Isaiah 52-53 ~ Israel or The Messiah? - part 2

[ewq1938]

Oh, I would not say that.

I don't have a problem with it,
but you have a problem, trying to fit something into something else entirely.

Unless I have missunderstood you completely.

In as much as you are implying that David's son Death is somehow a "shadow Picture"
of the Death of Jesus, you do consider Jesus as God's son?

But if that is the case, what sins has the Father commited that His son should die for them?

It would be the figurative Father of Adam and his descendants that have the sins the Messiah would die for.

 

[LoAmmi]

I believe the context is clear that David's sin caused the death of his child and at the same time served as a sin sacrifice. Wanting it to specifically say that outright is known as an argument from silence.

The text specifically says why it happened. Changing it is called adding to the text. So I don't argue from silence. I argue from exactly what the Prophet Nathan says. I trust his authority over yours.

 

[ewq1938]

The text specifically says why it happened. Changing it is called adding to the text.

I haven't changed the text. What I have done is "inferred" this from the text because I see the text "implying" this by providing key elements that suggest a sin atonement.

 

[rakovsky]

LLoJ, this is the problem with most Christian apologist when it comes to the Hebrew. They think using Strong’s Lexicon makes them proficient on biblical Hebrew. It doesn’t work this way.

The root verb נזה (NUN-ZAyin-HEH) can take on any of the meanings (to) shake, (to) drip and (to) sprinkle.
It’s used 24 times in the Hebrew Bible.
In 23 of its usages a substance that was or to be sprinkled is clearly specified in the passage except for Isaiah 52:15.

For example, Isaiah 63:3, what was sprinkled? Blood!
For example, 2 Kings 9:33, what was sprinkled? Blood!
For example, Exodus 29:21, what was sprinkled? Blood and Oil!
For example, Leviticus 4:6, what was sprinkled? Blood!
For example, Numbers 19:21, what was sprinkled? Water!
This is true for all 23 examples except Isaiah 52:12.

YES. Those are generally ritual references about sprinkling sacrificial blood and water.
In Isaiah 52-53 there is also a sacrifice and reference to a lamb.
Thus, there is also sprinkling of blood and water. In Isaiah 53 the Servant has expressly poured out his soul.
In Psalm 22 and Zech 12 there is also pouring and piercing of Messiah, respectively.

Ritual pouring out of soul and sprinkling of unstated blood or spirit. The gentiles "are sprinkled"(grammar stem) by Messiah.

Are gentile masses sprinkled by Messiah's own "blood"? Technically no. That is why no liquid is mentioned.

Isaiah 52:12, there is no mention of what will be sprinkled or where and how this sprinkling will be done.
So, nothing is being dripped or sprinkled in this verse.
So, we have (to) shake left. What would cause those who are present to shake or tremble, maybe fear, like the response to being startled or surprised?
Does the context support this? Yes. The nations of the world (gentiles), especially their kings will be speechless. ‘Who would believe what we have heard?’ They don’t believe what they have heard; they are startled or surprised by this information.
Also, יַזֶּה , is a verb in the hif'IL stem, an active connective form of the pa'AL/QAL stem in Hebrew grammar.
So what does this mean? It means, it reveals a consequence caused by the action of an external agent, thus something cause them (to) shake.
Again, what would cause the nations of the world (gentiles) to shake? What is the context of the verses?
Isaiah (God’s prophet) assures his people that those who had such visions of them (the nations of the world thinking God was against Israel and not with them) will be stunned when they see that Israel is the one who is exalted in the end.

Sidenote, the Septuagint, ‘so will many nations marvel at him.’

 

[ewq1938]

Are gentile masses sprinkled by Messiah's own "blood"? Technically no.

While I prefer the astonished translation Christ's blood is sprinkled upon the faithful, many who are gentiles.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[LoAmmi]

I haven't changed the text. What I have done is "inferred" this from the text because I see the text "implying" this by providing key elements that suggest a sin atonement.

You can imply whatever you want. I'm saying exactly what Nathan says. Nathan knows better than you.

 

[ewq1938]

You can imply whatever you want.

The text did the implying, I did the inferring.

I'm saying exactly what Nathan says. Nathan knows better than you.

Nice try but there is no conflict between what I understand and what Nathan said.

 

[LoAmmi]

The text did the implying, I did the inferring.




Nice try but there is no conflict between what I understand and what Nathan said.

So do you believe this infant was killed in the same way as the other sacrifices as commanded by the Torah and its blood sprinkled upon the altar in the Temple?

 

[ewq1938]

So do you believe this infant was killed in the same way as the other sacrifices as commanded by the Torah and its blood sprinkled upon the altar in the Temple?

No. 2Sa 12:15 covers what happened.

 

[LoAmmi]

No. 2Sa 12:15 covers what happened.

But this child was able to be an unblemished sacrifice for sin?

 

[ewq1938]

But this child was able to be an unblemished sacrifice for sin?

Children are unblemished.

 

[LoAmmi]

Children are unblemished.

And infants keep the Torah perfectly. Wouldn't David's son's sacrifice then have fulfilled all the Torah since it was kept perfectly prior to being a sin sacrifice?

 

[ewq1938]

And infants keep the Torah perfectly.

No, infants don't need to keep Torah at all to be unblemished.

Wouldn't David's son's sacrifice then have fulfilled all the Torah since it was kept perfectly prior to being a sin sacrifice?

No because the Torah only speaks of the rituals needed involving animals. When a human is sacrificed for the sin of another it involves God and what he chooses.

 

[LoAmmi]

Well, I think we're done. That was a fun rabbit hole.