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Where is a "6000 year old earth" found in scripture?

Riberra

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You have gone way outside of the written Word and written histories of the Patriarchs and have no foundation for your myth.
Cain was afraid of the Watchers [Daniel chapter 4 and the Book of Enoch tells of their duties, plus Psalm 82, in the Hebrew, and Gabriel and Michael and Raphael and Uriel and 3 others are named as chief watchers, in Enoch and in Orthodox Bibles.
The Watcher angels are the judges [Hebrew, "the Dan"], and princes who rule over earth for God, since the fall, who do justice and avenge for blood. Abel prophesied [Abel was a prophet, says Jesus, because the histories of the Jews tell us Abel's prophecy] that God would avenge his blood if Cain killed him. Cain did kill him. Cain then feared the avengers of blood, the Judges over earth, and God gave him a promise [a token is a promise] that the avengers of blood would not kill him. Cain did not dwell in Eden, where his father and mother were driven out/ divorced/cut off, from the Spirit of the Father of Glory -and they had no children in Eden.
Any children born of the first father and mother are defiled, for our flesh is irrevocably defiled in Adam and our souls are unclean and our spirit is dead, in Adam, to the Father of Glory, since the fall.
We are all Adam, in the Word of God. that is what God named us, which means earth blood, from adamah, and dam.

Cain was a MARRIED farmer WHEN he killed Abel, and Abel was a sheepherder with his own land.
Cain went wandering/nod, in the land, which is WRONGLY translated land of Nod, and he had no access to the borders/gates of Eden where the border sacrifices were offered
What do you mean by in the land ?Do you mean inside the limits of the Garden ?

The Sciptures say - And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord,and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the EAST of Eden.

Genesis 4:16
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

-Can you back up with the Scriptures your claim that Cain was a MARRIED farmer WHEN he killed Abel ?

-Edited to shorten the text for clarity.-
 
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yeshuasavedme

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What do you mean by in the land ?Do you mean inside the limits of the Garden ?

The Sciptures say - And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord,and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the EAST of Eden.

Genesis 4:16
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

-Can you back up with the Scriptures your claim that Cain was a MARRIED farmer WHEN he killed Abel ?

-Edited to shorten the text for clarity.-
You will find details of Cain and Abel in the history book called the Real Book of Jasher [Book of the Upright]: that is where Abel's prophecy is given about God avenging his blood if Cain killed him, which Jesus confirmed. Yes, Cain was married, for he took his wife with him when he went wandering and stopped tilling the earth.

The Hebrew says Cain went wandering in the land -he branched out eastward of Eden's entry. There was a gate, as the Word says, and that is where the sacrifice was offered....the tabernacle Moses made, copied the fact of the closed place where God's glory dwells. Cain did not settle down for a long time, but he did finally settle and built a city and did not wander anymore.

Only the Adam male and the Adam female were in Eden when the tempter tempted Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil [and the Watcher angels were there, and still are, except for those who have fallen and are chained in Sheol below earth].
There were no children yet, in Eden, in Paradise, and certainly no tilling the ground there, as the Word says. Tilling the ground was the curse of being cast down and out of Paradise, where the labor was "God's rest". Get a concordance and look up the Hebrew and see what the plain words do say.
Paradise is in the third heaven, and access was denied at the gate to the entire Adam race by the two cherubim with the flaming swords turning every way after the male and the female were driven out [divorced]. The gate of entry could be visited, and there sacrifices were offered. The tabernacle Moses built was patterened after the things in heaven, and the veil of the Holies represents the closing off of the place the Adam race lost entry into, when our first father fell and was cast down and out of Paradise.

After the tower affair with Nimrod & Co, there was no more going to the gate, for no Adam could even find it, for looking, just like the angels blinded the eyes of the Sodomites who could not find Lot's door to enter his house all night long....
in the millennial reign, that veil will be removed, and there will also be going in and out of that place by the saints, but the only ones who do that will be transformed to the glory bodies.
The ancient Chinese border sacrifice mirrors the sacrifice brought to the garden gate after the fall...look it up. all nations once knew God and all Noah's sons who came off that ark knew about sacrifice, and how and why to offer it.


Adam taught his sons sacrifice, and they were offering sacrifice on a designated day in the designated way when Cain brought that which he grew out of the ground by the sweat of his brow in tilling the land.
There was no tilling the ground in Paradise. That was the curse put on the Adam race when the firstborn son of God of the human being kind died/fell in spirit and was divorced/cur off from the presence of the Glory in Paradise, and no Adam person could enter and eat of the Tree of Life lest they then be made by that forever undying worms only fit for the L:ake of Fire as rejects.

