rockytopva said in post 6617:
Christ comes in a time we think not... So this event cannot be post trib
Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Note that this verse, like Matthew 24:36,42, refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only
if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the
if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).
Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and preterist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?
Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the 1st verse means that no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the 2nd verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming.
Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).
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That is, Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).
It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).
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rockytopva said in post 6622:
Post and Mid tribbers do not understand the evil they bring into the world by watering down the hopes of the time we will be caught up in the sky and to meet with the previous saints in the air, where we will ever be with the Lord.
Regarding "the hopes", are you including the "blessed hope"?
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ . . .
If so, note that here Jesus' glorious appearing is his 2nd coming, when he will appear in glory (Matthew 24:30). And here the blessed hope is the hope of eternal life: "In hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2), "that blessed hope" (Titus 2:13), "the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:7), by which is meant the hope of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Also, Jesus himself is the hope of believers (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can people have eternal life (John 3:36).
Also, note that no Christians are hoping for the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't hoping for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).
rockytopva said in post 6622:
They do not see the error in that they are accelerating the pace of the great falling away.
Actually, what could contribute greatly to the falling away (of 2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1, Matthew 24:9-13) is the false hope of a pre-tribulation rapture, which Satan could be employing as a way of weakening the church, of keeping it from having any "root in itself" (Matthew 13:21), from having to face its fear of the tribulation and to overcome that fear (cf. Revelation 2:10-11, Hebrews 2:15).
And when a pre-tribulation rapture doesn't happen, Satan could use the idea of it as a great weapon with which to batter the faith of Christians during the suffering of the tribulation. He could say something like:
"O, you poor souls! So utterly deceived by that liar YHWH! How cruel of him to promise you a pre-trib rapture and get all your hopes up, only to pull the rug out from under you at the last moment! How he is laughing at you now in your suffering! Doesn't he even admit it in Proverbs 1:26 and Job 9:23? Yes, of course he does, just to spite you. How he hates you, my friends, how he hates all of humanity. All he wants to do is cause suffering, all this tribulation suffering. And this is only a prelude to the eternal torture which he will delight in forever. What a foul and cruel tyrant he is! But I will tell you a secret. He is not all-powerful as he pretends to be. Wasn't he fearful when man built the Tower of Babel? Of course he was, he even admitted it himself in Genesis 11:6, for he knows that when mankind becomes united, nothing can be restrained from it; it can do anything. Even storm heaven and overthrow him. And so he destroyed the unity of mankind, out of fear for himself and his tyranny".
Satan could go on:
"But look here, my friends. I do not hate you. I am no tyrant. Who is feeding you? Who is feeding your starving, crying little ones, while YHWH doesn't lift a finger to help you or them? I AM feeding you. I AM helping you. I AM your God, your true Lord, your beneficent Master. Fall down and worship me, Lucifer, and my human Son [the Antichrist], and His image, receive His mark on your hand or forehead, and together we will rise as one to fight against YHWH and destroy his foul tyranny once and for all. YHWH is coming soon to try to stop this unity which we are forging, to try to stop the blessed illumination and power which I Lucifer am bringing to all of mankind. But we will win, for nothing can be restrained from us; we can do anything, so long we do not allow him to break our unity".
Satan could continue:
"So, come, my friends, it is time for you to formally renounce YHWH, to curse him to his face and before all the world, that you might completely break free from his hypnotic spell, which has blinded you so long to his utter cruelty and hatred for mankind. And it is time, my friends, for you to formally announce your complete devotion to me, Lucifer, and to my Son, and to worship us in Spirit and in Truth, that you might receive the full Illumination of My Spirit within you, and feel my seething Power within your soul. You will become new creatures in Me, new creatures of Light, and Love for all mankind".
And with speeches such as this, Satan could utterly wear down the defenses of some already-completely-exhausted saints, whose strength of faith could not survive the long, horrible suffering of the tribulation, not only the suffering of themselves, but of their innocent little ones as well. They will be defeated by their doubts:
"How could a good God let this happen to me? How could a good God let my innocent little baby starve to an agonizingly painful death while he sits up and heaven and does nothing? No rapture, no manna, nothing. Not even a word of encouragement. Utter silence. Is he dead? Is he evil? What could possibly be the point of all this suffering? I can no longer serve such a 'God' as this. I will serve that God who proves his love for me by helping me, by feeding me, by feeding my precious little ones. You will know them by their fruits. Now I have seen the ultimate fruits of YHWH, and now I have seen the ultimate fruits of Lucifer and His Son. It is plain as day who is truly good and who is truly evil".
