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(moved) Can the Philosophical Approach of "Reformed" Protestantism lead out of Christianity?

Does Reformed Protestantism have a direct apostolic basis to consider the Eucharist only symbolic?


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JM

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This is only one of the four alternatives to the Reformed naturalistic idea that Jesus is not in the bread like He said that He was in the plain meaning of his speech. So you are still left with the other three alternatives.

Just to be clear the Anglican 39 Articles express the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper.

XXVIII. Of the Lord's Supper.
The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another, but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.

Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.

The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper, is Faith.

The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.

Quote: Cranmer asserted that the faithful communicant "spiritually" ate and drank "the very flesh and blood of Christ, which is in heaven and sitteth on the right hand of his Father." The Covenant Sealed by Holifield
 
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rakovsky

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The woman with Jesus is one where it wasn’t intentional. Of course that’s also not really a relic, since Jesus was still wearing it!
What do you mean not intentional? The woman intentionally touched Jesus' clothes, and he approved of her action, even though he didn't intend it. Yes, it's not a "relic" by definition, but that is not really the issue in my second question, which was broader and really concerned not just relics strictly speaking, but similar things like whether just being in the presence of a holy person, getting under his shadow, or touching his clothes could cause miracles. The Reformed would normally take a dim view of this.

You got a good reading of this in a post above. The normal Reformed view is that miracles were given to the Apostles to get the Church started, but that they didn’t continue beyond the Apostolic age. There’s no doubt about Scriptural miracles. The doubt was about later miracles.
The Reformed don't believe that miracles continued past the Apostolic age?
I don't think so. It seems that stories of occasional miracles after 150 AD have been rather common anecdotes among the Reformed for a long time, like God healing some person's illness after they prayed with other Christians, etc. I am not even sure if it can be said that Calvinists are skeptical about miracles today. PCUSA or PCA might be, but there are Charismatic "Reformed" Christians who claim common miracles.

Hedrick, I can't figure out what to say about Calvinists' attitudes about miracles' frequency in the last 100 years or so. I do agree with you that Calvinists would think that the miracles faded after 150 AD because they commonly claim/imagine that God's control over the Church left at about that time (even though somehow the spirit was strong enough to succeed with the Councils, per Calvinism). But Calvinists seem much more comfortable about miracle claims within their own sects than they are about very analogous miracle claims in the other sects like Catholicism that involve relics.

So it looks like Calvinists take a dim view of relic miracles and of miracles in the Catholic Church after AD 150, but they make an exception for isolated cases of relic miracles in the Bible. If you follow the Calvinist approach the whole way, you could end up being dismissive of the Biblical relic miracles, imagining that Paul had no idea what his clothes were used for.

Note that by the 16th Cent it’s pretty clear that most use of relics actually was superstitious.
How do you know this and how was it superstitious? When people pray for healing and use a normal cross form a store, does it mean their healing won't happen if it's not the real one? If the healing could still happen, maybe a fake "authentic" cross of Jesus from Palestine could work a healing too. Who knows, although if it's fake of course I am more skeptical about its miracles.

You can understand why that would lead to a certain skepticism about post-Biblical miracles. Of course Calvin’s real objection wasn’t to relics as a source of miracles but to veneration of the relics.
Calvin objected to both in the essay you linked me to earlier. For example, he wrote:
"I know well that there is a certain appearance of real devotion and zeal in the allegation, that the relics of Jesus Christ are preserved on account of the honor which is rendered to him, and in order the better to preserve his memory. But it is necessary to consider what St Paul says, that every service of God invented by man, whatever appearance of wisdom it may have, is nothing better than vanity and foolishness, if it has no other foundation than our own devising. ... In short, the desire for relics is never without superstition, and what is worse, it is usually the parent of idolatry."​

In other words, he perceives the desire of relics to be a "service... invented by man", and even when there is no issue of idolatry, it is still always from superstition in his view. Yet in the case of Acts 19, the faithful Christians had a desire for Paul's relics.


Witherington is not clear whether Paul knew they would be used this way. Why would Paul give multiple "handkerchiefs"? Did he think all the people who requested them need cloths to wipe their hands? And how did Acts know that miracles were wrought, unless they told Paul? (~Rakovsky)
No, he said that Paul intended them to be used for healing.
Thanks, Hedrick. I missed it where he wrote that. (Some pages were not viewable to me).

Peace.
 
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rakovsky

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Forgetting the classical Reformed view, I am personally not so clear that spiritual gifts ended at the end of the Apostolic age.
Yes, even at a "rationalistic" level it seems strange to imagine that Jesus gave the 70 apostles spiritual gifts, but then in 150 AD or so when they died, the spiritual gifts basically died too. It means that the gifts could not be passed on. Yet we know from 1 Corinthians 11-15 that non-apostles did have plenty of spiritual gifts in Paul's lifetime, so one need not be an apostle or meet Jesus in person to get the gifts. If grace and the Spirit filled the Church in 50 AD and gave gifts, one would expect the same to be true from the spirit in 160 AD.

