Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah? - part 2

[rakovsky]

Oh, I can't find it now, but the place I read it said that "belly of the fish" was a phrase used to describe the storms on that body of water. This was years and years ago so I never looked it up, I just thought it was interesting.

OK, I understand.

In Jonah we also have the story of God sending a miraculous fig tree. I think that this was not an expression, but rather a specific physical entity. Fig tree/fish/boat, etc. How does a fig tree just grow up while Jonah is just sitting there and then miraculously die? I think the author is really talking about extreme miracles.
People in the modern world want to salvage the Bible's meanings even if nowadays they don't believe these things happened in real life. They conclude that something in the Bible sounds crazy and magical, so that's not what the authors meant. Well, maybe the authors really were a little bit "crazy" and meant magical things! Or they were just making a parable that included magical things.

 

[afishamongmany]

Hello folks
Just to say thanks for measured and heartfelt (good combination) exchanges that I've found informative and thought provoking.
@rakovsky- I haven't got to your site yet but it's on the to do list.
@ all - I would be interested on your take on the theological angle/argument I've put forward in Isaiah 53 part 3.
I do not plan to do anymore 'parts'
All the best
><>

 

[rakovsky]

Hello folks
Just to say thanks for measured and heartfelt (good combination) exchanges that I've found informative and thought provoking.
@rakovsky- I haven't got to your site yet but it's on the to do list.
@ all - I would be interested on your take on the theological angle/argument I've put forward in Isaiah 53 part 3.
I do not plan to do anymore 'parts'
All the best
><>

FISH,
For my research I read numerous rabbinical (and Christian) websites and talked with opponents and advocates of the Christian reading of Isaiah 53 at length. Anything I could disagree with on my own I expressed it to the authors, writing back. It was fascinating.
Anything I could not on my own address, I put on my website and researched a bit.
In other words, Christian arguments that I could not debunk on my own ended up on my site.
So at this point, probably almost anything you read online will either be something you too can debunk on your own, and what you can't you can get the answer about after reading my site.

Shalom.

 

[Robban]

Hi Robbin,
By repentance we do not accomplish our atonement. By repentance we receive and experience the atonement that God has accomplished for us. The thirsty man will die of his thirst unless he actually drinks the water offered. Where does the man some call JC come into the picture?

“ … they (the Pharisees) asked him, “Where is your father?”
“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
… he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
“Who are you?” they asked.”

Now I know that these words are of no account to you. They come from John's Gospel chapter 8 so for you they have no authority. But for me they are an answer to your question, they are living water flowing from the same source as the Torah.
Not only does JC come into the picture, it is He who paints it.
Wisdom and peace to you.
><>

Hi there again,
Repentence is to return, it is a doing.
All need to do repentence,
It is about returning to the source.

The essence of Life is Connection with the source.
We all need to plug in.

There are descriptions even in the NT that I recognize,

But each soul on their plane/level.

Good to hear from you.

 

[rakovsky]

Daniel Boyarin, Taubman Professor of Talmudic Culture and rhetoric at the University of California, Berkeley, is the recipient of numerous awards and fellowships.

Top Customer Reviews
5.0 out of 5 starsA Brilliant and Original View of the Origins of Christian Theology
By Prufrock on March 18, 2012Format: Hardcover

Daniel Boyarin is one of the world's great scholars of Jewish Theology. In this book, Boyarin argues that the concept of the Trinity, which has always been considered the great original contribution of Christianity, is really derived from ideas that were common in Jewish thought before the time of Christ. He also demonstrates with great learning that the irreconcilable schism between Jews and Christians did not really come about until several hundred years after Christ. Boyarin demonstrates how there were Jews who believed in Jesus and Jews who didn't, but they were all part of the Jewish identity.

I imagine that this book is going to generate some very heated debate. It won't be popular with Jews who think of themselves as the first and longest standing monotheistic religion. And it is certain to make Christians uncomfortable, because he argues with great learning that the idea of a God who is both father and son is not original to Christianity.​

An Orthodox Jew, Boyarin takes the view that Unitarianism (as opposed to Monotheism) was not a requirement of the ancient Hebrews' beliefs and that Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah. Naturally, as an Orthodox Jew though, he is not teaching that Jesus was particularly Divine and physically resurrected Himself, just that this kind of belief about the Messiah was part of ancient Judaism.

