Failed Prophecy of the Church

[ChetSinger]

There was no monolithic religion to be identified as THE Judaism, 2,000 years ago.

I can agree with that. The Sadducees and Pharisees, for example, and different beliefs concerning the afterlife.

Yes, Christianity started out as a sect within the wider realm of Judaism, but its rise to prominence (and its development towards the theological identity we know today) started only after the ascendancy of gentile Christianity with its mystery religion elements.

I think I can only partially agree with that. While the rise to prominence came with the increased Gentile numbers, the theological identity of who Jesus is and what he did originate in the NT, such as in John, Romans, and Hebrews.

There's even a good chance that the last remnants of the original Jewish Christians were later reviled as the first heretics, called "Ebionites".

Perhaps that's so. I did some reading on the Ebionites. They remind me of the opponents Paul described in Galatians: Jewish believers who believed the law should still be kept, even by Gentiles. Perhaps they were the descendants of those who rejected in the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 which exempted Gentiles from the law.

Anti-Judaism has a millennia-spanning history in Christian tradition, and its scriptures are only accepted if seen through the lens of retroactive continuity, i.e. with the "New Testament" pretty much informing the way the "Old" is to be read and understood.

In the churches I've attended over the years (various US Protestant ones) the Hebrew scriptures are accepted and taught as true and inspired by God.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

In the churches I've attended over the years (various US Protestant ones) the Hebrew scriptures are accepted and taught as true and inspired by God.

Try giving them the traditional Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53.

Anti-Judaism has not been a major factor in American protestantism since ca. 1945, and the conservative Right is a staunch supporter of zionist Israel to this day. That does not detract from a nearly 2,000 year long history of animosity, open hostility and persecution aimed at Jews, however. And the reason given for this hostility was religious rather than ethnic, up until the 19th century.

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

There was no monolithic religion to be identified as THE Judaism, 2,000 years ago. Yes, Christianity started out as a sect within the wider realm of Judaism, but its rise to prominence (and its development towards the theological identity we know today) started only after the ascendancy of gentile Christianity with its mystery religion elements. There's even a good chance that the last remnants of the original Jewish Christians were later reviled as the first heretics, called "Ebionites".


Anti-Judaism has a millennia-spanning history in Christian tradition, and its scriptures are only accepted if seen through the lens of retroactive continuity, i.e. with the "New Testament" pretty much informing the way the "Old" is to be read and understood.

1. Ebionites WERE heretics , they denied the virgin birth , Jewish Christians accepted it , the Ebionites were a split off , and that is well documented among the Fathers

2. What is your point with the Anti Judaism thing, Christianity as a whole has been Anti Judaism yes , but anti Jewish ? no despite popular belief

 

[Arthra]

Do the Baha’i believe Jesus rose from the dead?

In a spiritual sense we believe in the resurrection...but not as to the corporeal body.

As to the resurrection of the body of Christ three days subsequent to His departure: This signifies the divine teachings and spiritual religion of His Holiness Christ, which constitute His spiritual body, which is living and perpetual forevermore.

By the "three days" of His death is meant that after the great martyrdom, the penetration of the divine teachings and the spread of the spiritual law became relaxed on account of the crucifixion of Christ. For the disciples were somewhat troubled by the violence of divine tests. But when they became firm, that divine spirit resurrected and that body -- which signifies the divine word -- arose.

Likewise the address of the angels to the people of Galilee, "That this Christ will return in the same way and that He will descend from heaven," is a spiritual address. For when Christ appeared, He came from heaven, although He was outwardly born from the womb of Mary. For He said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."

He said: "I came down from heaven and likewise will go to heaven." By "heaven" is not meant this infinite phenomenal space, but "heaven" signifies the word of the divine kingdom which is the supreme station and seat of the Sun of Truth.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 191)

 

[smaneck]

I don't know Baha'i much, neither on Islam. But I know Baha'i does not agree with the violent nature of Islam. That is a very very significant difference. There is no Baha'i terrorist.

I don't believe that Islam's 'nature' is violent. Yes, Islam does lay down the rules of a just war (as did St. Augustine.) However, it is true that Baha'u'llah abolished jihad entirely. Jesus changed a number of the laws of the Tanakh was well.

 

[smaneck]

Christianity respects Mosaic Laws to the last single word.

So you respect the Mosaic law that calls for the stoning of disobedient children?

 

[smaneck]

They are not a counts. They are logic symbols.

???

 

[smaneck]

1. Ebionites WERE heretics , they denied the virgin birth , Jewish Christians accepted it , the Ebionites were a split off , and that is well documented among the Fathers

According to Eusebius some Ebionites denied the virgin birth and some did not.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It might be the difference between a promise and declaring something then that I'm thinking of. For example, Abraham was promised that his descendants would be a great nation. That promise was never revoked despite how bad people acted. So, that might be what I'm thinking about. Like the promise is binding because the Lord gave His word whereas if He says "if you do this, I'll do this" it can be revoked.

Wasn't the promise that was made to Abram to pass thru to Isaac than Jacob/Israel? The Christian NT book of Hebrews also mentions that..........

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Gen 26:
2 The LORD appeared to Isaac and said, "Do not go down to Egypt; settle down in the land that I will point out to you.

3 Stay in this land. Then I will be with you and will bless you, for I will give all these lands to you and to your descendants, and I will fulfill the solemn promise I made to your father Abraham.

Heb 11:
9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the promised land as though it were a foreign country,
living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, who were fellow heirs of the same promise.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He had received the promises, yet he was ready to offer up his only son.

18 God had told him, "Through Isaac descendants will carry on your name,"

20 By faith also Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning the future



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[juvenissun]

I don't believe that Islam's 'nature' is violent. Yes, Islam does lay down the rules of a just war (as did St. Augustine.) However, it is true that Baha'u'llah abolished jihad entirely. Jesus changed a number of the laws of the Tanakh was well.

