Questions about Judaism, for information not for debate.

[Aryeh Jay]

Hi Folks - Just a couple of questions that interest me;
Are there any communities where blood is still applied to a doorway for Passover?
Head coverings, men- women, what are the present day practices and what is the understanding of the reasons for them?
Are present day practices of head covering the same as 2000 yrs ago?
Thanks
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Blood? Not any that I am aware of.

Head covering is to show reverence to God. A kippah/ yarmulke is not required, any hat will do.

2000 years ago it would whatever the common hat or turban was.

 

[afishamongmany]

Thanks AryehJ - So in a service both men an women would have to cover their heads? I'm not particularly interested in the type of covering, more in the theology of it. Where in Torah is it spoken of? the head covering of the priests (hats for glory and beauty)?
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[Aryeh Jay]

Thanks AryehJ - So in a service both men an women would have to cover their heads? I'm not particularly interested in the type of covering, more in the theology of it. Where in Torah is it spoken of? the head covering of the priests (hats for glory and beauty)?
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It depends on the branch of Judaism. Orthodox would have both men and women’s heads covered, Conservative usually is women optional and Reform men and women are optional.


There is no commandment to cover the head in the Torah.

 

[LoAmmi]

It depends on the branch of Judaism. Orthodox would have both men and women’s heads covered, Conservative usually is women optional and Reform men and women are optional.


There is no commandment to cover the head in the Torah.

I've been places where married women use a head covering and unmarried women don't. Lots of different traditions.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I've been places where married women use a head covering and unmarried women don't. Lots of different traditions.

Ah, I forgot about unmarried women, most of the people I see are in the 40-70 range…

 

[LoAmmi]

To answer the question a bit though, because it is traditional and not commanded, different communities may adopt different standards for the type of head covering and the like. Also, it would be entirely possible to drop the practice at some point since it isn't a Torah commandment. Unlikely to happen though.

 

[Chesterton]

I think I know the answer but I could be wrong. Are you familiar with the Muslim idea about the Kaaba, that cube in Saudi Arabia, and the black rock in it? They have stories about that connecting it with Adam and Eve, Noah and Abraham and such. Jewish history doesn't mention anything at all about it, does it?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I think I know the answer but I could be wrong. Are you familiar with the Muslim idea about the Kaaba, that cube in Saudi Arabia, and the black rock in it? They have stories about that connecting it with Adam and Eve, Noah and Abraham and such. Jewish history doesn't mention anything at all about it, does it?

Yes, I am familiar with the Kaaba.

No, not a thing mentioned.

 

[smaneck]

I think I know the answer but I could be wrong. Are you familiar with the Muslim idea about the Kaaba, that cube in Saudi Arabia, and the black rock in it? They have stories about that connecting it with Adam and Eve, Noah and Abraham and such. Jewish history doesn't mention anything at all about it, does it?

I don't know of any connection between the black stone an either Adam or Eve, or Noah. Abraham would be a very different matter. Muslims believe that the spring that sprung up to save the life of Ismael was in Mecca and that subsequently Abraham and Ismael built the Kaaba together. Muslims on pilgrimage ritually reenact the story of Ismael and Abraham. Abraham for them is the paradigmatic prophet. And yes, of course, those stories are not found in the Bible. The Bible is about the line that goes through Isaac. There are stories about Abraham in the Qur'an, however, which are found in the Talmud but not the Bible.

 

[Chesterton]

I don't know of any connection between the black stone an either Adam or Eve, or Noah. Abraham would be a very different matter. Muslims believe that the spring that sprung up to save the life of Ismael was in Mecca and that subsequently Abraham and Ismael built the Kaaba together. Muslims on pilgrimage ritually reenact the story of Ismael and Abraham. Abraham for them is the paradigmatic prophet. And yes, of course, those stories are not found in the Bible. The Bible is about the line that goes through Isaac. There are stories about Abraham in the Qur'an, however, which are found in the Talmud but not the Bible.

Yes there certainly are additional stories about things in the Koran. I'd love to get a look at the "original" Tanakh and Gospels that were corrupted, but alas, I guess archaeologists will have to keep looking.

 

[smaneck]

Yes there certainly are additional stories about things in the Koran. I'd love to get a look at the "original" Tanakh and Gospels that were corrupted, but alas, I guess archaeologists will have to keep looking.