 

[peepnklown]

I can see the chapters are written from the view of God, or the prophet, or Israel. I think none is one from the world.

Isaiah 56, the nations of world (gentiles) speak as well but, I wouldn’t want to disrupt the thread.
I think we have enough support to say Isaiah 52 – Isaiah 53 is NOT about the Jewish Messiah and about Israel.

 

[juvenissun]

Isaiah 56, the nations of world (gentiles) speak as well but, I wouldn’t want to disrupt the thread.
I think we have enough support to say Isaiah 52 – Isaiah 53 is NOT about the Jewish Messiah and about Israel.

In Isaiah 56, every verse is said by God. (God says you said ... is said by God, not by you.)
Statistically, it is highly unlikely that Isaiah 52-53 is written from the view of the world.

 

[rakovsky]

Isaiah 56, the nations of world (gentiles) speak as well but, I wouldn’t want to disrupt the thread.

Where does it have the nations of the world speaking in Is 56?
The Chapter begins Thus saith the Lord, not thus saith the gentiles.
Do you mean there is just a verse or a few verses where gentiles speak? That is not an issue. Isaiah 53 is almost a whole chapter of inspired singing. That would be a major anomaly in scripture, with the only other example being Balaam in Numbers, and maybe Ruth.

 

[LoAmmi]

For Christian interpretation, when is the period of time when the Kings of the World are shocked and shut their mouths? When is the servant exulted?

 

[peepnklown]

In Isaiah 56, every verse is said by God. (God says you said ... is said by God, not by you.) Statistically, it is highly unlikely that Isaiah 52-53 is written from the view of the world.

Where does it have the nations of the world speaking in Is 56?
The Chapter begins Thus saith the Lord, not thus saith the gentiles.

Did you read past Isaiah 56:1? Isaiah 56:3 it’s not God asking these questions. A ‘foreigner’ or the gentiles are basically asking why they should follow the God of Israel, because they feel they will be separated (or excluded) once Israel is rewarded. The same thing goes for the eunuch (most likely of foreign origin). Isaiah 56:4 then God answers these questions. This thread isn’t about Isaiah 56. I was providing an example.


If you want to talk about statistics, how about the many, many, many times Isaiah tells us that My Servant is Israel yet Christians claim it’s about the Messiah in Isaiah 53? See, it works both ways, eh? It’s not about statistics when it comes to Isaiah; it all depends on the message.

 

[rakovsky]

Did you read past Isaiah 56:1? Isaiah 56:3 it’s not God asking these questions. A ‘foreigner’ or the gentiles are basically asking why they should follow the God of Israel, because they feel they will be separated (or excluded) once Israel is rewarded. The same thing goes for the eunuch (most likely of foreign origin). Isaiah 56:4 then God answers these questions. This thread isn’t about Isaiah 56. I was providing an example.

Yes, you are just talking about part of a verse.
It's an extreme anomaly in the Tanakh for the speakers with inspiration to fill a chapter or so if they are gentile.

If you want to talk about statistics, how about the many, many, many times Isaiah tells us that My Servant is Israel yet Christians claim it’s about the Messiah in Isaiah 53? See, it works both ways, eh? It’s not about statistics when it comes to Isaiah; it all depends on the message.

The thing is, Isaiah explicitly switches the Servant from the Tribe Israel in Is. 40-Is. 49, even before we get to Is.53.
In those set of chapters, God says that it's the Servant's job to gather Israel, thereby creating an obvious distinction between the two. Gathering Israel was the job of the Messiah.
I invite you to read my website where I describe this in more detail.

 

[peepnklown]

The thing is, Isaiah explicitly switches the Servant from the Tribe Israel in Is. 40-Is. 49, even before we get to Is.53.
In those set of chapters, God says that it's the Servant's job to gather Israel, thereby creating an obvious distinction between the two. Gathering Israel was the job of the Messiah.
I invite you to read my website where I describe this in more detail.

Which verse are you talking about?

 

[rakovsky]

Which verse are you talking about?

Isaiah 49:5
And now the LORD says-- he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength--

In the chapter 49, God called the Narrator His Servant. Then its the Servant's job to gather Israel. So the Servant is not Israel. This is just three chapters before the Servant song starts of isaiah 52-53. And back in Isaiah 11, Isaiah says gathering Israel is Messiah's job.

Can you please look at my website so that I don't have to repeat everything I wrote, please?