Are you able to give an example? I don't think such an example exist.

 

[LoAmmi]

Wasn't the promise that was made to Abram to pass thru to Isaac than Jacob/Israel? The Christian NT book of Hebrews also mentions that..........

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Gen 26:
2 The LORD appeared to Isaac and said, "Do not go down to Egypt; settle down in the land that I will point out to you.

3 Stay in this land. Then I will be with you and will bless you, for I will give all these lands to you and to your descendants, and I will fulfill the solemn promise I made to your father Abraham.

Heb 11:
9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the promised land as though it were a foreign country,
living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, who were fellow heirs of the same promise.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He had received the promises, yet he was ready to offer up his only son.

18 God had told him, "Through Isaac descendants will carry on your name,"

20 By faith also Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning the future



.

Yep, but Jacob took Easu's blessing. Unsurprisingly, Jacob didn't have the best life.

 

[juvenissun]

So you respect the Mosaic law that calls for the stoning of disobedient children?

Yes.
You may use other examples described in the Torah. The answers are still yes.
The current society has a different ways of doing the similar. But basically, the answer is still yes. For example, while many Muslims do not wear the head scarf, you still do. Right? I say all women should do the same.

 

[LoAmmi]

So you respect the Mosaic law that calls for the stoning of disobedient children?

Oh, I love that one. I especially love it when people just throw it out there as if it's something that would ever happen just because a child misbehaved.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So you respect the Mosaic law that calls for the stoning of disobedient children?

How many people are shown being stoned in the Christian NT? I know of Stephen in Acts for one.....

John 10:33
Answered Him, the Judeans saying, "about a good work not we are Stoning Thee, but about blasphemy, and that Thou being a man are making thyself a god ".

Acts 7:
56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [the Lord], and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"

Reve 16:21
And great Hail as a talent-weight is descending out of the Heaven upon the men.
And the men blaspheme the God out of the blow of the Hail, that great is the blow of it, tremendous.


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

As a consequence, the legions were able to build their redoubts almost without any trouble; soon, their catapults started to throw heavy stones into the city. Under cover of this artillery fire, the Roman soldiers could start to bash the northern wall with their battering-rams......

The Babylon of Revelation is Referring to Jerusalem

5 - Great hail weighing one talent is said to fall upon men there (Revelation 16:21).
Josephus tells of the Roman catapults being used to cast whitewashed boulders over the walls of Jerusalem and they each weighed one talent.




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[smaneck]

Are you able to give an example? I don't think such an example exist.

Well, let's see. There are the laws covering divorce and the laws regarding the Sabbath. When we get to Acts of the Apostles dietary restrictions are removed as well. I'll leave it to you decide whether this was with Christ's authority. And Paul insisted that Christians were free from works of the Law in its entirety. Again, I'll leave it to you to decide whether he had Christ's authority to do this.

 

[smaneck]

Oh, I love that one. I especially love it when people just throw it out there as if it's something that would ever happen just because a child misbehaved.

Relax, I'm not suggesting that Jews today would do such a thing. But it is in the text. And some Christian Reconstructionalists seem to think it is a good idea.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...-Rebellious-Children-To-Death-Per-Deuteronomy

My point, of course, is that virtually all the things people are condemning in the Qur'an are found in the Bible as well. And if you are going to call Muhammad a 'warlord' the same charge applies to Moses.

 

[LoAmmi]

Relax, I'm not suggesting that Jews today would do such a thing. But it is in the text. And some Christian Reconstructionalists seem to think it is a good idea.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...-Rebellious-Children-To-Death-Per-Deuteronomy

My point, of course, is that virtually all the things people are condemning in the Qur'an are found in the Bible as well. And if you are going to call Muhammad a 'warlord' the same charge applies to Moses.

I didn't mean you, I just meant that people put it out there. According to our sages, it was something put in there that would never happen.

 

[smaneck]

How many people are shown being stoned in the Christian NT? I know of Stephen in Acts for one.....

Not the question. I asked if you respected the Mosaic law in regards to stoning people to death. Requires a yes or no answer.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

As a consequence, the legions were able to build their redoubts almost without any trouble; soon, their catapults started to throw heavy stones into the city. Under cover of this artillery fire, the Roman soldiers could start to bash the northern wall with their battering-rams......

The Babylon of Revelation is Referring to Jerusalem

5 - Great hail weighing one talent is said to fall upon men there (Revelation 16:21).
Josephus tells of the Roman catapults being used to cast whitewashed boulders over the walls of Jerusalem and they each weighed one talent.

And this is relevant, how?


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[smaneck]

Yes.

Then there is no grounds for condemning what is in the Qur'an. And by the way, stoning people to death was not in the Qur'an. It is based on rather dubious ahadith.

For example, while many Muslims do not wear the head scarf, you still do. Right?

a. I'm not a Muslim.

b. I've never worn a head scarf in my entire life.

I say all women should do the same.

Paul would agree with you. I would not. Baha'is believe in the equality of women and men.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Oh, I love that one. I especially love it when people just throw it out there as if it's something that would ever happen just because a child misbehaved.

Well, I'd say that no offense would ever justify such a gruesome and utterly monstrous form of execution, and that attributing it to a deity does not paint the same in a favourable light at all. Capital punishment is problematic enough in and of itself, but dragging a screaming human to the edge of the village before pelting her/him to death in an excruciating process (or "allowing" their relatives to try to knock them out/kill them with an initial hit to the head) is just SO much worse.

There are no excuses, except "it happened a long time ago, in considerably more savage times. And deities had nothing to do with it."