Abortion Discussion

[Cearbhall]

Where did you get the idea that we are trying to win a debate? This is a Christian Forum so you are the intruder trying to win the debate and make us believe that we have to ditch our christian worldview to accommodate your atheistic nothingness evidenced by the fact that you consider yourself superior.

Intruder...? Hon, you've been here two months. It's not quite time to fight the status quo.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We just need to outfit you with a mitre flowing robes and replace that Francis guy.

I would have made a good pope. Though Francis does not seem to be too bad. I would have fixed a lot of the church's problems with scandals by making the wrong doing of the church public. By doing so one discourages future scandals since people would know that the system would no longer hide them and it would be a necessary step for the healing to begin. It might hurt the Catholic church for a little while, but they would be stronger by the end.

 

[redleghunter]

The problem is that not everyone sees a fetus as "life". Until you convince others that a fetus should have all of the rights of a born person you are not going to be able to win this debate. And for me "winning" would mean a change in the laws that govern this act, not just convincing a few people on an internet forum.

Thank you for answering the obvious subjective approach.

Am I to conclude that if you were convinced that at conception we have a newly formed human life you would be opposed to abortion on demand?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I know atheists like to blame the God who does not exist according to them for everything but on this one, you are your own worst enemy.

I've never met an atheist that blamed a god they don't believe exists. For anything. Do you have any evidence this is actually true, or is this just another piece of unsubstantiated "truth"?

 

[tiglathpileser]

A baby in the womb is not possible, period.

if you care to look at post 517, you will see five photos of babies that came out of a womb.

 

[Cearbhall]

Am I to conclude that if you were convinced that at conception we have a newly formed human life you would be opposed to abortion on demand?

What exactly do you mean by that, though? Are you speaking scientifically or theologically? There's no mystery about what a zygote is and what it is not.

if you care to look at post 517, you will see five photos of babies that came out of a womb.

Yes. This sentence agrees with what Douglas said. Now they are babies because they came out of the womb.

 

[redleghunter]

They view "merit" as in how abrasive and childish they can be, or how much rhetoric can be spewed, or the frequency of the logical fallacies, or the amount of misinformation, or...

Perhaps tone it down a bit. Such off hand comments already got one thread closed today.

This one has been surprisingly civil.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Where did you get the idea that we are trying to win a debate? This is a Christian Forum so you are the intruder trying to win the debate and make us believe that we have to ditch our christian worldview to accommodate your atheistic nothingness evidenced by the fact that you consider yourself superior.

I can clearly show that I am superior. Simply looking down your noses at those that need abortions does you no good or your cause, and it is not very "Christian" either. That is what you would do. I thought that you wanted to change the world. That is what I would want to do. I would not want to simply whine in a corner about how others are "immoral". By the way, I am not trying to get you to ditch your view. And please, I have not been rude about your superstitious beliefs, you should not be rude about mine.

I am so glad that the scripture teaches us that God chose the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. He did not choose the superior things as they tend to be full of their own self importance which is what is coming over from you.

But it doesn't. That is merely a silly defensive verse. It has no meaning in the real world.

The scripture asks us what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul. The answer is simple. Absolutely NOTHING. On the day of judgment you will not be assessed by how much you know. You will be assessed by your acceptance or rejection of God's salvation. Acceptance means your name goes into the Lamb's Book of Life. Rejection means it doesn't and if it is not there, it is zero for you and you will have only yourself to blame.

And I am not suggesting that you lose your soul. I am telling you that your approach to this problem is not productive for you or for anyone else.

I know atheists like to blame the God who does not exist according to them for everything but on this one, you are your own worst enemy.

That makes no logical sense at all. You need to try again.

 

[Cearbhall]

I know atheists like to blame the God who does not exist according to them for everything but on this one, you are your own worst enemy.

It's funny how you seem to "know" multiple things that aren't true.