 

[peepnklown]

Isaiah 49:5

Isaiah 11 is about the Jewish Messiah but, Isaiah identifies the Jewish Messiah in Isaiah 11:1, ‘And a shoot shall spring forth from the stem of Jesse, and a twig shall sprout from his roots’ and again in Isaiah 11:10, ‘And it shall come to pass on that day, that the root of Jesse…’ Isaiah clearly identifies the Jewish Messiah. Then Isaiah 11 is all about physically gathering the Jewish people from exile and returns them to Israel.


Now let’s compare Isaiah 49. Isaiah does not identify the Jewish Messiah.
Isaiah 49:5 says nothing about physically bringing the Jewish people out of exile and returns them to Israel.
It clearly says to gather to Him (God).
Isaiah 49:5 doesn’t use My servant like Isaiah 49:3, ‘You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast.’
Isaiah 49:5 is talking about something completely different.
Let me ask you this, in Isaiah 49:5 ‘And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb…’ who was formed in the womb?

I’m not trying to be harsh but, pointing to your website is not how a debate works.
If you do not want to ‘repeat’ yourself then simply do not respond to my posts.
You don’t think I have not repeated myself in the course of my 4600 posts?
I come to debate, which means providing and defending my point over and over again, if needed.

 

[rakovsky]

Isaiah 11 is about the Jewish Messiah but, Isaiah identifies the Jewish Messiah in Isaiah 11:1, ‘And a shoot shall spring forth from the stem of Jesse, and a twig shall sprout from his roots’ and again in Isaiah 11:10, ‘And it shall come to pass on that day, that the root of Jesse…’ Isaiah clearly identifies the Jewish Messiah. Then Isaiah 11 is all about physically gathering the Jewish people from exile and returns them to Israel.

Maimonides points out that isaiah 53 begins by introducing the Servant as the "shoot" also, and concludes that isaiah 53 is about Messiah (Letter by maimonides to Yemenites)

Now let’s compare Isaiah 49. Isaiah does not identify the Jewish Messiah.
Isaiah 49:5 says nothing about physically bringing the Jewish people out of exile and returns them to Israel.
It clearly says to gather to Him (God).

The distinction in Is 11 and 53 between gathering to God and gathering to land is not so clear.
Messiah's job is also to bring His people to God. Messiah is like a shepherd, as Ezekiel says directly. "Gathering" for God's purposes and for sheep to be under God is Messiah's job.

Isaiah 49:5 doesn’t use My servant like Isaiah 49:3, ‘You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast.’
Isaiah 49:5 is talking about something completely different.

Sorry, I think not. I think that God in verse 3 is using "Israel" as a name for the narrator, just as God once used Israel as the name for Jacob. In Isaiah 44, God explicitly says that another will be called Israel. So don't think that it's 100% certain that whenever it says Israel it always must mean the same person or group of people.
I think it makes very good sense to think that in verse 3 God says You are my Servant "israel", and then two verses later he says to this same person "you go gather Israel." And the person I think is the Messiah, whose job it is to gather Israel.

Let me ask you this, in Isaiah 49:5 ‘And now, the Lord, Who formed me from the womb…’ who was formed in the womb?

Rashi doesn't give specific commentary on this, but Lopukhin would suggest that it prefigured the messiah.
Directly, God is talking to Isaiah the person, but it is a prefigurement of Messiah. The same thing happens in Zech 11, where God talks to the prophet, but the prophet is a stand in for a greater figure who herds the sheep.

I’m not trying to be harsh but, pointing to your website is not how a debate works.
If you do not want to ‘repeat’ yourself then simply do not respond to my posts.
You don’t think I have not repeated myself in the course of my 4600 posts?
I come to debate, which means providing and defending my point over and over again, if needed.

I think we are not in the Debate section, correct me if I am wrong, but in
Forums > Prayer and Outreach > Outreach > Christianity and World Religion
I was not looking for debate and to make 4600 posts on isaiah 53, but rather a nice discussion. I liked talking with LoAmmi alot.

I think Isaiah 53 is intentionally esoteric enough that it is not easily to get people to change their minds once they are entrenched. If you want a friendly talk with me about Is 53, I please ask that you look at what I wrote on the topic.

For me, rather than debate Isaiah 53, it is more interesting what you think about religion in general. For example, are you Jewish by Halakha? What would be the best, most realistic religion to believe in? Maybe just agnosticism, because we don't "know" the truth?