When Cain and Abel brought their sacrifices to the gate of Eden's entry, on earth below, Cain brought inferior fruit, and his sacrifice was not accepted.
Abel was a sheepherder and brought the best of his flock to offer in sacrifice. The sacrifices were taught to Adam by God the Word, and Adam taught his sons after him....Noah took sacrificiallly clean animals on board the Ark by seven pairs, because sacrifices were taught to the race of Adam at the fall, to teach about the need for the promised redemption to come, in the fullness of time.

The entire Adam race is unclean to enter Paradise and eat of the Tree of Life without the change.
Adam and Eve did not have children when the two were driven out of Paradise above.
That is what the Word teaches us.

just like Abraham taught his sons, etc...
 
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Riberra

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You will find details of Cain and Abel in the history book called the Real Book of Jasher .
It is no wonder why you are so confuse you don't get your source from the Word of God metionned in Genesis 4 but from a an 18th-century literary forgery falsely represented -as being- the Lost Book of Jasher mentioned in the Bible....


Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jasher_(Pseudo-Jasher)

The Book of Jasher, also called Pseudo-Jasher, is an 18th-century literary forgery by Jacob Ilive.[1] It purports to be an English translation by Flaccus Albinus Alcuinus of the lost Book of Jasher. It is sometimes called Pseudo-Jasher to distinguish it from the midrashic Sefer haYashar (Book of the Upright, Naples, 1552), which incorporates genuine Jewish legend.

Published in November 1751, the title page of the book says: "translated into English by Flaccus Albinus Alcuinus, of Britain, Abbot of Canterbury, who went on a pilgrimage into the Holy Land and Persia, where he discovered this volume in the city of Gazna." The book claims to be written by Jasher, son of Caleb, one of Moses' lieutenants, who later judged Israel at Shiloh. Jasher covers biblical history from the creation down to Jasher's own day and was represented as being the Lost Book of Jasher mentioned in the Bible.

Only the Adam male and the Adam female were in Eden when the tempter tempted Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ...There were no children yet, in Eden,
True ...but do you know that the -serpent- was Satan ?
Genesis 3
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Sorry, Riberra, but your pseudo Jasher is not the "Real Book of the Upright", and if you really do your own research you'd find it out.
Your doctrine is absolutely not found anywhere in the Torah or any of the ancient Jewish writings such as are in the DSS, and other places.

The "real book of Jasher"
http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/real.htm
 
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Riberra

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Sorry, Riberra, but your pseudo Jasher is not the "Real Book of the Upright", and if you really do your own research you'd find it out.
http://www.gotquestions.org/book-of-Jasher.html

The question is, if the Book of Jasher is mentioned in the Bible, why was it left out of the canon of Scripture?

Do you consider the Talmud which come from the Jewish Rabbinic Judaism trandition as being the Word of God?

yeshuasavedme[/quote said:
Your doctrine is absolutely not found anywhere in the Torah
It is certainly found in the Torah because the Torah include the Book of Genesis and my source is Genesis 4.
There is nothing in Genesis 4 saying that Cain was MARRIED and that many generations have goes on BEFORE Cain killed Abel.There is also nothing in Genesis 4 saying that Abel was a prophet contrary to your claims.
http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm
In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. .
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Riberra
There is no consensus of agreement in all the Church age in all the many different Christian Churches on "Canon".
Canon is politics of power plays by different factions and there is no consensus of agreement between the powers that be, over the Churches worldwide and in all the Church age, on "Canon".
The Genesis account has Cain and Abel grown men, self supporting, and married. God commanded the Adam race to be fruitful and multiply. They were fruitful and they did multiply.
Cain's wife went with him when he went wandering. Later, a son was born to them and Cain built a city and named it after the son.

Cain was not a resident of Paradise when he brought the fruit of his tilled fields for sacrifice, and did not bring of his best.
There were NO! other Adam persons in Paradise when our first parents were driven out...
 