 

[redleghunter]

Very good, the problem is that even in China the number of female births may have been greatly obscured by the hiding of female births. Under the old One Child rule, it was recently rescinded, the births of some children were hidden. You could not be charged if no one knew that you had a child. From the second source:

"When sex ratio began being studied in China in 1960, it was still within the normal range. However, it climbed to 111.9 by 1990[9] and to 118 by 2010 per its official census.[49][50] Researchers believe that the causes of this sex ratio imbalance are increased female infant mortality, underreporting of female births and sex-selective abortion. According to Zeng et al. (1993), the most prominent cause is probably sex-selective abortion, but this is difficult to prove that in a country with little reliable birth data because of the hiding of “illegal” (under the One-Child Policy) births.[51]

These illegal births have led to underreporting of female infants. Zeng et al., using a reverse survival method, estimate that underreporting keeps about 2.26% male births and 5.94% female births off the books. Adjusting for unreported illegal births, they conclude that the corrected Chinese sex ratio at birth for 1989 was 111 rather than 115.[51] These national averages over time, mask the regional sex ratio data. For example, in some provinces such as Anhui, Jiangxi, Shaanxi, Hunan and Guangdong, sex ratio at birth is more than 130.[52][53]"

That being said, I would have no problem on banning selective abortion. The problem is proving it in the first place.

Your sources confirms what I posted as well.

Your sources surmise hidden children then shoot themselves in the foot by claiming birth statistics are hard to come by.

 

[redleghunter]

The liberty of one is in conflict with the liberty of the other. You would choose the embryo?

I'm not nearly as concerned about an embryo as I am about a grown person.

Where did I judge liberty vs liberty?

I didn't.

I presented a liberty vs a life.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your sources confirms what I posted as well.

Your sources surmise hidden children then shoot themselves in the foot by claiming birth statistics are hard to come by.

Actually it was your source. And it was explaining the difficulty of calculating how bad sex selection is because it was known that the hiding of children occurred under the "one child" rule. If a first child was a girl and the parents needed a boy to help out, and that is still the case there, the birth of a girl was not always reported. That did not mean that they killed the girl, though I have heard enough horror stories of that too. I know of more than one couple that wanted a baby and could not have one of their own and ended up adopting a baby from China. One guess on the sexes of those babies.

 

[tiglathpileser]

I've never met an atheist that blamed a god they don't believe exists. For anything. Do you have any evidence this is actually true, or is this just another piece of unsubstantiated "truth"?

There is that word "I" again. If you care to troll through threads that talk about cultural matters here you will find time and time again atheists saying God does not exist. You really must do your homework.

Just a small point. We non atheists do not troll the internet day and night to seek out the last bit of information to confound the foolish and we do not get all het up if we do not record every programme and word in it to try and convince someone of our cause and we do not read every book with pencil and paper on hand to make sure we have every single fact recorded and we do not listen to every radio programme making sure every fact said is written down to keep atheists happy.

No, we do what we are told to do and that is to get a life that enables us to enjoy what we are doing, or seeing or listening to and what atheists thinks or wants to know is the farthest thing on our mind. For example, when I watched the TV programme where Bernard Nathenson said every abortion kills a baby, I didn't watch it because I knew he was going to say it. I watched it because I wanted to watch it and for no other reason and as a result I HEARD him say "Every abortion kills a baby."

I know that is hard for you to swallow as your world view puts no value on life with its survival of the fittest theology which by the way gave birth to Planned Parenthood as Margaret Sanger the founder took it to heart and saw a way of making lots of money. And your worldview rolls the dice and takes a punt on what is considered kosher or not whereas our worldview is founded on a sure foundation informed by the Word of God so we have a reference point for all our decisions and we are not left to our own devices to stumble through life in the hope that we are doing the right thing.

That is not to say we get everything right but at least we don't go around parading ourselves as "superior" as some atheists do in an attempt to show their baby killing ideology is the one that should be embraced by all and justified without question.

If I am a fool for Christ's sake I consider myself as very blessed.

 

[tiglathpileser]

It's funny how you seem to "know" multiple things that aren't true.

Yeah, I am a really funny guy. Stops me taking life so seriously and having to put everyone right if they haven't got evidence for this that and the other.