Peace.

 

[peepnklown]

Peace.

We would need another thread to discuss the ‘Iggeres Teiman.’ For example, in the letter to Yemen, the Messiah has to perform miracles and wonders, but in the Mishnah Torah (the more authoritative source) he denies the Messiah has to perform signs or wonders.
Also in the letter to Yemen, the Messiah, ‘is not a person concerning whom it may be predicted that he will be the son of so and so, or of the family of so and so…’ but, again, from the Mishnah Torah (the more authoritative source) he writes the Messiah will arise from the House of David.
I am very leery of the letter to Yemen. At best, since it was a warning against a false Messiah, I think the claims made in the letter came from the people who believed in the false Messiah in Yemen and not Rambam (Maimonides).


First, Isaiah 11 identifies the Messiah, as a shoot and root of Jesse.
Second, Isaiah 11 identifies physical places where the Jewish exiles will be gathered from, Assyria, Egypt, Cush, etc.
Isaiah 49 does not identify the Messiah but, it does idenifty…
Isaiah 49:1 ‘…the Lord called me from the womb; from the innards of my mother He mentioned my name.’
It’s Isaiah! Isaiah 49:5 is about the servant Isaiah, ‘…to bring Jacob back to Him, and Israel shall be gathered to Him…’
It’s Isaiah doing this.

I assume you mean, Isaiah 44:5 but, you misunderstand. It’s doesn’t say God will call another Israel, far from it. ‘This one shall say, ‘I am the Lord’s,’ and this one shall call himself by the name of Jacob, and this one shall write with his hand, ‘To the Lord,’ and adopt the name Israel.
It doesn’t say God is saying this or calling anyone anything.
Isaiah 44:6 ‘This is what the Lord says…’ Now God is talking!
I would look into the history of the proselytes (ancient Israelite history), or the people allowed in the community who were not born Israelites, like the Gibeonites, Kenites, etc.

 

[juvenissun]

If you want to talk about statistics, how about the many, many, many times Isaiah tells us that My Servant is Israel yet Christians claim it’s about the Messiah in Isaiah 53? See, it works both ways, eh? It’s not about statistics when it comes to Isaiah; it all depends on the message.

Good argument.

OK, change lane now.

One theme in Isaiah 52, 53 is (according to you and LoAmmi): Israel is bruised, SO THAT the world is healed.
Israel is bruised. That is true. But, how is the world been healed? I do not see ANY sign of that, from whoever's point of view.

 

[LoAmmi]

Good argument.

OK, change lane now.

One theme in Isaiah 52, 53 is (according to you and LoAmmi): Israel is bruised, SO THAT the world is healed.
Israel is bruised. That is true. But, how is the world been healed? I do not see ANY sign of that, from whoever's point of view.

We're not there yet. This is about the Messianic age in Jewish understanding.

 

[juvenissun]

We're not there yet. This is about the Messianic age in Jewish understanding.

Assume the Kingdom of JHWH will be established in the future, HOW would that heal the nations of the world?
I can see it will only heal the bruised Israel. Isaiah 53 describes that the world will be healed BEFORE Israel establishes her kingdom again. And, in the future, if Israel does not conquer the world (which is not in the Judaism), I can only see more conflicts among nations of the world.

 

[LoAmmi]

Assume the Kingdom of JHWH will be established in the future, HOW would that heal the nations of the world?
I can see it will only heal the bruised Israel. Isaiah 53 describes that the world will be healed BEFORE Israel establishes her kingdom again. And, in the future, if Israel does not conquer the world (which is not in the Judaism), I can only see more conflicts among nations of the world.

How does Isaiah 53 speak of it being healed before?

Timeline in the thought that Isaiah 53 is about Israel:

There is a war where the entire world rises up against Israel -- This would be the kingdom of Israel not the nation-state.

Israel, against all odds, wins due to divine intervention.

After this, the world recognizes that Israel has been right all along, that they are the chosen people, and that HaShem has, indeed, been on their side.

They also recognize that though they mistreated Israel throughout history, Israel's steadfastness in staying with HaShem is what eventually delivered the world to the Messianic Age which is known for universal peace and universal knowledge of HaShem. Universal peace seems like something everybody would consider to be a great thing. Had Israel given up, had the mistreatment of Israel broken them so that Israel failed, the Messianic Age would have not happened.