,The Law of Life

[RyanC111]

Hello brothers and sisters,

It's interesting to note that every religion has a teaching/doctrine that it stands by and practices. The teachings have facets referred to as Principles or Laws.

With this in mind, looking at Matthew 5 Jesus clearly distinguishes the letter of the law of Moses (the 10 Commandments) with His Teaching. It is crucial for a believer to be able to discern the difference between the two (Romans 3:21).

2 Corinthians 3:6-10
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2 Corinthians 3:15-17
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; whichvail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

So, what should a Christian Believer be following? We should be following and obeying non other that Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:3 - For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Son in form of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

Galations 5:14 - For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:10 - Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore loveis the fulfilling of the law.

Love today! Because He Loves You!!! Hallelujah for JESUS CHRIST!!!

1 John 4:19 - We love him, because he first loved us.

John 3:16 - For GOD so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever shall believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting Life.

Romans 7 says that we need to become dead to the law and alive to GOD. There are many more Scriptures on this.

 

[Bob S]

Hello brothers and sisters,

It's interesting to note that every religion has a teaching/doctrine that it stands by and practices. The teachings have facets referred to as Principles or Laws.

With this in mind, looking at Matthew 5 Jesus clearly distinguishes the letter of the law of Moses (the 10 Commandments) with His Teaching. It is crucial for a believer to be able to discern the difference between the two (Romans 3:21).

2 Corinthians 3:6-10
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

2 Corinthians 3:15-17
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; whichvail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

So, what should a Christian Believer be following? We should be following and obeying non other that Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:3 - For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Son in form of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

Galations 5:14 - For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:10 - Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore loveis the fulfilling of the law.

Love today! Because He Loves You!!! Hallelujah for JESUS CHRIST!!!

1 John 4:19 - We love him, because he first loved us.

John 3:16 - For GOD so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever shall believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting Life.

Romans 7 says that we need to become dead to the law and alive to GOD. There are many more Scriptures on this.

Hi Ryan, welcome to this forum. Thanks for posting the truth. The plan of salvation is so simple and some make it so burdensome.

You wrote and I quote "It's interesting to note that every religion has a teaching/doctrine that it stands by and practices. The teachings have facets referred to as Principles or Laws." Are you referring to Christian sects or all the World religions such as Buddhism etc?

Christianity certainly has different methods and practices to brainwash people into believing certain things like Sabbath observance, "Christian" tithing, wearing certain kinds of clothes, the cutting of woman's hair and other things that have no bearing on our salvation.

 

[RyanC111]

I am including all religions. Every religion has some form of teaching they go by. Even if the teaching is to do whatever you want whenever you want; that, in my opinion, is a form of doctrine.

 

[Soyeong]

Hello brothers and sisters,

It's interesting to note that every religion has a teaching/doctrine that it stands by and practices. The teachings have facets referred to as Principles or Laws.

With this in mind, looking at Matthew 5 Jesus clearly distinguishes the letter of the law of Moses (the 10 Commandments) with His Teaching. It is crucial for a believer to be able to discern the difference between the two (Romans 3:21).

Hello,

When Jesus was quoting from the law, he said, "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the teachers of the law of his day were saying about the law he said, "you have heard it said". Jesus was about to teach to against what the teachers of the law were saying, which many of his audience might interpret as abolishing the law, which he preceded it by saying that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-19), and proceeded to fulfill the law six times by teaching how to correctly understand and obey the law. For example:

Matthew 5:43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

The law does say to love your neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), but it does not say to hate your enemy - that is what the teachers of the law of his day were saying about it, and what Jesus was correcting. Another example:

Matthew 5:27-28 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is not something new, but is the correct understanding of the 7th and 10th Commandments. If you lust after someone's wife, then you are coveting her in your heart, and committing adultery in your heart. So Jesus was not teaching anything new in Matthew 5, and was not distinguishing himself from the Ten Commandments or any of the other Laws of Moses, but was teaching how to correctly understand and obey them.

2 Corinthians 3:6-10
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Paul said that our faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31), that it is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and that he delighted in God's law. So do you think he uphold and delight in a ministry of death and consider it to be holy, righteous, and good? I think that what he upheld and delighted in was God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good and the ministry of death is in regard to what happens when we disobey God's instructions. As Moses said, he brought before them both a blessing and a curse: a blessing for obeying God's commands and a curse for disobeying them (Deuteronomy 11:26-28).

The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so the distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is not in regard to whether or not to obey the law, but in regard to the manner in which the law is obeyed, as is reflected in modern discussion about how to correctly interpret and obey modern laws. For example, someone who entertained lustful thoughts about someone's wife wouldn't not physically be committing adultery with her according to the letter of the 7th Commandment, but it would be violating the intent or spirit of the law and the spiritual understanding adultery. The law is spiritual so it was intended to teach us spiritual lessons that goes above and beyond what the law as written requires. Incidentally, when you keep the higher spiritual requirement, it necessarily includes keeping the lower requirements, just as never having lustful thoughts about someone's wife also necessarily includes not physically committing adultery with her. God's law is a tree of life when it is obeyed by the leading of the Spirit by faith and out of love, but it brings death when it is not obeyed or when it is obeyed legalistically not by faith in order to earn our justification.