 

[tiglathpileser]

I can clearly show that I am superior. Simply looking down your noses at those that need abortions does you no good or your cause, and it is not very "Christian" either. That is what you would do. I thought that you wanted to change the world. That is what I would want to do. I would not want to simply whine in a corner about how others are "immoral". By the way, I am not trying to get you to ditch your view. And please, I have not been rude about your superstitious beliefs, you should not be rude about mine.

But it doesn't. That is merely a silly defensive verse. It has no meaning in the real world.

And I am not suggesting that you lose your soul. I am telling you that your approach to this problem is not productive for you or for anyone else.

That makes no logical sense at all. You need to try again.

Thanks for the laugh. You are definitely superior...in your own eyes but you need to know that self praise is no praise.

I have never looked down on those wanting an abortion and have never said I do as the subject here is abortion, not those who want an abortion which in your superior zeal you have missed. And if I looked down on those who wanted an abortion I would never have volunteered my time and energy at a Pregnancy Support Centre. People who look down on those who want an abortion don't do that and that is why not many atheists spend their time helping at centres like this because alternatives are not on their agenda.

And we are changing the world by our efforts to help those troubled by an unwanted pregnancy. As a result of our help there are many children walking the streets today which would not be the case if they fell into the hands of anti-choice abortionists.

And you have been rude about our beliefs because you have called them superstitious. You are mocking but that doesn't worry us as we know that is the best you can do when you hate being disagreed with. I can't be rude about yours because I have been told numerous times that atheism is not a belief system. You can't be rude about something that does not exist.

It may have no meaning in your world but your world in only inhabited by a few hundred thousand whereas my world is inhabited by 2.3 billion so your world is trifling by comparison to mine.

You can suggest all you like but it is YOU not me that is going to lose your soul. And my approach is productive because there are children walking the streets today that would otherwise have been destined for the garbage bin if the abortionists had hads their way. And I am advised from reliable sources that more young people in America are against abortion than there are for it. The future leaders come from this group so it looks as though the abortion holocaust is going to get a nasty jolt.

And having babies killed is productive? Don't make me laugh.

Which only goes to show that atheists don't have much in the logical basket. Thanks for confirming that for me.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Intruder...? Hon, you've been here two months. It's not quite time to fight the status quo.

I am not your Hon and I did not say I am the intruder which you would be clear about if you bothered to read what I said instead of trying to accuse me of saying what you want me to say.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thanks for the laugh. You are definitely superior...in your own eyes but you need to know that self praise is no praise.

I never claimed that it was.

I have never looked down on those wanting an abortion and have never said I do as the subject here is abortion, not those who want an abortion which in your superior zeal you have missed. And if I looked down on those who wanted an abortion I would never have volunteered my time and energy at a Pregnancy Support Centre. People who look down on those who want an abortion don't do that and that is why not many atheists spend their time helping at centres like this because alternatives are not on their agenda.

Your posts here do not support that. Claiming that abortion is the killing of babies is not praising someone. It is also wrong. And don't give me that "Pregnancy Support Centre" nonsense. Most of those places are just anti-abortion sites in disguise. Now if you could give examples of how you tried to avert abortions I might be impressed. One does that by making birth control readily available to anyone that wants it.

And we are changing the world by our efforts to help those troubled by an unwanted pregnancy. As a result of our help there are many children walking the streets today which would not be the case if they fell into the hands of anti-choice abortionists.

But you are not really helping those people so much as proselytizing. I thing that is actually the opposite of what you make it out to be.

And you have been rude about our beliefs because you have called them superstitious. You are mocking but that doesn't worry us as we know that is the best you can do when you hate being disagreed with. I can't be rude about yours because I have been told numerous times that atheism is not a belief system. You can't be rude about something that does not exist.

Not even close I did not point out that you have a superstitious belief until after you were rude more than once. And don't complain about mocking when you went out of your way to earn it. That is hypocritical to say the least. You seem to have no understanding of atheism. When you don't know something the correct thing to do is to ask politely.

It may have no meaning in your world but your world in only inhabited by a few hundred thousand whereas my world is inhabited by 2.3 billion so your world is trifling by comparison to mine.

Where did you get that number from? Atheism in its many forms is currently over a billion the last that I heard.

