Negative Scientists Fear Aliens and Want us to evacuate Earth

[TLK Valentine]

And besides, if a lie is all it takes to free some slaves.... what's yet beef?

Because it wasn't -- and nobody... least of all the God who ordered the lie to be told (let that sink in for a moment) expected it to actually work.

Really all this was was an excuse for God to kill some Egyptians.... and to paraphrase James T. Kirk: What does God need with an excuse?

 

[Rick Otto]

Because it wasn't -- and nobody... least of all the God who ordered the lie to be told (let that sink in for a moment) expected it to actually work.

Really all this was was an excuse for God to kill some Egyptians.... and to paraphrase James T. Kirk: What does God need with an excuse?

Don't oversimplify.
The reason why for anything He does is in Romans 9:22-23.
The reason I know so well is because my wife "got religion" about 25yrs ago and I knew I had to learn the religion game better than the charismatic congregation she fell in with. It took about twelve years for her to realize how phony most the church goers are. I was raised RC, and smelled a rat in first grade catechism because "God" made a personal connection with me at 4yrs old that follows psalm 19.
I have lightly studied world religion and appreciate what is good in them, but this is my frame of reference, and I don't make superlative claims, I just hope my behavior speaks for itself.

One thing about the OT to remember (speaking of frames of reference) is that God is harsh because evolving from an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth to mercy took a lot of time and effort.
So James T Kirk was exactly right. There was a reason, not just an excuse.
Want me to show ya those verses I mentioned?
I won't make you chase them down.

 

[dad]

Sounds like the one fibbing here is you -- or possibly God:

To the dirty minds of dirty little men things seem dirty. However, if God directed Moses to start off with a three day party in the dessert, that would have been part of the pure big picture plan of God.

Ps 18:26 -with the pure you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you show yourself perverse.

You can't keep your own stories straight, can you?

Depends how much one reads into them.

Sounds like Pharaoh was agreeable until Moses deliberately antagonized him.

To you, maybe it sounds that way. Sounds more like Jesus was gracious and giving the evil ruler a chance to bow out gracefully, maybe save a little face by maybe starting off with just three days before leading up to total freedom. You don't like that slaves go free?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Cool! I missed that part. Give me the address of those verses. I gotta see that. (please)

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.

10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Pharaoh also states that he will let the Israelites go multiple times, but his heart is hardened each time before he acts on it. Depending on the translation, he either hardens his own heart, or god does, but even in the former translations, there usually are one or two cases where it is god doing the hardening.

I misread for the Pharaoh crying though: there is so much crying going on in those verses.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Don't oversimplify.
The reason why for anything He does is in Romans 9:22-23.
The reason I know so well is because my wife "got religion" about 25yrs ago and I knew I had to learn the religion game better than the charismatic congregation she fell in with. It took about twelve years for her to realize how phony most the church goers are. I was raised RC, and smelled a rat in first grade catechism because "God" made a personal connection with me at 4yrs old that follows psalm 19.
I have lightly studied world religion and appreciate what is good in them, but this is my frame of reference, and I don't make superlative claims, I just hope my behavior speaks for itself.

One thing about the OT to remember (speaking of frames of reference) is that God is harsh because evolving from an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth to mercy took a lot of time and effort.
So James T Kirk was exactly right. There was a reason, not just an excuse.
Want me to show ya those verses I mentioned?
I won't make you chase them down.

Are you implying that god has a harder time with the basics of forgiveness and kindness than the average human?

 

[TLK Valentine]

One thing about the OT to remember (speaking of frames of reference) is that God is harsh because evolving from an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth to mercy took a lot of time and effort.

Mercy can be quite difficult to One who is unaccustomed to it.

 

[dad]

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.

10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Pharaoh also states that he will let the Israelites go multiple times, but his heart is hardened each time before he acts on it. Depending on the translation, he either hardens his own heart, or god does, but even in the former translations, there usually are one or two cases where it is god doing the hardening.

I misread for the Pharaoh crying though: there is so much crying going on in those verses.

So the weak man promises and then renegs. There comes a point after we harden our own heart enough, over time, that God cuts some folks loose. That may be referred to as hardening their hearts...that they already hardened of course. It seems to denote a point of no return. Even for a nation there comes that time, and it is no longer any use to even pray for that nation to be saved.

 

[Rick Otto]

Are you implying that god has a harder time with the basics of forgiveness and kindness than the average human?

I am not implying anything, I am asserting the reverse. Switch God and the average human around in your sentence, and that is my message.

 

[TLK Valentine]

So the weak man promises and then renegs. There comes a point after we harden our own heart enough, over time, that God cuts some folks loose.

Problem is that according to the Bible, Pharaoh didn't harden his own heart -- God did it for him.... or rather, to him.

Free will can be such an inconvenience... but as always, there are ways around it.