2 Corinthians 3:15-17

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; whichvail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

So, what should a Christian Believer be following? We should be following and obeying non other that Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Christ gave us an example of how to walk in perfect obedience to the law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to obey his commands walk as he walked. Christianity is all about being made to be like Christ. Furthermore, these verses associate obeying Christ's commands with walking as he walked, so there is no distinction between what he commanded and what he lived out. The goal of a disciple was to learn how to think and act like their rabbi or to essentially become an imitation of them (1 Corinthians 11:1), and they taught by both word an example, which doesn't leave any room for their to be a disconnect between what a rabbi taught and how they lived out their lives.

The veil over their eyes is that they could read the Torah and not see that it was all about Messiah.

Romans 8:3 - For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Son in form of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

The law is holy, righteous, and good, but we could not meet its requirement because our sinful flesh prevented us from obeying it. So God made us so we could obey His law by sending His Son to die on the cross to pay our penalty for breaking the law and to set us free from lawlessness, and by sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) all so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:4).

Galations 5:14 - For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 13:10 - Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore loveis the fulfilling of the law.

Love today! Because He Loves You!!! Hallelujah for JESUS CHRIST!!!

Love fulfills the law because the law is essentially about how to love God and how to love your neighbor. Everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the whole law, so it was not a unique event done by Jesus to do away with the law, but rather it is the fullest expression of the law.

Romans 7 says that we need to become dead to the law and alive to GOD. There are many more Scriptures on this.

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul said he was speaking to those who knew the law, so he was using an example from the law to illustrate his point, not a metaphor where everything in it represents something else. We can not be represented by the woman because we are dying to the law and it is her husband that dies, and we can't be represented by the husband because it is the woman who is freed to get married to other. Rather, when the husband dies, the woman is not set free to commit murder, break the Sabbath, steal, etc., but rather she is only set free from the aspect of the law that would condemn her to death if she were to live with another man while her husband was still alive. If she were to get married to another man, then she would be back under the same law. Paul's point was that in the same way, we are set free from the aspect of the law that would condemn us for breaking it, which is the point that he was building to (Romans 8:1).

 

[RyanC111]

Hello,

When Jesus was quoting from the law, he said, "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the teachers of the law of his day were saying about the law he said, "you have heard it said". Jesus was about to teach to against what the teachers of the law were saying, which many of his audience might interpret as abolishing the law, which he preceded it by saying that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-19), and proceeded to fulfill the law six times by teaching how to correctly understand and obey the law. For example:

Matthew 5:43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

The law does say to love your neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), but it does not say to hate your enemy - that is what the teachers of the law of his day were saying about it, and what Jesus was correcting. Another example:

Matthew 5:27-28 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is not something new, but is the correct understanding of the 7th and 10th Commandments. If you lust after someone's wife, then you are coveting her in your heart, and committing adultery in your heart. So Jesus was not teaching anything new in Matthew 5, and was not distinguishing himself from the Ten Commandments or any of the other Laws of Moses, but was teaching how to correctly understand and obey them.



Paul said that our faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31), that it is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and that he delighted in God's law. So do you think he uphold and delight in a ministry of death and consider it to be holy, righteous, and good? I think that what he upheld and delighted in was God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good and the ministry of death is in regard to what happens when we disobey God's instructions. As Moses said, he brought before them both a blessing and a curse: a blessing for obeying God's commands and a curse for disobeying them (Deuteronomy 11:26-28).

The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so the distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is not in regard to whether or not to obey the law, but in regard to the manner in which the law is obeyed, as is reflected in modern discussion about how to correctly interpret and obey modern laws. For example, someone who entertained lustful thoughts about someone's wife wouldn't not physically be committing adultery with her according to the letter of the 7th Commandment, but it would be violating the intent or spirit of the law and the spiritual understanding adultery. The law is spiritual so it was intended to teach us spiritual lessons that goes above and beyond what the law as written requires. Incidentally, when you keep the higher spiritual requirement, it necessarily includes keeping the lower requirements, just as never having lustful thoughts about someone's wife also necessarily includes not physically committing adultery with her. God's law is a tree of life when it is obeyed by the leading of the Spirit by faith and out of love, but it brings death when it is not obeyed or when it is obeyed legalistically not by faith in order to earn our justification.



1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Christ gave us an example of how to walk in perfect obedience to the law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to obey his commands walk as he walked. Christianity is all about being made to be like Christ. Furthermore, these verses associate obeying Christ's commands with walking as he walked, so there is no distinction between what he commanded and what he lived out. The goal of a disciple was to learn how to think and act like their rabbi or to essentially become an imitation of them (1 Corinthians 11:1), and they taught by both word an example, which doesn't leave any room for their to be a disconnect between what a rabbi taught and how they lived out their lives.

The veil over their eyes is that they could read the Torah and not see that it was all about Messiah.



The law is holy, righteous, and good, but we could not meet its requirement because our sinful flesh prevented us from obeying it. So God made us so we could obey His law by sending His Son to die on the cross to pay our penalty for breaking the law and to set us free from lawlessness, and by sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) all so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:4).



Love fulfills the law because the law is essentially about how to love God and how to love your neighbor. Everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the whole law, so it was not a unique event done by Jesus to do away with the law, but rather it is the fullest expression of the law.



In Romans 7:1-6, Paul said he was speaking to those who knew the law, so he was using an example from the law to illustrate his point, not a metaphor where everything in it represents something else. We can not be represented by the woman because we are dying to the law and it is her husband that dies, and we can't be represented by the husband because it is the woman who is freed to get married to other. Rather, when the husband dies, the woman is not set free to commit murder, break the Sabbath, steal, etc., but rather she is only set free from the aspect of the law that would condemn her to death if she were to live with another man while her husband was still alive. If she were to get married to another man, then she would be back under the same law. Paul's point was that in the same way, we are set free from the aspect of the law that would condemn us for breaking it, which is the point that he was building to (Romans 8:1).

