder. If you want to discuss the origins of laws against murder you should start a new thread.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[KCfromNC]

They aren't mutually exclusive.

Previous posters tried to equate the two and then got very quiet when it was shown that even when it was illegal here in the US abortion wasn't treated as murder. If you'd like to find somewhere that it actually is, feel free. Otherwise the right thing to do is start a new thread since it has no purpose here.

 

[redleghunter]

No we only have one, the raped woman. Then a decision needs to be made. If you think the abortion victemizes the fertilized egg, so be it. But then it come down to victemizing the egg or the woman who was raped.

If you use a biology book what does it say a fertilized egg is?

 

[Radrook]

Previous posters tried to equate the two and then got very quiet when it was shown that even when it was illegal here in the US

What matters isn't how secular courts or legal systems view it. What matters to Christians is how God views it and describes it in the scriptures.
So your premise is flawed.

About your demands:

Unfortunately for anti religionists and atheists, this whole website is dedicated to Christians who believe that the scriptures are to be taken seriously and the ones who are out of place here are those who contradict that view as clearly stated by the website administrators. So your insistent demands that I desist from defending the scriptural view are ridiculously wayyyy off the mark. If indeed you wish to make a totally atheistic thread which denigrates scripture you are at the wrong website. IMHO.


The Apostles Before the Council

Acts 5:
…28saying, "We gave you strict orders not to
continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." 29But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men."

 

[AirPo]

If you use a biology book what does it say a fertilized egg is?

That doesn't matter on bit.

 

[redleghunter]

How convenient the "innocent" label is when it suits. Isn't it you lot that claims we are ALL 'guilty' of 'filthy sins'?

Didn't know you were a pastor or preacher. I will await the remainder of your sermon. You have me intrigued.

 

[redleghunter]

Does one deserve slavery?

Death vs. Slavery but the choice is not for the same person. How do you justify 'ruling' on that?

 

[redleghunter]

That doesn't matter on bit.

Sure it does.




“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.”

Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

 

[Archivist]

Death vs. Slavery but the choice is not for the same person. How do you justify 'ruling' on that?

Easy call--the pregnant woman is a life in being. The fetus is not. Her decision should prevail.

But, of course, you ahve already said that it is not indentured servitude to force a rape victim to carry the fetus produced by that rape to term. Never mind all that she will have to go through. Nothing like punishing a rape victim twice.

 

[Chany]

Sure it does.




“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.”

Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

You've shown that the conceptus is a biological organism.

Not seeing the point.

 

[redleghunter]

Easy call--the pregnant woman is a life in being. The fetus is not. Her decision should prevail.

But, of course, you ahve already said that it is not indentured servitude to force a rape victim to carry the fetus produced by that rape to term. Never mind all that she will have to go through. Nothing like punishing a rape victim twice.

You base 'life in being' on what exactly? Embryology, personal view, church view?

 

[redleghunter]

You've shown that the conceptus is a biological organism.

Not seeing the point.

Indeed. Conception of what species exactly from a human mother and human father. Yes a human conception. A new distinct human life is created at conception.

Therefore, with that in conscience one makes a decision to either protect human life or terminate it.

 

[AirPo]

Sure it does.




“Fertilization – the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism – is the culmination of a multitude of intricately regulated cellular processes.”

Marcello et al., Fertilization, ADV. EXP. BIOL. 757:321 (2013)

That's nice but it doesn't change anything.

 

[AirPo]

Indeed. Conception of what species exactly from a human mother and human father. Yes a human conception. A new distinct human life is created at conception.

Therefore, with that in conscience one makes a decision to either protect human life or terminate it.

Which is what I said. See it didn't make a difference. Now here's the kicker, who's the one that makes the decision?

 

[Archivist]

You base 'life in being' on what exactly? Embryology, personal view, church view?

Life in being is an old legal concept the comes from the celebrated Rule against Perpetuities, a rules that has baffled generations of law students. The pregnant woman is a life in being. The fetus is a life in being only if it survives until birth.

Given that the fetus cannot make a decision and the pregnant woman can, why should the choice to rest with her? If not her, who else? You?

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

The mother is endowing the fetus with the breath of live via her own breathing and it is receiving it via the umbilical cord.

No. There is NO breathing in the fetus. If you say the fetus breaths (uses lungs, etc.) you do not know what you are talking about. The fetus itself does not have any breath.

It has life, but is not a life in the sense of being a human being. A living breathing human being. The life that is in the fetus comes from the sperm and the egg - it is that SAME LIFE that is sustained by the pregnant woman, including her breathing of course which never takes place in the fetus.