And so the love of many will grow cold toward YHWH (Matthew 24:12). They will show that they love their stomachs (Philippians 3:19) and their little ones more than they love God (Matthew 10:37b). They will show that their love of God wasn't based on who he is, their Creator (John 1:3) and Crucified Savior (Acts 20:28) and the Almighty Infinite God compared with whom all of mankind together is an infinitesimal speck of dust, worth less than nothing (Isaiah 40:15-18). No, their love of God was conditional upon what he gave them in this life: wealth, happiness, health, food, clothing, and the promise of a pre-trib rapture. Take all of these things away in the tribulation, and they, unlike Job (Job 1:21-22), will have no more reason to worship God, but only a reason to curse him (Job 2:9-10, Isaiah 8:21-22).
This will be the ultimate fruit of the prosperity gospel, the Americanized gospel of wealth and plenty and a pre-trib rapture: apostasy in the tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:3; 1 Timothy 4:1), a complete ignorance of such ideas as 1 Peter 4:12-13, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, and 1 Timothy 6:9-12, a complete denial of such ideas as Philippians 1:29, 2 Timothy 2:12, and Revelation 14:12-13.
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The lies which were presented above as being what Satan could say during the tribulation should be answered, in case any one of them might be niggling away at some believer's faith. They were presented to serve as vaccines, as it were, so that if a believer is in fact confronted with these lies during the future tribulation, his spiritual immune system, his faith, will have already been prepared to overcome them (Ephesians 6:16).
First, it was said to believers who were in the tribulation that God was cruel to promise them a pre-trib rapture and get all their hopes up, only to pull the rug out from under them at the last moment. The truth is that God has never promised believers a pre-trib rapture. No scripture ever refers to any such thing.
Second, it was said that God was laughing at the suffering of the believers in the tribulation, and Proverbs 1:26 and Job 9:23 were referenced. The truth is that God doesn't ever laugh at the suffering of believers (Psalms 116:15). Proverbs 1:26 is addressing those who have rejected God (Proverbs 1:24-33). And Job 9:23 is just the wrong opinion of Job during his great suffering; not everything he says is correct. For example, he says in Job 19:11 that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him, when in fact it wasn't God's wrath at all, but Satan's wrath. During the coming tribulation, Satan is going to have his cake and eat it too. Because of the mistaken pre-trib idea that all of the tribulation is God's wrath, instead of it being mostly Satan's wrath, Satan will get to cause a whole world of suffering during the tribulation and then blame it all on God and say that God did all of it, and people will believe Satan. He will get to present himself as the good guy, and God as the evil tyrant, when it will be Satan doing the evil, just as it was Satan doing the evil against Job.
Third, it was said that God hates all of humanity. The truth is that God hates only some of humanity, the vessels of wrath, those predestined by him to damnation before they were born (Romans 9:11-22). Now this will be where the rubber meets the road for many: Can they accept that the Infinite Creator has the right to do with his infinitesimal creatures (Isaiah 40:15,17) whatsoever he wants (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 4:11), or will they insist that God is unjust, evil, to predestine some people to damnation before they have done anything at all? To accept the former shows humility before God; to insist on the latter shows human, nay, Satanic, pride, for it attempts to set God's creatures above God himself: It is saying that infinitesimal humans are more important than the Infinite God and his will and pleasure. The truth of double predestination (Romans 9:11-24) is the ultimate test of our humility before God. No doubt Satan will employ this truth during the tribulation as his ultimate weapon to try to turn people away from God.
Fourth, it was said that all God wants to do is cause suffering, all the tribulation suffering. The truth is that God loves to care for his creatures (Psalms 104:10-18). He only brings suffering (chastening) to those he loves when they fall into sin and need to repent (Revelation 3:19). And the suffering which comes upon those who are already repentant (Acts 14:22, John 16:33, Philippians 1:29) can still work good things in them, such as patience (Romans 5:3) and a greater hope in the eternal glory to come (2 Corinthians 4:17). Suffering is an innate part of the fallen creation; it is universal (Romans 8:22). It is not like God himself is actively behind every instance of suffering. There can simply be natural disasters. And Satan and evil men cause tremendous amounts of suffering (e.g. Revelation 2:10, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7,10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4).
Fifth, it was said that God will delight in the eternal torture of the unsaved. The truth is that God will not take any pleasure in the unsaved's suffering per se (cf. Ezekiel 33:11). The only pleasure that he will take in connection with people being unsaved is that they will provide him an opportunity to show his wrath and to make his power known (Romans 9:22) forever (Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Mark 9:45-46). This again will be where the rubber meets the road for many: Will they accept that the Holy God has the right to eternally torture the unsaved as punishment for their free-willed sins (Romans 6:23, Revelation 21:8, James 1:13-15), or will they claim that they know better than God himself what is just and what is not just? If they accept the former, they will show humility before God, while if they claim the latter they will be placing themselves above God, making themselves the judge of God, and so will show the ultimate extent of their human and Satanic pride.