You have good insight in the Scriptures.

Even though the Law is good, it is still unprofitable and weak through the flesh (which we are/were) and it is written that whoever works the work of the law is under a curse! If we wish to attain to the righteousness of the Law we must die to written law according to Romans 7

 

[Soyeong]

You have good insight in the Scriptures.

If we wish to attain to the righteousness of the Law we

God has always been holy, righteous, and good, so He always has had such a conduct, and the law is holy, righteous, and good because it is a reflection of God's character and it is His instructions for how to have such a conduct. So the way to have such a conduct existed from the beginning, exists independently of any covenant, and did not change between any of God's covenants. Even if God had made no covenants with us, it would still be to our advantage to act in line with God's character and have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, but as part of the New Covenant we are also told to have such a conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

Obedience to God's law does not make us holy, righteous, or good, but rather it is how we are to live by faith, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4), or in other words, those who do what is righteous live by trusting God to lead them into doing what is righteous by obeying His law. So there is a difference between being declared righteous by faith, which is a right standing before God, and practicing or training in righteousness by faith, which is what those who are righteous and called by God to go out and do, just like Christ. Paul said that OT Scriptures, which principally includes God's law, is profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10), and practicing righteousness is what distinguishes between those who are children of the devil and those who are children of God (1 John 3:10). So we should be practicing righteousness, and in order to know how to do so we should follow God's instructions for how to do that in His law.

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Leviticus 19:2-3 “Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy. 3 Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.

Similarly, we are told to have a holy conduct and in order to figure out how to do that, we need to follow God's instructions in His law for how to do that, starting with where 1 Peter 1:16 is quoting from. Leviticus associates being holy as God is holy with keeping His holy days, and it really should be pretty straightforward that keeping God's holy days is part of what it means to have a holy conduct. Again, keeping God's holy days doesn't make us holy or more holy, but rather it is what someone whom God has made holy by faith is called by faith to do, just as we are told to be like Christ and follow his example by faith, which includes keeping God's holy days.

Even though the Law is good, it is still unprofitable and weak through the flesh (which we are/were) and it is written that whoever works the work of the law is under a curse!

So Paul thought the law was profitable (2 Timothy 3:16-17). He also thought the law was weakened by the flesh because the flesh prevented us from obeying it, but God can do what the law could not do by causing us to obey it (Romans 8:3-4). The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and it is those who have a carnal mind who do not submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).

Galatians 3:10-14 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

The phrase "works of the law" should actually be translated "works of law" because there is no definitive article in the Greek, and it is used to refer to any works of law and specifically not God's law, as Qumran Text 4QMMT shows. Essentially, various Jewish groups, such as the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes, had their own traditions or customs or works of law that they that people had to obey in order to be saved. For example, Acts 10:28 refers to it being against their law to visit or associate with Gentiles, the group in Acts 15:1 was wanting to require all Gentiles to follow their customs in order to be saved, and this is the same issue that Paul was arguing against in Galatians. He contrasted the works of the law with the Book of the Law, which is God's Law, because God's Law speaks about faith, and relying on man-made traditions does not involve faith, so by doing so they were breaking the Book of the Law and were under a curse. We should not rely on the Book of the Law either, but rather it is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law so that we would be free from condemnation and to follow his example of doing what is righteous by faith in accordance with the law.

must die to written law according to Romans 7

Again, dying to the law did not refer to the status of being free from having to obey the law, just as the woman was not set free to disobey any of God's laws, but rather dying to the law refers to the status of being free from its penalty for disobedience. Sin is the violation of God's law (1 John 3:4) and Paul made it clear that no being under the law doesn't mean we are free to sin (Romans 6:15), so we are still to obey it. In any case, we died to the law, but we did not stay dead, but rose with Christ in newness life. The point Paul was making is that there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1). However, those who are in Christ are those who follow his commands and walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), which is again in obedience to the law. Christ was not in disagreement with the Father or the Spirit about which conduct we should have, but rather he said he came to do only the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so the law of Christ is the same as the law of the Spirit, which is the same thing as the law of the Father, which was what was given to Moses.

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Theses verses are saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable will twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness. The bottom line is that it can be hard to understand Paul, but anyone misinterprets him as being against keeping God's law has fallen into error. The truth is that he upheld God's law (Romans 3:31) and delighted in it (Romans 7:22), just as David did (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 19, Psalms 119), and just as we should.

 

[Bob S]

God has always been holy, righteous, and good, so He always has had such a conduct, and the law is holy, righteous, and good because it is a reflection of God's character and it is His instructions for how to have such a conduct. So the way to have such a conduct existed from the beginning, exists independently of any covenant, and did not change between any of God's covenants. Even if God had made no covenants with us, it would still be to our advantage to act in line with God's character and have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, but as part of the New Covenant we are also told to have such a conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

Obedience to God's law does not make us holy, righteous, or good, but rather it is how we are to live by faith, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4), or in other words, those who do what is righteous live by trusting God to lead them into doing what is righteous by obeying His law. So there is a difference between being declared righteous by faith, which is a right standing before God, and practicing or training in righteousness by faith, which is what those who are righteous and called by God to go out and do, just like Christ. Paul said that OT Scriptures, which principally includes God's law, is profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10), and practicing righteousness is what distinguishes between those who are children of the devil and those who are children of God (1 John 3:10). So we should be practicing righteousness, and in order to know how to do so we should follow God's instructions for how to do that in His law.