You can suggest all you like but it is YOU not me that is going to lose your soul. And my approach is productive because there are children walking the streets today that would otherwise have been destined for the garbage bin if the abortionists had hads their way. And I am advised from reliable sources that more young people in America are against abortion than there are for it. The future leaders come from this group so it looks as though the abortion holocaust is going to get a nasty jolt.

Wrong again. Your soul will end up the same place as mine. Please, your false "holier than thou" attitude gets no credit anywhere.

And having babies killed is productive? Don't make me laugh.

Which only goes to show that atheists don't have much in the logical basket. Thanks for confirming that for me.

Once again, no one is advocating killing babies. And until you prove by some reasonable means that abortion is killing babies then you are only using prejudicial language again.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Yes. This sentence agrees with what Douglas said. Now they are babies because they came out of the womb.

Are you for real? The photos show babies that were aborted so they were babies before they were aborted and they are babies after they were aborted. Someone wasn't standing over the abortion waving a magic wand that turned them into babies once they had been aborted. A minute before they were aborted they were same as the minute after they were aborted. If you don;t understand this you need to quietly resign your defence of abortion and start to learn what actually happens.

I will say one thing, your post shows us very clearly that you are totally out of your depth when discussing abortion. Your focus is more about supercilious comment than intelligent discussion and building a case for your argument. So, please don't expect us take anything you say seriously.

 

[Radrook]

Instead of preferring to have the life developing in their wombs slashed to pieces, stabbed to death or poisoned, why don't these ladies simply stop getting pregnant in the firs place by availing themselves of contraceptive pills, diaphragms or perhaps tube ligation?

 

[tiglathpileser]

I never claimed that it was.

Your posts here do not support that. Claiming that abortion is the killing of babies is not praising someone. It is also wrong. And don't give me that "Pregnancy Support Centre" nonsense. Most of those places are just anti-abortion sites in disguise. Now if you could give examples of how you tried to avert abortions I might be impressed. One does that by making birth control readily available to anyone that wants it.

But you are not really helping those people so much as proselytizing. I thing that is actually the opposite of what you make it out to be.

Not even close I did not point out that you have a superstitious belief until after you were rude more than once. And don't complain about mocking when you went out of your way to earn it. That is hypocritical to say the least. You seem to have no understanding of atheism. When you don't know something the correct thing to do is to ask politely.

Where did you get that number from? Atheism in its many forms is currently over a billion the last that I heard.

Wrong again. Your soul will end up the same place as mine. Please, your false "holier than thou" attitude gets no credit anywhere.

Once again, no one is advocating killing babies. And until you prove by some reasonable means that abortion is killing babies then you are only using prejudicial language again.

GlobalStudy: Atheists in Decline, Only 1.8% of World Population by 2020. 97% of the world's population growth is taking place in the developing world, where 95% of people are religious.

Your posts are getting more strident and ludicrous. To say that christians and atheists will end up in the same place shows that intelligent comment has left your room. Back pedaling will achieve nothing as you were rude about our beliefs by calling them superstitious so it is no use claiming that you can be rude because you think we were rude first. Two wrongs don't make a right. I would have thought you would have known that as you are so superior.

As for Pregnancy Support Centres being anti abortion sites in disguise, you are so bigoted and biased against the truth it is unbelievable. Despite your so called superior knowledge, that comment alone shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Our main activity is supporting the mother and baby after the birth but I realise you don't want anyone to do anything that will lower the number of abortions. You can deny that all you want but your words prove otherwise.

Another stupid comment you have made is that making birth control available to anyone will avert abortions is mind boggling in the extreme. I don't know what world you live in but ANYONE can walk into a chemist and get birth control or see their doctor and get it without question.

Birth control is only effective if you use it. A lot of abortions happen because the two people involved do not use it. I am surprised you are so ignorant of the facts. I guess they are not important to you as you would rather deal in dogmatic rhetoric and blase nonsense.

if you had anything intelligent to say you have lost me now with that tirade of nonsense which is supposed to pass as informed comment. it is nothing more than a mishmash of unsustainable pontifications.