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Riberra

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Riberra
There is no consensus of agreement in all the Church age in all the many different Christian Churches on "Canon".
Canon is politics of power plays by different factions and there is no consensus of agreement between the powers that be, over the Churches worldwide and in all the Church age, on "Canon".
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-of-Scripture.html

What measure or standard was used to determine which books should be classified as Scripture? A key verse to understanding the process and purpose, and perhaps the timing of the giving of Scripture, is Jude 3 which states that a Christian's faith “was once for all entrusted to the saints.” Since our faith is defined by Scripture, Jude is essentially saying that Scripture was given once for the benefit of all Christians. Isn't it wonderful to know that there are no hidden or lost manuscripts yet to be found, there are no secret books only familiar to a select few, and there are no people alive who have special revelation requiring us to trek up a Himalayan mountain in order to be enlightened? We can be confident that God has not left us without a witness. The same supernatural power God used to produce His Word has also been used to preserve it.

Psalm 119:160 states that the entirety of God's Word is truth.
Starting with that premise, we can compare writings outside the accepted canon of Scripture to see if they meet the test. As an example, the Bible claims that Jesus Christ is God (Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 1:22-23; John 1:1, 2, 14, 20:28; Acts 16:31, 34; Philippians 2:5-6; Colossians 2:9; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1). Yet many extra-biblical texts, claiming to be Scripture, argue that Jesus is not God. When clear contradictions exist, the established Bible is to be trusted, leaving the others outside the sphere of Scripture.


The Genesis account has Cain and Abel grown men, self supporting, and married.
So you don't consider betwen 16 and 20 years old can be accounted for grown men ,probably you think that at the time they must be aged 300 years old to be considered grown men...

Your claim that they were married when cain killed Abel is not supported by the written word of God in Genesis 4.


Cain was not a resident of Paradise when he brought the fruit of his tilled fields for sacrifice, and did not bring of his best.
True ,after that Adam ad Eve were cast out of the garden of Eden because they have fallen for Satan's temptation they were living outside the limit of the Garden of Eden,but still very close.

There were NO! other Adam persons in Paradise when our first parents were driven out...
True,
As i have said the HUMANS (MANKIND) created by God on the 6Th Day were living outside the Garden of Eden.It is clearly mentionned in Genesis 4:16-17 that Cain meet his wife in the Land of Nod, located on the East of Eden.

Genesis 4:16-17
16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
 
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greenguzzi

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Science is not an "entity", and what you are generalizing is not "science".
Men who claim anything in opposition to the Word of God in its plain and simple truth about creation and the age of the earth are not "scientists", and their "science" is falsely so called.
No man was there until day 6, and could not observe the 6 days of creation week, when God created the heavens and the earth and all that in them is, in 6 days of normal evenings and mornings, and crowned it all with the creation of Adam, the firstborn of our human being kind race, whom He made in His own image/likeness =bodily likeness, as Romans 5:14 confirms, and as Ezekiel 1 also confirms, as God states in Genesis 1.

So the Word of God stands as true scientific fact on the creation week
I never said that science was an entity, it's actually an activity and a method.
I wasn't generalising, I was summarising.
There is nothing unscientific about proposing your understand of Genesis as a hypothesis, and there is nothing unscientific in proposing an opposing hypothesis. You can't claim that presenting one of these is not science. To do so as you do shows that you don't understand science.
Genesis isn't science. It is truth, but it isn't science.
We can know things about the past without having had someone directly observe them when they happened. This knowledge can disagree with your understanding of the book of Genesis without disagreeing with the book of Genesis.
Given the choice of science being wrong, or the book of Genesis being wrong, or your understanding being wrong; I'm sorry to say that it's your understanding that would have to be the one to go. Nothing personal, I'd apply the same reasoning to my own understanding.
 
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Hoghead1

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It would appear, Riberra, that you take for granted that Scripture is inerrant. OK, fine. However, the inerrancy of Scripture is simply a claim made by the inerrancy theory. I say "theory" because it is based on the human-made possibly fallible theory of how God and Scripture may be related. Like any theory, it needs tested out. Unfortunately, most inerrancy people are unwilling to do that. I submit that when it is tested out, it doesn't work. Given the number of contradictions, outmoded geophysics, and failed prophecies that we find in Scripture, it would hardly qualify as inerrant. That does not mean it is worthless or not inspired; it simply means it is not inerrant. It also means we need to rethink how we conceive of God's relationship to Scripture. It does make sense that God is content with a less than inerrant Scripture, as only God is perfect. Hence, attributing to Scripture attributes that belong only to Good is just Bibleolatry, pure and simple.
 