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Leviticus 19:2-3 “Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy. 3 Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.

Similarly, we are told to have a holy conduct and in order to figure out how to do that, we need to follow God's instructions in His law for how to do that, starting with where 1 Peter 1:16 is quoting from. Leviticus associates being holy as God is holy with keeping His holy days, and it really should be pretty straightforward that keeping God's holy days is part of what it means to have a holy conduct. Again, keeping God's holy days doesn't make us holy or more holy, but rather it is what someone whom God has made holy by faith is called by faith to do, just as we are told to be like Christ and follow his example by faith, which includes keeping God's holy days.



So Paul thought the law was profitable (2 Timothy 3:16-17). He also thought the law was weakened by the flesh because the flesh prevented us from obeying it, but God can do what the law could not do by causing us to obey it (Romans 8:3-4). The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and it is those who have a carnal mind who do not submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).

Galatians 3:10-14 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

The phrase "works of the law" should actually be translated "works of law" because there is no definitive article in the Greek, and it is used to refer to any works of law and specifically not God's law, as Qumran Text 4QMMT shows. Essentially, various Jewish groups, such as the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes, had their own traditions or customs or works of law that they that people had to obey in order to be saved. For example, Acts 10:28 refers to it being against their law to visit or associate with Gentiles, the group in Acts 15:1 was wanting to require all Gentiles to follow their customs in order to be saved, and this is the same issue that Paul was arguing against in Galatians. He contrasted the works of the law with the Book of the Law, which is God's Law, because God's Law speaks about faith, and relying on man-made traditions does not involve faith, so by doing so they were breaking the Book of the Law and were under a curse. We should not rely on the Book of the Law either, but rather it is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law so that we would be free from condemnation and to follow his example of doing what is righteous by faith in accordance with the law.



Again, dying to the law did not refer to the status of being free from having to obey the law, just as the woman was not set free to disobey any of God's laws, but rather dying to the law refers to the status of being free from its penalty for disobedience. Sin is the violation of God's law (1 John 3:4) and Paul made it clear that no being under the law doesn't mean we are free to sin (Romans 6:15), so we are still to obey it. In any case, we died to the law, but we did not stay dead, but rose with Christ in newness life. The point Paul was making is that there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1). However, those who are in Christ are those who follow his commands and walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), which is again in obedience to the law. Christ was not in disagreement with the Father or the Spirit about which conduct we should have, but rather he said he came to do only the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so the law of Christ is the same as the law of the Spirit, which is the same thing as the law of the Father, which was what was given to Moses.

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Theses verses are saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable will twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness. The bottom line is that it can be hard to understand Paul, but anyone misinterprets him as being against keeping God's law has fallen into error. The truth is that he upheld God's law (Romans 3:31) and delighted in it (Romans 7:22), just as David did (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 19, Psalms 119), and just as we should.

All your deciphering of scripture to try to make what you believe be kosher does not negate the writings of the Apostle Paul in 2Cor3:7-11. When Jesus died on the Cross the system of the nation of Israel died right along with Him and a new system called the new covenant immediately began. I know what Jesus meant when He said I have kept my Father's commandments and asked us to keep His. His new commandment is to love others as I have loved you. Simple isn't it. Maybe you should ask yourself why Jesus made the new law so simple. I will give you a hint, the Jews failed to keep the old complicated law from Sinai so what happened?

All you are doing in your religion is beating a dead horse. That phase of history has passed and now all it is is great history as far as our salvation is concerned

 

[BobRyan]

Hello brothers and sisters,

It's interesting to note that every religion has a teaching/doctrine that it stands by and practices. The teachings have facets referred to as Principles or Laws.

With this in mind, looking at Matthew 5 Jesus clearly distinguishes the letter of the law of Moses (the 10 Commandments) with His Teaching.

Indeed he argues that His direction is to be even more restrictive - even more - all encompassing, even more authoritative ... never "less".

Just as we see in his Mark 7:6-13 teaching - that also shows how His doctrine affirms scripture as God gave it to Moses.

Christ said

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Ten Commandments -- "The Word of God" -- "The Commandment of God" - "Moses Said"

Matt 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’
‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’
‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

 

[Soyeong]

All your deciphering of scripture to try to make what you believe be kosher does not negate the writings of the Apostle Paul in 2Cor3:7-11. When Jesus died on the Cross the system of the nation of Israel died right along with Him and a new system called the new covenant immediately began.

Again, God's law is based on His holy, righteous, and good character, which is independent of any covenant. Saying that God's law for how to do act in line with His character has been done away with is like saying that His character has been done away with. What was nailed to crosses were the charges against someone or the violations of the law that they had committed, not the system of laws itself. In other words, they didn't have to legislate new laws every time someone was crucified. Our violations of God's law were nailed to his cross and he died in our place to free us from the penalty of sin and to free us from the law of sin and death, which is the opposite of God's law. We were freed from lawlessness for the purpose of being made lawful, not so that we could be free to be lawless. Furthermore, the New Covenant involves God writing his law on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and us being told to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10), which is in perfect accordance with God's law.

I do not seek to negate what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:7-11, only to correctly understand what he said in the context of other things that he said about the law and in the broader context with the rest of the Bible. However, 2 Peter 3:15-17 says that Paul is difficult to understand, but that people twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness, so we should not misunderstand Paul as supporting lawlessness. Any interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 that has Paul seeking against God's holy, righteous, and good law is wrong. Furthermore, we must obey God rather than man, so if God said to do something and Paul said not to do it, then we should obey God instead of Paul, but it doesn't come down to that because the correct interpretation of Paul was that he fully upheld God's law by faith (Romans 3:31).