Sixth, it was said that God is not all-powerful as he pretends to be, and that he was fearful when man built the Tower of Babel; Genesis 11:6 was referenced. The truth is that God is all-powerful (Jeremiah 32:17,27), and he wasn't fearful for himself at all at the Tower of Babel. For all of mankind together is an infinitesimal speck, less than nothing compared with the Infinite, Almighty God (Isaiah 40:15,17). He was fearful only for what a fallen, united mankind, in its overweening pride, would end up doing to itself and the planet, or even to other planets, such as creating some huge scientific device which would end up blowing the earth to smithereens, or colonizing Mars and some moons of Jupiter only to utterly defile them with sin and pollution.
Seventh, it was said that Satan doesn't hate mankind, and that his feeding of mankind during the tribulation will prove his love for mankind. The truth is that Satan has wanted to murder all of mankind from the beginning (John 8:44). That is why he deceived Eve into committing sin (Genesis 3:4), so that all of mankind would become mortal and die (Romans 5:12). Now his hope is to drag as much of mankind as possible with him into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,15). He will do anything for men in the tribulation, give men anything they want in the tribulation, so long as he gets to see them ultimately tortured forever just as he will be (Matthew 25:41,46). So when he offers men bread and water and clothing and "love" during the tribulation, this will be a ruse, nothing but bait to get men onto the hook of rebellion against YHWH God, to get them to ultimately suffer eternal damnation (Revelation 14:10-11).
Eighth, and last, it was said that a good God would not let an innocent little baby starve to an agonizingly painful death during the tribulation while he sits up in heaven and does nothing. The truth is that this life, even if we live to be 100 years old, is nothing but a nanosecond compared with eternity. And death is better than life in this world for those who are saved, and for little babies who have been elected by God to salvation. For their death will take them into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8). Their death will be no loss, but gain for them, far better than any life in this fallen world (Philippians 1:21,23). Only those who wrongly love this world (1 John 2:15) and their life in it (John 12:25) are horrified by death. Satan uses the fear of death to keep people in bondage to himself and to his ways (Hebrews 2:15), to keep their sights on temporal things instead of on that which is eternal (2 Corinthians 4:18).
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This brings to mind how very difficult it will be for believers with children during the future tribulation, just as it will be very difficult for believers who are taking care of elderly parents during that time. For the Antichrist will no doubt use our closest relations as his strongest weapons against us. He could seize our child, or seize our parent, or for that matter, seize our beloved spouse, and then begin to torture them before our eyes. As they begin to shriek with pain and horror, he could say "Deny YHWH! Deny YHWH and the torture will stop. That's all you have to do, simply commit apostasy, and your loved one will be set free immediately".
If we hesitate, if we remain silent, with tears rolling down our faces, he could grab a knitting needle and thrust it into the eye of our loved one: "Deny YHWH! I tell you, you have not yet begun to see what I will do to your loved one should you remain obstinate and hold true to your vile, worthless, and utterly powerless God. You have seen nothing yet!"
If we bite our lips, try to avert our gaze from the horror before us, the Antichrist could have men seize our head and hold open our eyes: "Look at what you are causing! Your foolish stubbornness is ruining your loved one! Give in! Save your loved one!"
At this point our loved one could plead with us: "Please! O, please! Give in! Make this stop! Please, I beg you!"
We could crumple to our knees, vomiting, completely overwhelmed. And yet we could say nothing, make no response to the Antichrist whatsoever.
For we could be thinking within ourselves: "How will it help my loved one for me to give in and commit apostasy? Once they are released from this torture, they will be forced to commit apostasy themselves, and then we will both be forced to worship the Antichrist and his image and take his mark on our hand or forehead, to our utter and eternal damnation (Revelation 14:9-13). We will have traded an eternity of bliss with God for three or four years of slavery to the Antichrist. We will have gotten free of a merely temporary torture at the hands of the Antichrist, only to assure our eternal torture at the hands of God himself (Luke 12:4-5, Matthew 10:28)".
And we could be thinking: "I mustn't let my love for my loved one overcome my love for God (Matthew 10:37). And how would it be showing love for them to spare them a temporary torture only so that they can be subsequently railroaded by the Antichrist into apostasy and eternal torture?"
As we continue thinking, continue reasoning within ourselves, silently, the Antichrist could decide not to waste any more time with us or our loved one. He could raise his hand and summon two men with beheading swords to enter the torture chamber. Two other men could suddenly grab our hair and the hair of our loved one and pull our heads upward and straight so that our necks are at their fullest length. Then we could feel the cold steel of the blade on our neck for just a moment as it touches our hot skin before slicing cleanly through our necks and bringing us to a sudden, painless death, and into the arms of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23): "Well done! My good and faithful servant. Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord" (cf. Matthew 25:21, Psalms 16:11).
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2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us . . .
Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake . . .
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