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Hoghead1

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If, as you say, no one was there to directly observe creation, Yeshua, how can you say it is valid scientifically? I think that you are going on the unchecked theory that Scripture has to be inerrant. As I said to Riberra, this is purely a human-made theory that has not stood the test of time. So it is your theory that is way off base here, not science.
 
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Hoghead1

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You forget, Greenguzzi, that much science, especially evolution, began when scientists went out and explored nature to show how science verifies Genesis. On the basis of their hard data, however, the Genesis account did not hold up. Hence, Genesis has already been tested out. Why propose it again? Also, you have a problem as to which creation account, as Genesis contains not one, but two contradictory ones.
 
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greenguzzi

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You forget, Greenguzzi, that much science, especially evolution, began when scientists went out and explored nature to show how science verifies Genesis. On the basis of their hard data, however, the Genesis account did not hold up. Hence, Genesis has already been tested out. Why propose it again? Also, you have a problem as to which creation account, as Genesis contains not one, but two contradictory ones.
I haven't forgotten anything. You missed my point; I was using it as an example to attempt to explain how science works to someone who's concept of science is seriously wrong.

There is nothing unscientific or wrong in again testing any given hypothesis. That's how we teach science (my goal here).

I don't have any problem with Genesis. I haven't even yet offered my opinion about Genesis, except to point out that it's not a scientific document.
 
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Riberra

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It would appear, Riberra, that you take for granted that Scripture is inerrant. OK, fine. However, the inerrancy of Scripture is simply a claim made by the inerrancy theory.
Even science admit that the Physical Universe have not always existed .... the problem is not with the inerrancy of the original account ,but with the interpretation of what is written based sometime on mis-translation of the original account.

Example:
Genesis 1:1
1 “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

Does it say when the beginning was? Absolutely not. This event did not take place six-thousand years ago, but eons ago. This scripture is describing the “themelios“, the foundation of the Heaven and earth in The World That Was, The First Earth Age.

Further, science tells us the earth is billions of years in age and when we properly understand our Father’s Word there is no contradiction with that statement.

Genesis 1:2
2 “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

Between verses one and two we have the passing of a very large amount of time. In verse one we are told, “God created the Heaven and the earth” (“themelios”). In verse two we are told, “the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep“. Essentially this verse is documenting the “katabole” which includes the destruction of The First Earth Age.

This scripture is also where we find the first mistranslation in the King James Version Bible. The word “was” is 1961 in your Strong’s Concordance and being properly translated means, “became“. This change in words completely alters the scriptures. The word“was” implies that God created the earth void which we know is not accurate and we will completely document that fact as we move through this study.

While the word “became” stipulates an event caused the earth to ‘become without form and void’. That event was the “katabole“, the “deposition” or “cast down” of Satan from his position of power in The First Earth Age.

Our Father did not create the earth “without form” (tôhû in Hebrew) which is word 8414 in your Strong’s, meaning, “a desolation“. Neither did He create the earth “void” (bôhû in Hebrew 922) meaning, “an undistinguishable ruin“, but it did “become” that way because of the fall of Satan. So verse two properly translated means, we have a world that ‘became a desolation, became an undistinguishable ruin‘. If it became void then it was something else before, God’s Word states the world was created as a habitable paradise.

More details here:
http://www.worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-age-of-earth.html

I say "theory" because it is based on the human-made possibly fallible theory of how God and Scripture may be related. Like any theory, it needs tested out. Unfortunately, most inerrancy people are unwilling to do that. I submit that when it is tested out, it doesn't work.
How can you test the creation of the Universe in a laboratory ?

Given the number of contradictions, outmoded geophysics,
This is based on the interpretation of those who believe that the Earth is only 6'000 years old.

Genesis 1:1
1 “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”

Does it say when the beginning was? Absolutely not. This event did not take place six-thousand years ago, but eons ago. This scripture is describing the “themelios“, the foundation of the Heaven and earth in The World That Was, The First Earth Age.

God for some reasons -explained in the links below- have drowned with a total flood the Earth which was created perfect right there in Genesis 1:1...God have done the same thing a second time during Noah's flood....The cycle of destruction and regenation by God of the Earth surface is documented.... 2 times the Earth surface and biosphere was destroyed by a Total Flood,next time it will be with fire...


You can have more details here:
http://www.worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-age-of-earth.html

And here:
http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2014/09/satans-sin.html

and failed prophecies that we find in Scripture, it would hardly qualify as inerrant. That does not mean it is worthless or not inspired; it simply means it is not inerrant.
Can you give an example of failed Biblical Prophecies ?