I know what Jesus meant when He said I have kept my Father's commandments and asked us to keep His. His new commandment is to love others as I have loved you. Simple isn't it. Maybe you should ask yourself why Jesus made the new law so simple. I will give you a hint, the Jews failed to keep the old complicated law from Sinai so what happened?

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

There is nothing brand new about Christ's command because it is found in Leviticus 19:18, but what is new is the quality of the example of how to obey the command, and indeed the Greek word used refers to newness in regard to quality rather than in regard to time. Jesus did not teach anything brand new, but only taught what the Father had taught (John 7:16), and was giving us an perfect example to follow of how to love others through obedience to the law. It's easy to say that we should love others, but it is more difficult to explain how God wants us to love others, so thankfully God gave us many other commands as examples for how we should do that, and Jesus gave a perfect example of how to obey the law, which we are told to follow (1 Peter 2:21-22).

God said that His law was not too difficult (Deuteronomy 30:11), and Jesus said that God's commands were not burdensome (1 John 5:3) and that his yoke was easy and his burden was light (Matthew 11:28-30), so the problem was not with its difficulty or complexity, but rather the problem was that our sinful flesh prevented us from obeying it and meeting its righteous requirement. So God solved this problem by sending His Son to pay our penalty for breaking God's law and to set us free from lawlessness and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) so that we might meet it righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4).

Furthermore, if you think that Jesus taught different commands than what the Father taught, then you are saying that He was in disagreement with the Father, that he did not act according the Father's will, and that he was a false prophet who taught against obeying God's commands (Deuteronomy 13:4-6).

All you are doing in your religion is beating a dead horse. That phase of history has passed and now all it is is great history as far as our salvation is concerned

All I'm doing is saying that followers of God should follow His commands and followers of Jesus should follow his example.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

God has always been holy, righteous, and good, so He always has had such a conduct, and the law is holy, righteous, and good because it is a reflection of God's character and it is His instructions for how to have such a conduct. So the way to have such a conduct existed from the beginning, exists independently of any covenant, and did not change between any of God's covenants. Even if God had made no covenants with us, it would still be to our advantage to act in line with God's character and have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, but as part of the New Covenant we are also told to have such a conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

Obedience to God's law does not make us holy, righteous, or good, but rather it is how we are to live by faith, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4), or in other words, those who do what is righteous live by trusting God to lead them into doing what is righteous by obeying His law. So there is a difference between being declared righteous by faith, which is a right standing before God, and practicing or training in righteousness by faith, which is what those who are righteous and called by God to go out and do, just like Christ. Paul said that OT Scriptures, which principally includes God's law, is profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10), and practicing righteousness is what distinguishes between those who are children of the devil and those who are children of God (1 John 3:10). So we should be practicing righteousness, and in order to know how to do so we should follow God's instructions for how to do that in His law.

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Leviticus 19:2-3 “Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy. 3 Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.

Similarly, we are told to have a holy conduct and in order to figure out how to do that, we need to follow God's instructions in His law for how to do that, starting with where 1 Peter 1:16 is quoting from. Leviticus associates being holy as God is holy with keeping His holy days, and it really should be pretty straightforward that keeping God's holy days is part of what it means to have a holy conduct. Again, keeping God's holy days doesn't make us holy or more holy, but rather it is what someone whom God has made holy by faith is called by faith to do, just as we are told to be like Christ and follow his example by faith, which includes keeping God's holy days.



So Paul thought the law was profitable (2 Timothy 3:16-17). He also thought the law was weakened by the flesh because the flesh prevented us from obeying it, but God can do what the law could not do by causing us to obey it (Romans 8:3-4). The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and it is those who have a carnal mind who do not submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).

Galatians 3:10-14 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

The phrase "works of the law" should actually be translated "works of law" because there is no definitive article in the Greek, and it is used to refer to any works of law and specifically not God's law, as Qumran Text 4QMMT shows. Essentially, various Jewish groups, such as the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes, had their own traditions or customs or works of law that they that people had to obey in order to be saved. For example, Acts 10:28 refers to it being against their law to visit or associate with Gentiles, the group in Acts 15:1 was wanting to require all Gentiles to follow their customs in order to be saved, and this is the same issue that Paul was arguing against in Galatians. He contrasted the works of the law with the Book of the Law, which is God's Law, because God's Law speaks about faith, and relying on man-made traditions does not involve faith, so by doing so they were breaking the Book of the Law and were under a curse. We should not rely on the Book of the Law either, but rather it is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law so that we would be free from condemnation and to follow his example of doing what is righteous by faith in accordance with the law.



Again, dying to the law did not refer to the status of being free from having to obey the law, just as the woman was not set free to disobey any of God's laws, but rather dying to the law refers to the status of being free from its penalty for disobedience. Sin is the violation of God's law (1 John 3:4) and Paul made it clear that no being under the law doesn't mean we are free to sin (Romans 6:15), so we are still to obey it. In any case, we died to the law, but we did not stay dead, but rose with Christ in newness life. The point Paul was making is that there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1). However, those who are in Christ are those who follow his commands and walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), which is again in obedience to the law. Christ was not in disagreement with the Father or the Spirit about which conduct we should have, but rather he said he came to do only the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so the law of Christ is the same as the law of the Spirit, which is the same thing as the law of the Father, which was what was given to Moses.