That may be referred to as hardening their hearts...that they already hardened of course. It seems to denote a point of no return. Even for a nation there comes that time, and it is no longer any use to even pray for that nation to be saved.

There certainly was no return from God hardening Pharaoh's heart...

 

[TLK Valentine]

I am not implying anything, I am asserting the reverse. Switch God and the average human around in your sentence, and that is my message.

And yet, God didn't quite grasp the basics of forgiveness and kindness until He manifested as a human... then, it became the focus of His ministry...

 

[dad]

Problem is that according to the Bible, Pharaoh didn't harden his own heart -- God did it for him.... or rather, to him.

Free will can be such an inconvenience... but as always, there are ways around it.




There certainly was no return from God hardening Pharaoh's heart...

False. I just read where Pharoah hardened his own heart. Later, he gets beyond hope of repentance so God steps in and seals the deal.

 

[TLK Valentine]

False. I just read where Pharoah hardened his own heart. Later, he gets beyond hope of repentance so God steps in and seals the deal.

That's funny -- I just read this thing called "The Bible" (stop me if you have heard this one) that said some guy called "The Lord" hardened Pharaoh's heart...

 

[dad]

That's funny -- I just read this thing called "The Bible" (stop me if you have heard this one) that said some guy called "The Lord" hardened Pharaoh's heart...

There is more thsn one verse in that bible! Leave your bias and grudges snd get with it.

 

[The Cadet]

False. I just read where Pharoah hardened his own heart. Later, he gets beyond hope of repentance so God steps in and seals the deal.

Which verse is that?

 

[TLK Valentine]

There is more thsn one verse in that bible! Leave your bias and grudges snd get with it.

More than one verse, you say? Indeed:

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:


Shall I continue?

 

[Rick Otto]

And yet, God didn't quite grasp the basics of forgiveness and kindness until He manifested as a human... then, it became the focus of His ministry...

no, no... respectfully... of course He grasped it. He was teaching it to us by first showing us what it is not. The law had to be established before people could even realize they were doing wrong.

How can a will (or anything) be free of what it was created to be?
a lot of christians don't get this. God knowing all things, knew what He was creating and how everything He created would exist from beginning to end. Some seem to think He had to peek into a future He created to find out.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I am not implying anything, I am asserting the reverse. Switch God and the average human around in your sentence, and that is my message.

If the reverse were true, 80% of the events in the OT would not have happened. A forgiving being does not punish the slightest of perceived wrongs with violence.

 

[PsychoSarah]

no, no... respectfully... of course He grasped it. He was teaching it to us by first showing us what it is not. The law had to be established before people could even realize they were doing wrong.

How can a will (or anything) be free of what it was created to be?
a lot of christians don't get this. God knowing all things, knew what He was creating and how everything He created would exist from beginning to end. Some seem to think He had to peek into a future He created to find out.

That would mean that God knowingly makes people that exist purely to suffer. People with awful lives that, thanks to no exposure to the "true religion", also are doomed to go to hell. There is no justice in a system that punishes on the basis of belief. Furthermore, there are people such as myself, that want to believe, but can't due to their mind developing in such a way as to not perceive sufficient evidence for the existence of a deity. Not saying that the evidence exists, just that I don't view any information I have been exposed to thus far as being sufficient enough evidence for the existence of deities as to make a believer out of me.

One of the hardest things to make people understand is that what we believe is not fully a conscious choice. For example, unless you are color blind (and thus have uncertainty in what color the sky is) or had never seen the sky, you could never hope to make yourself think that the sky was silver with a gold stripe pattern. Try as hard as you might, but in the end, you will always know that you are lying to yourself. I have been seeking belief for years. To me, atheism is agony; it's a personal problem with being unable to handle mortality.

Do you know the despair of the death of a loved one for a person who believes that death is the end of existence? Do you know the pain of watching more and more people be lost to oblivion, with no hope of ever seeing them again, and no comfort in them being in a better place, or any place for that matter? Do you know the fear of knowing each day brings you closer and closer to the same fate?

If you do, I would imagine it peeks through as doubt in your own faith. That little taste of misery rarely compares to that of a person that honestly thinks it highly improbable that an afterlife exists.

Most atheists manage to eventually accept life and death for what they are, but I highly doubt that I ever will.

 

[PsychoSarah]

So the weak man promises and then renegs. There comes a point after we harden our own heart enough, over time, that God cuts some folks loose. That may be referred to as hardening their hearts...that they already hardened of course. It seems to denote a point of no return. Even for a nation there comes that time, and it is no longer any use to even pray for that nation to be saved.

So much for being a loving God, if it is willing to cut some people loose just because they use their free will to not be perfect worship robots.

 

[TLK Valentine]

no, no... respectfully... of course He grasped it. He was teaching it to us by first showing us what it is not.

Sounds like, "I beat you so you can learn to appreciate it when I stop beating you..."