I am pretty sure that the failed prophecies all came from the pre-tribulation rapture crowd...


[ It also means we need to rethink how we conceive of God's relationship to Scripture.It does make sense that God is content with a less than inerrant Scripture, as only God is perfect.
God is perfect ,that is the mis-interpetation by men often based on mistranslation of the original account wich cause the confusion.

Hence, attributing to Scripture attributes that belong only to God is just Bibleolatry, pure and simple.
As I said above even science agree that the Universe have not always existed ... they can only goes back to the moment of its creation by God about 15 billions years ago.

Science cannot explain before this moment or why it happened....in astrophysics they call that the Big Bang singularity or the the initial singularity ,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_singularity

The material universe does not came into existence from nothing.
God is the primary energy by which the material universe came into existence.
Matter is energy transformed.God used a part of His energy to create the material universe and that is God's energy which keep the material universe into existence.... this is the mysterious "Dark Energy" that the Astrophysicists talk about.
 
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Hoghead1

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From your response, I sensed I may have confused you, so let me be clearer. I said that the Bible contains numerous contradictions, about 100 major ones. One major example is 2 Sam. 21:19, which states that Elhanan killed Goliath. Many Bibles have it reading that Elhanan killed the "brother of" Goliath. But there is no "brother of" in the original Hebrew. The"brother of" was added in by translators to bludgeon Scripture into accord with their inerrancy theory. That's how irrational inerrancy people can be. They are willing to rewrite Scripture to suit their theory. Another major contradiction is the Genesis account, where two conflicting chronologies are given. I have spent a lot of time reviewing that matter. I don't know if I have sent you anything on this or not; but in case I haven't, I am including here below my analysis. Following strictly the biblical chronology, the universe was crated about 6000 years ago. You claim that Genesis really represents millions of years, but that is reading way too much into the text.

You asked about failed prophecies. OK, here are two. Paul and other early Christians, including the writer of the Book of Revelations, looked forward to an immanent end of the world. The OT tends to depict the Messiah as an early king who will restore Israel to her former glory.

You definitely do not have to test the creation of the universe in a lab in order to get a pretty good idea how it occurred by naturalistic observation, by going out and exploring teh universe. Actually, naturalistic observation is often the best way, since the lab sets up highly artificial conditions.

I don't follow when you argue it is a mistake to think God is perfect. What else would God be?



  1. \





When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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Riberra

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From your response, I sensed I may have confused you, so let me be clearer. I said that the Bible contains numerous contradictions, about 100 major ones. One major example is 2 Sam. 21:19, which states that Elhanan killed Goliath. Many Bibles have it reading that Elhanan killed the "brother of" Goliath. But there is no "brother of" in the original Hebrew. The"brother of" was added in by translators to bludgeon Scripture into accord with their inerrancy theory. That's how irrational inerrancy people can be. They are willing to rewrite Scripture to suit their theory.
There were effectively mistranslation in some passage of the Bible...error is Human.I don't think that your example that you say is MAJOR is that important.

Another major contradiction is the Genesis account, where two conflicting chronologies are given. I have spent a lot of time reviewing that matter. I don't know if I have sent you anything on this or not; but in case I haven't, I am including here below my analysis. Following strictly the biblical chronology, the universe was crated about 6000 years ago. You claim that Genesis really represents millions of years, but that is reading way too much into the text.
They wrongly used the Genealogy leading to Adam creation in the Garden of Eden and attribuated the 6,000 years to the Creation by God of the Heaven and earth mentionned in Genesis 1.

You asked about failed prophecies. OK, here are two. Paul and other early Christians, including the writer of the Book of Revelations, looked forward to an immanent end of the world.
Their error is that they have wrongly interpreted that they were the generation that will see the return of Jesus and the End of the present way of thing.
The OT tends to depict the Messiah as an early king who will restore Israel to her former glory.
That will happen unto Jesus second coming.

You definitely do not have to test the creation of the universe in a lab in order to get a pretty good idea how it occurred by naturalistic observation, by going out and exploring teh universe. Actually, naturalistic observation is often the best way, since the lab sets up highly artificial conditions.
By observation they came to the conclusion that the Universe have a beginning...

I don't follow when you argue it is a mistake to think God is perfect. What else would God be?
I don't argue that God is perfect... Based on what you writed you seemed to say that the Bible is wrong when a particular paasage said that the whole Word of God is Thruth.I say to you that this is the mis-interpretation of the original account which cause the problem.