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Theses verses are saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable will twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness. The bottom line is that it can be hard to understand Paul, but anyone misinterprets him as being against keeping God's law has fallen into error. The truth is that he upheld God's law (Romans 3:31) and delighted in it (Romans 7:22), just as David did (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 19, Psalms 119), and just as we should.

Very well said!

 

[bugkiller]

Hello,

When Jesus was quoting from the law, he said, "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the teachers of the law of his day were saying about the law he said, "you have heard it said". Jesus was about to teach to against what the teachers of the law were saying, which many of his audience might interpret as abolishing the law, which he preceded it by saying that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-19), and proceeded to fulfill the law six times by teaching how to correctly understand and obey the law. For example:

Matthew 5:43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

The law does say to love your neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), but it does not say to hate your enemy - that is what the teachers of the law of his day were saying about it, and what Jesus was correcting. Another example:

Matthew 5:27-28 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is not something new, but is the correct understanding of the 7th and 10th Commandments. If you lust after someone's wife, then you are coveting her in your heart, and committing adultery in your heart. So Jesus was not teaching anything new in Matthew 5, and was not distinguishing himself from the Ten Commandments or any of the other Laws of Moses, but was teaching how to correctly understand and obey them.



Paul said that our faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31), that it is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), and that he delighted in God's law. So do you think he uphold and delight in a ministry of death and consider it to be holy, righteous, and good? I think that what he upheld and delighted in was God's instructions for how to do what is holy, righteous, and good and the ministry of death is in regard to what happens when we disobey God's instructions. As Moses said, he brought before them both a blessing and a curse: a blessing for obeying God's commands and a curse for disobeying them (Deuteronomy 11:26-28).

The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so the distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is not in regard to whether or not to obey the law, but in regard to the manner in which the law is obeyed, as is reflected in modern discussion about how to correctly interpret and obey modern laws. For example, someone who entertained lustful thoughts about someone's wife wouldn't not physically be committing adultery with her according to the letter of the 7th Commandment, but it would be violating the intent or spirit of the law and the spiritual understanding adultery. The law is spiritual so it was intended to teach us spiritual lessons that goes above and beyond what the law as written requires. Incidentally, when you keep the higher spiritual requirement, it necessarily includes keeping the lower requirements, just as never having lustful thoughts about someone's wife also necessarily includes not physically committing adultery with her. God's law is a tree of life when it is obeyed by the leading of the Spirit by faith and out of love, but it brings death when it is not obeyed or when it is obeyed legalistically not by faith in order to earn our justification.



1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Christ gave us an example of how to walk in perfect obedience to the law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to obey his commands walk as he walked. Christianity is all about being made to be like Christ. Furthermore, these verses associate obeying Christ's commands with walking as he walked, so there is no distinction between what he commanded and what he lived out. The goal of a disciple was to learn how to think and act like their rabbi or to essentially become an imitation of them (1 Corinthians 11:1), and they taught by both word an example, which doesn't leave any room for their to be a disconnect between what a rabbi taught and how they lived out their lives.

The veil over their eyes is that they could read the Torah and not see that it was all about Messiah.



The law is holy, righteous, and good, but we could not meet its requirement because our sinful flesh prevented us from obeying it. So God made us so we could obey His law by sending His Son to die on the cross to pay our penalty for breaking the law and to set us free from lawlessness, and by sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) all so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:4).



Love fulfills the law because the law is essentially about how to love God and how to love your neighbor. Everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the whole law, so it was not a unique event done by Jesus to do away with the law, but rather it is the fullest expression of the law.



In Romans 7:1-6, Paul said he was speaking to those who knew the law, so he was using an example from the law to illustrate his point, not a metaphor where everything in it represents something else. We can not be represented by the woman because we are dying to the law and it is her husband that dies, and we can't be represented by the husband because it is the woman who is freed to get married to other. Rather, when the husband dies, the woman is not set free to commit murder, break the Sabbath, steal, etc., but rather she is only set free from the aspect of the law that would condemn her to death if she were to live with another man while her husband was still alive. If she were to get married to another man, then she would be back under the same law. Paul's point was that in the same way, we are set free from the aspect of the law that would condemn us for breaking it, which is the point that he was building to (Romans 8:1).

So why make love to a dead husband while you're supposedly making love with Jesus (NC)? I just don't understand why anyone would want to hang on to a relationship with a dead spouce while having a live spouce (married to another).

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

God has always been holy, righteous, and good, so He always has had such a conduct, and the law is holy, righteous, and good because it is a reflection of God's character and it is His instructions for how to have such a conduct. So the way to have such a conduct existed from the beginning, exists independently of any covenant, and did not change between any of God's covenants. Even if God had made no covenants with us, it would still be to our advantage to act in line with God's character and have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, but as part of the New Covenant we are also told to have such a conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

Obedience to God's law does not make us holy, righteous, or good, but rather it is how we are to live by faith, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4), or in other words, those who do what is righteous live by trusting God to lead them into doing what is righteous by obeying His law. So there is a difference between being declared righteous by faith, which is a right standing before God, and practicing or training in righteousness by faith, which is what those who are righteous and called by God to go out and do, just like Christ. Paul said that OT Scriptures, which principally includes God's law, is profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10), and practicing righteousness is what distinguishes between those who are children of the devil and those who are children of God (1 John 3:10). So we should be practicing righteousness, and in order to know how to do so we should follow God's instructions for how to do that in His law.