Just because the Qur'an contains stories not found in the Bible, doesn't mean the Bible is corrupted. The Gospel writers themselves admitted they couldn't record everything Jesus said or did. How much more true would this have been about Abraham. In the case of Abraham, many of these stories are found in the Talmud as I already mentioned. And just like the stories we do find in the Bible, it doesn't matter to me all that much if they are literally true or not. When the Qur'an speaks of the Bible as being corrupted, it is talking about the way people interpreted it, not the text itself. As Baha'u'llah said:

"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? . . . Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!"

 

[Chesterton]

Just because the Qur'an contains stories not found in the Bible, doesn't mean the Bible is corrupted. The Gospel writers themselves admitted they couldn't record everything Jesus said or did. How much more true would this have been about Abraham. In the case of Abraham, many of these stories are found in the Talmud as I already mentioned. And just like the stories we do find in the Bible, it doesn't matter to me all that much if they are literally true or not. When the Qur'an speaks of the Bible as being corrupted, it is talking about the way people interpreted it, not the text itself.

The Hebrews were good record keepers, to say the least. If Abraham had wandered down to Mecca for an important holy construction project it seems they'd have mentioned it. If it's not important to you that the story's literal, I don't know what to say except that Muslims are very big on the literalism of any story important to them. And no, they are talking about the text being corrupted - portions lost and portions changed and portions added. You can't interpret the Christ, his sayings, the accounts of his death and resurrection, the whole ball of wax, in any way other than the way they are reported.

As Baha'u'llah said:

"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? . . . Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!"

One cannot simultaneously accept as genuine what the New Testament says about Christ, and what Muslims say about Christ.

 

[smaneck]

The Hebrews were good record keepers, to say the least. If Abraham had wandered down to Mecca for an important holy construction project it seems they'd have mentioned it.

Good record keepers? You realize that all accounts of Abraham life were written about a thousand years after him? During the time Abraham lived there was no alphabet!

If it's not important to you that the story's literal, I don't know what to say except that Muslims are very big on the literalism of any story important to them.

Just as is the case with Christians some are literalistic in their understanding and some are not.

And no, they are talking about the text being corrupted - portions lost and portions changed and portions added.

They may talk about it, but that is not what the Qur'an says.

One cannot simultaneously accept as genuine what the New Testament says about Christ, and what Muslims say about Christ.

I can state that what Jesus says about Himself in both the New Testament and the Qur'an is genuine.

 

[Chesterton]

I'd like to continue this if you want, but would you like me to start a new thread, here or maybe in the Debate Non-Christian Religions forum? Or just let it go? I gotta hit the sack shortly here.

 

[smaneck]

I'd like to continue this if you want, but would you like me to start a new thread, here or maybe in the Debate Non-Christian Religions forum? Or just let it go? I gotta hit the sack shortly here.

The rules of the debate forum don't let me participate on any debates on Islam.

 

[juvenissun]

No. One isn't a Jew through beliefs.

A Jew is someone who is either born of a Jewish mother or converts to Judaism. Christianity is not Judaism.

But a Christian believes every word in the Jewish Scripture. The difference is only on who is the Messiah. This is also a dispute among Jews. Why wouldn't a Christian also be counted as a Jew?

 

[LoAmmi]

But a Christian believes every word in the Jewish Scripture. The difference is only on who is the Messiah. This is also a dispute among Jews. Why wouldn't a Christian also be counted as a Jew?

Because it isn't about beliefs. It is about being born a Jew or formally converting. I don't know what to tell you. These are our rules to be part of us. Outsiders don't get to make new ones.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Being Jewish is more than following a set of beliefs, the best way to describe it is that it is a Tribe, because it really is. You may have Native American artifacts, know native beliefs and history, but that does not make you a Lakota.

 

[LoAmmi]

Being Jewish is more than following a set of beliefs, the best way to describe it is that it is a Tribe, because it really is. You may have Native American artifacts, know native beliefs and history, but that does not make you a Lakota.

That's a great way to put it.

 

[juvenissun]

Because it isn't about beliefs. It is about being born a Jew or formally converting. I don't know what to tell you. These are our rules to be part of us. Outsiders don't get to make new ones.

I think Hinduism is another similar religion to Judaism on this regard.
Do you know what is the population history of Jews who believed in Judaism?