When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.
You are right ,Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 for example use a highly symbolic language related to what really happened in the Garden of Eden. -A tree with the kowledge of good and evil--- a speaking serpent (Satan) in that tree beguiling Eve...


Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it?
Have you ever find a verse saying that science is bad ?This reasonning about science that some have don't come from the Bible .

Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.
Calvin was wrong on that ...somewhere in the Bible it is said that kowledge will increase...that must imply via observation and research.

Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together.


In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.
That apparent cotradiction is easely solved. Mankind as a whole was created after the animal kingdom on Day 6 mentionned in Genesis 1 Male and Female He created THEM.

Adam and Eve were created after the 7th Day of rest in the Garden of Eden for a special purpose, a test which they have failed ,this is the account starting in Genesis 2...Genesis 3... The test was to see if they will follow Satan's ways rather than obey God...There have been consequences after they have fallen into Satan's temptation rather than obey God.


Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo.
God use a part of His own energy in the act of Creation...
But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing.
God is showing that He is not limited to only one method to create.

God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing.
God created humans and animals and all living creatures with the capacity to reproduce.
 
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Riberra

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From your response, I sensed I may have confused you, so let me be clearer. I said that the Bible contains numerous contradictions, about 100 major ones. One major example is 2 Sam. 21:19, which states that Elhanan killed Goliath. Many Bibles have it reading that Elhanan killed the "brother of" Goliath. But there is no "brother of" in the original Hebrew. The"brother of" was added in by translators to bludgeon Scripture into accord with their inerrancy theory. That's how irrational inerrancy people can be. They are willing to rewrite Scripture to suit their theory.
There were effectively mistranslation and errors in rewriting some passage of the Bible caused by fatigue during the hard work of translation.....ERROR is Human.I don't think that your example that you say is MAJOR is that important.

Another major contradiction is the Genesis account, where two conflicting chronologies are given. I have spent a lot of time reviewing that matter. I don't know if I have sent you anything on this or not; but in case I haven't, I am including here below my analysis. Following strictly the biblical chronology, the universe was crated about 6000 years ago. You claim that Genesis really represents millions of years, but that is reading way too much into the text.
They wrongly used the Genealogy leading to Adam's creation in the Garden of Eden and attribuated the 6,000 years to the Creation by God of the Heaven and the Earth mentionned in Genesis 1:1.
An attentive reading of Genesis 2 tell us that Adam and the Garden of Eden were created after the 7th Day of Rest. thus at least 1,000 years after the humans (mankind) created on the 6Th Day. -More details below-

You asked about failed prophecies. OK, here are two. Paul and other early Christians, including the writer of the Book of Revelations, looked forward to an immanent end of the world.
Their error is that they have wrongly interpreted that they were the generation that will see the return of Jesus and the End of the present way of thing.
The OT tends to depict the Messiah as an early king who will restore Israel to her former glory.
That will happen unto Jesus second coming.

You definitely do not have to test the creation of the universe in a lab in order to get a pretty good idea how it occurred by naturalistic observation, by going out and exploring teh universe. Actually, naturalistic observation is often the best way, since the lab sets up highly artificial conditions.
By observation they came to the conclusion that the Universe have a beginning...

I don't follow when you argue it is a mistake to think God is perfect. What else would God be?
I don't argue that God is perfect... Based on what you writed you seemed to say that the Bible is wrong when a particular passage said that the whole Word of God is Thruth.I say to you that this is the mis-interpretation of the original account which cause the problem.


When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.
You are right ,Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 for example use a highly symbolic language related to what really happened in the Garden of Eden. -A tree with the kowledge of good and evil--- a speaking serpent (Satan) in that tree beguiling Eve...


Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it?
Have you ever find a verse saying that science is bad ?This reasonning about science that some have don't come from the Bible .

Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.
Calvin was wrong on that ...somewhere in the Bible it is said that kowledge will increase...that must imply via observation and research.

Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together.


In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.
That apparent cotradiction is easely solved. Mankind as a whole was created after the animal kingdom on Day 6 mentionned in Genesis 1 Male and Female He created THEM.

Adam and Eve were created after the 7th Day of rest in the Garden of Eden for a special purpose, a test which they have failed ,this is the account starting in Genesis 2...Genesis 3... The test was to see if they will follow Satan's ways rather than obey God...There have been consequences after they have fallen into Satan's temptation rather than obey God.


Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo.
God use a part of His own energy in the act of Creation...
But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing.
God is showing that He is not limited to only one method to create.

God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing.
God created humans and animals and all living creatures with the capacity to reproduce.
 
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Hoghead1

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Riberra, I can't tell if you are agreeing with me that there are contradictions in Scripture or no. And certainly Davbid and Goliath is a major enough part of the Bible to make 2 Sam.21:19 an important contradiction to address.
Your account of Genesis simply does not work, as it is based upon you reading in meanings completely contrary to the stated text.
Your view on how God creates is just that: your view. It is never stated in the Bible, however, which does not explain creation in any real detail.
When you talk about the Word of God (capital W), this title is exclusively reserved in Scripture for Christ and then certainly the Bible itself.
 
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Riberra

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Riberra, I can't tell if you are agreeing with me that there are contradictions in Scripture or no.
There must have been errors introduced when translating and recopying some texts of the Bible which have introduced apparent contradictions.

And certainly Davbid and Goliath is a major enough part of the Bible to make 2 Sam.21:19 an important contradiction to address.
Based upon Scriptures there were many giants around at that time that the Israelites were commanded by God to kill...i don't see the reason why Goliath could not have a brother.

Your account of Genesis simply does not work, as it is based upon you reading in meanings completely contrary to the stated text.
The original text was in Hebrew for the Old Testament and in Greek for the New Testament.

I have provided example of mistranslated words from the Hebrew language to English which caused confusion right in Genesis 1:2
This is documented here:
http://www.worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-age-of-earth.html

Your view on how God creates is just that: your view. It is never stated in the Bible, however, which does not explain creation in any real detail.
God provide clear examples that He is not limited by only one method to create a Human.

When you talk about the Word of God (capital W), this title is exclusively reserved in Scripture for Christ and then certainly the Bible itself.
I have never said the contrary.
Everything described in the links below are real verses taken from the KJV Bible using Strong concordance that everybody can verify by themselve with the KJV Bible and the official Strong concordance.

http://www.worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-age-of-earth.html

http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2014/09/satans-sin.html
 
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Hoghead1

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Whether or not Goliath had a brother is snot the issue here. If he did have a brother, he probably would not have the same name anyway. My point is that there is no "brother of" in the Hebrew text. Also, not all contradictions can be accounted for by copy errors, especially as the scribes were very, very strict about how they handled the texts.
There are no mistranslated Hebrew words in the Genesis text.
God is not limited by one method in creating humans? OK, but what are the methods and how do they work?

I don't see at all what your reference above to Strong's "Concordance" has to do with anything I said.
 
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Riberra

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Whether or not Goliath had a brother is snot the issue here. If he did have a brother, he probably would not have the same name anyway. My point is that there is no "brother of" in the Hebrew text. Also, not all contradictions can be accounted for by copy errors, especially as the scribes were very, very strict about how they handled the texts.
Right...but mistranslation were made... the Hebrew language meaning does not always render accurately in English.
There are no mistranslated Hebrew words in the Genesis text.

Genesis 1:2
2 “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

This scripture is also where we find the first mistranslation in the King James Version Bible. The word “was” is 1961 in your Strong’s Concordance and being properly translated means, “became“. This change in words completely alters the scriptures. The word“was” implies that God created the earth void which we know is not accurate and we will completely document that fact as we move through this study.

While the word “became” stipulates an event caused the earth to ‘become without form and void’. That event was the “katabole“, the “deposition” or “cast down” of Satan from his position of power in The First Earth Age.

Our Father did not create the earth “without form” (tôhû in Hebrew) which is word 8414 in your Strong’s, meaning, “a desolation“. Neither did He create the earth “void” (bôhû in Hebrew 922) meaning, “an undistinguishable ruin“, but it did “become” that way because of the fall of Satan. So verse two properly translated means, we have a world that ‘became a desolation, became an undistinguishable ruin‘. If it became void then it was something else before,


http://www.worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-age-of-earth.html

God is not limited by one method in creating humans? OK, but what are the methods and how do they work?
God does not reveal the how in the Bible.I speculate that every time that God made an act of creation God use a Part of His energy.
Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I don't see at all what your reference above to Strong's "Concordance" has to do with anything I said.
It have surely to do with the examples showing the true meaning of the Hebrew words....some of them which were mistranslated in English.
 
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