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Leviticus 19:2-3 “Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy. 3 Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.

Similarly, we are told to have a holy conduct and in order to figure out how to do that, we need to follow God's instructions in His law for how to do that, starting with where 1 Peter 1:16 is quoting from. Leviticus associates being holy as God is holy with keeping His holy days, and it really should be pretty straightforward that keeping God's holy days is part of what it means to have a holy conduct. Again, keeping God's holy days doesn't make us holy or more holy, but rather it is what someone whom God has made holy by faith is called by faith to do, just as we are told to be like Christ and follow his example by faith, which includes keeping God's holy days.



So Paul thought the law was profitable (2 Timothy 3:16-17). He also thought the law was weakened by the flesh because the flesh prevented us from obeying it, but God can do what the law could not do by causing us to obey it (Romans 8:3-4). The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and it is those who have a carnal mind who do not submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).

Galatians 3:10-14 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

The phrase "works of the law" should actually be translated "works of law" because there is no definitive article in the Greek, and it is used to refer to any works of law and specifically not God's law, as Qumran Text 4QMMT shows. Essentially, various Jewish groups, such as the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes, had their own traditions or customs or works of law that they that people had to obey in order to be saved. For example, Acts 10:28 refers to it being against their law to visit or associate with Gentiles, the group in Acts 15:1 was wanting to require all Gentiles to follow their customs in order to be saved, and this is the same issue that Paul was arguing against in Galatians. He contrasted the works of the law with the Book of the Law, which is God's Law, because God's Law speaks about faith, and relying on man-made traditions does not involve faith, so by doing so they were breaking the Book of the Law and were under a curse. We should not rely on the Book of the Law either, but rather it is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law so that we would be free from condemnation and to follow his example of doing what is righteous by faith in accordance with the law.



Again, dying to the law did not refer to the status of being free from having to obey the law, just as the woman was not set free to disobey any of God's laws, but rather dying to the law refers to the status of being free from its penalty for disobedience. Sin is the violation of God's law (1 John 3:4) and Paul made it clear that no being under the law doesn't mean we are free to sin (Romans 6:15), so we are still to obey it. In any case, we died to the law, but we did not stay dead, but rose with Christ in newness life. The point Paul was making is that there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1). However, those who are in Christ are those who follow his commands and walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), which is again in obedience to the law. Christ was not in disagreement with the Father or the Spirit about which conduct we should have, but rather he said he came to do only the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so the law of Christ is the same as the law of the Spirit, which is the same thing as the law of the Father, which was what was given to Moses.

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Theses verses are saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable will twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness. The bottom line is that it can be hard to understand Paul, but anyone misinterprets him as being against keeping God's law has fallen into error. The truth is that he upheld God's law (Romans 3:31) and delighted in it (Romans 7:22), just as David did (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 19, Psalms 119), and just as we should.

Your post is way to long to reply to it and I'm tired of thsi kind of bull slinging.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Indeed he argues that His direction is to be even more restrictive - even more - all encompassing, even more authoritative ... never "less".

Just as we see in his Mark 7:6-13 teaching - that also shows how His doctrine affirms scripture as God gave it to Moses.

Christ said

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Ten Commandments -- "The Word of God" -- "The Commandment of God" - "Moses Said"

Matt 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said,
“‘You shall not murder,’
‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’
‘You shall not bear false witness,’
19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Hey Bob can you make that a little larger so we can see it?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

God has always been holy, righteous, and good, so He always has had such a conduct, and the law is holy, righteous, and good because it is a reflection of God's character and it is His instructions for how to have such a conduct. So the way to have such a conduct existed from the beginning, exists independently of any covenant, and did not change between any of God's covenants. Even if God had made no covenants with us, it would still be to our advantage to act in line with God's character and have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, but as part of the New Covenant we are also told to have such a conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

Obedience to God's law does not make us holy, righteous, or good, but rather it is how we are to live by faith, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4), or in other words, those who do what is righteous live by trusting God to lead them into doing what is righteous by obeying His law. So there is a difference between being declared righteous by faith, which is a right standing before God, and practicing or training in righteousness by faith, which is what those who are righteous and called by God to go out and do, just like Christ. Paul said that OT Scriptures, which principally includes God's law, is profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10), and practicing righteousness is what distinguishes between those who are children of the devil and those who are children of God (1 John 3:10). So we should be practicing righteousness, and in order to know how to do so we should follow God's instructions for how to do that in His law.

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Leviticus 19:2-3 “Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy. 3 Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my Sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.

Similarly, we are told to have a holy conduct and in order to figure out how to do that, we need to follow God's instructions in His law for how to do that, starting with where 1 Peter 1:16 is quoting from. Leviticus associates being holy as God is holy with keeping His holy days, and it really should be pretty straightforward that keeping God's holy days is part of what it means to have a holy conduct. Again, keeping God's holy days doesn't make us holy or more holy, but rather it is what someone whom God has made holy by faith is called by faith to do, just as we are told to be like Christ and follow his example by faith, which includes keeping God's holy days.



So Paul thought the law was profitable (2 Timothy 3:16-17). He also thought the law was weakened by the flesh because the flesh prevented us from obeying it, but God can do what the law could not do by causing us to obey it (Romans 8:3-4). The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and it is those who have a carnal mind who do not submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).

Galatians 3:10-14 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

The phrase "works of the law" should actually be translated "works of law" because there is no definitive article in the Greek, and it is used to refer to any works of law and specifically not God's law, as Qumran Text 4QMMT shows. Essentially, various Jewish groups, such as the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes, had their own traditions or customs or works of law that they that people had to obey in order to be saved. For example, Acts 10:28 refers to it being against their law to visit or associate with Gentiles, the group in Acts 15:1 was wanting to require all Gentiles to follow their customs in order to be saved, and this is the same issue that Paul was arguing against in Galatians. He contrasted the works of the law with the Book of the Law, which is God's Law, because God's Law speaks about faith, and relying on man-made traditions does not involve faith, so by doing so they were breaking the Book of the Law and were under a curse. We should not rely on the Book of the Law either, but rather it is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law so that we would be free from condemnation and to follow his example of doing what is righteous by faith in accordance with the law.



Again, dying to the law did not refer to the status of being free from having to obey the law, just as the woman was not set free to disobey any of God's laws, but rather dying to the law refers to the status of being free from its penalty for disobedience. Sin is the violation of God's law (1 John 3:4) and Paul made it clear that no being under the law doesn't mean we are free to sin (Romans 6:15), so we are still to obey it. In any case, we died to the law, but we did not stay dead, but rose with Christ in newness life. The point Paul was making is that there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1). However, those who are in Christ are those who follow his commands and walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6), which is again in obedience to the law. Christ was not in disagreement with the Father or the Spirit about which conduct we should have, but rather he said he came to do only the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so the law of Christ is the same as the law of the Spirit, which is the same thing as the law of the Father, which was what was given to Moses.

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Theses verses are saying that Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable will twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness. The bottom line is that it can be hard to understand Paul, but anyone misinterprets him as being against keeping God's law has fallen into error. The truth is that he upheld God's law (Romans 3:31) and delighted in it (Romans 7:22), just as David did (Psalms 1:1-2, Psalms 19, Psalms 119), and just as we should.

Well said - thanks for posting that.

 

[bugkiller]

Again, God's law is based on His holy, righteous, and good character, which is independent of any covenant. Saying that God's law for how to do act in line with His character has been done away with is like saying that His character has been done away with. What was nailed to crosses were the charges against someone or the violations of the law that they had committed, not the system of laws itself. In other words, they didn't have to legislate new laws every time someone was crucified. Our violations of God's law were nailed to his cross and he died in our place to free us from the penalty of sin and to free us from the law of sin and death, which is the opposite of God's law. We were freed from lawlessness for the purpose of being made lawful, not so that we could be free to be lawless. Furthermore, the New Covenant involves God writing his law on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and us being told to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10), which is in perfect accordance with God's law.

I do not seek to negate what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:7-11, only to correctly understand what he said in the context of other things that he said about the law and in the broader context with the rest of the Bible. However, 2 Peter 3:15-17 says that Paul is difficult to understand, but that people twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness, so we should not misunderstand Paul as supporting lawlessness. Any interpretation of 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 that has Paul seeking against God's holy, righteous, and good law is wrong. Furthermore, we must obey God rather than man, so if God said to do something and Paul said not to do it, then we should obey God instead of Paul, but it doesn't come down to that because the correct interpretation of Paul was that he fully upheld God's law by faith (Romans 3:31).



Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

There is nothing brand new about Christ's command because it is found in Leviticus 19:18, but what is new is the quality of the example of how to obey the command, and indeed the Greek word used refers to newness in regard to quality rather than in regard to time. Jesus did not teach anything brand new, but only taught what the Father had taught (John 7:16), and was giving us an perfect example to follow of how to love others through obedience to the law. It's easy to say that we should love others, but it is more difficult to explain how God wants us to love others, so thankfully God gave us many other commands as examples for how we should do that, and Jesus gave a perfect example of how to obey the law, which we are told to follow (1 Peter 2:21-22).

God said that His law was not too difficult (Deuteronomy 30:11), and Jesus said that God's commands were not burdensome (1 John 5:3) and that his yoke was easy and his burden was light (Matthew 11:28-30), so the problem was not with its difficulty or complexity, but rather the problem was that our sinful flesh prevented us from obeying it and meeting its righteous requirement. So God solved this problem by sending His Son to pay our penalty for breaking God's law and to set us free from lawlessness and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) so that we might meet it righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4).

Furthermore, if you think that Jesus taught different commands than what the Father taught, then you are saying that He was in disagreement with the Father, that he did not act according the Father's will, and that he was a false prophet who taught against obeying God's commands (Deuteronomy 13:4-6).



All I'm doing is saying that followers of God should follow His commands and followers of Jesus should follow his example.

What exactly is thise great lawlessness you seem to claim we fall into?

bugkiller

 

[Soyeong]

So why make love to a dead husband while you're supposedly making love with Jesus (NC)? I just don't understand why anyone would want to hang on to a relationship with a dead spouce while having a live spouce (married to another).

bugkiller

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul said he was speaking to those who knew the law, so he was using an example from the law to illustrate his point, not a metaphor where everything in it represents something else. We can not be represented by the woman because we are dying to the law and it is her husband that dies, and we can't be represented by the husband because it is the woman who is freed to get married to other. Rather, when the husband dies, the woman is not set free to commit murder, break the Sabbath, steal, etc., but rather she is only set free from the aspect of the law that would condemn her to death if she were to live with another man while her husband was still alive. If she were to get married to another man, then she would be back under the same law. Paul's point was that in the same way, we are set free from the aspect of the law that would condemn us for breaking it, which is the point that he was building to (Romans 8:1).

What exactly is thise great lawlessness you seem to claim we fall into?

To the extent that you do not practice obedience to God's law you practice lawlessness.