This is a third reason I think why the Reformed view could lead out of Christianity: If some Reformed look around at people allegedly filled with the spirit and see no gifts and miracles, and dismiss the Catholics' miracle claims, then it seems that if this same skepticism kind of is brought to bear on the early Christian writings, freed from the "anchor" of following Tradition (ie the Church's interpretations), a rationalistic Christian could conclude that Paul's spirit-filled miracles were "superstitions" too. The Reformed would reply that we "follow the scripture", but what it means to "follow scripture" is questionable when one no longer needs to follow the Christian community's (ie the Church's) reading of the Bible. Conservative Quakers, Lutherans, Zwinglians, Calvinists, and Catholics all claim to follow Scripture on the Eucharist, yet they reach rather different conclusions on what this means.

I think there’s a difference between someone praying for healing, whether they hand you a handkerchief or not, and the bones of someone long dead that seem to have power in themselves. Even when Jesus himself healed, he attributed it to the Father, and to prayer. The idea of power remaining in bones seems quite a different thing, more magic than prayer.
And yet in the story of Elisha's bones, the bones did revive a person whose corpse touched them. It's hard to think then that an apron could heal someone but bones couldn't. Note also please my discussion on the relationship of bones/a corpse to a person's soul in ancient Judaism: http://www.christianforums.com/thre...of-christianity.7929431/page-11#post-69209517

Sure, Jesus attributed the healing to God. But do Catholics say "My picture/ikon of Jesus healed me" if they prayed in front of a miracle-working religious painting/ikon? It seems more that they say that Jesus healed them. Just because a person attributes the healing to God doesn't contradict the role of some object in it.

For what it's worth, I happen to think that many Protestants in real life use paintings and crosses during their prayers, despite their philosophy against use of objects and relics.

As someone who accepts the critical approach to Scripture, I’m actually a bit skeptical of stories like Jesus’ shadow, which didn’t involve Jesus praying for the person. I’m sure Jesus’ was a healer. It’s too basic a motif in his ministry and people’s reaction to it. But that doesn’t mean that stories didn’t grow up along the lines of 1st Cent expectations of power. This isn’t a Reformed issue, but rather would be shared by the mainline / liberal people from all theological traditions.
What is the story about Jesus' shadow that you are skeptical about? It was Peter's shadow that is mentioned in Acts, not Jesus'.

Calvin thought that the story of Peter's shadow was real:
For the apostles were endued with such power for this cause, because they were ministers of the gospel. Therefore they used this gift, inasmuch as it served to further the credit of the gospel; yea, God did no less show forth his power in their shadow than in their mouth. (http://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/acts/5.htm)​

But even taking the stories at face value, in the story of the woman touching Jesus’ garment, I believe this was intended as an example of Jesus’ spiritual power, not the holiness of his garment. Similarly, healing in Peter’s shadow was shown as an example of the power of the Apostles.
And yet that power passed through the help of the garment of Jesus, as it says that Jesus felt power leave him when she touched him. Whether the garment's holiness was shown, in any case my main point is that it played a role, but Reformed look down on the role of holy objects in healings.

I don’t think those passages would be warrant for saving Jesus’ garment for centuries as a holy object. The power didn’t come from the garment but the person wearing it.
Sure, the power came from the person, but then it was associated enough with the garment for this process to heal someone. And if it or Paul's clothes healed someone in 30 AD, why couldn't they do so 300 years later? Does God's power fade out like a grounded electrical wire? Elisha's own bones revived someone long after Elisha's death - after Elisha's own body had decomposed.

Again, I am not hard core opposed to relics. If we had something that we had good reason to think Jesus actually wore, that would be sort of cool, and I’m sure we’d show it to people. But I wouldn’t endorse venerating it or putting it anyplace in a Church sanctuary that might suggest worship.
Yes, it would be cool. But I think it is good to have them in a Church to remind us of him. Church is a building where we go to meditate on Jesus and God. If Jesus wore or used certain things, it seems helpful to keep them to better conceptualize and remember him, to focus our prayers on him. Protestants use the cross and paintings in church in a similar way to focus prayers.
 
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rakovsky

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So based on that you imagine he brought trinkets, baubles, and souvenirs on the trip?
There are movies based on what is not in scripture.
That's where your ideas belong.
Hello. It says in Acts that Paul gave out his handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched his skin for healings. Reformed would not normally agree with holy people doing that, just like your mindset would make fun of holy people for bringing "trinkets" like crosses to inspire hundreds of people to become Christian.
I am not sure what your point is.
 
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rakovsky

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Like on hoarders?
A Man Clings To His Piles Of Dragon Bones

Nope. Nothing in this material world is sacred. Keep reading.

15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
This is not meant that nothing material is sacred in any way, otherwise Jesus' material body wouldn't resurrect, nor would the bones of holy people in Daniel's and Isaiah's prophecies.
And if their bones are so sacred, this explains why Elijah's made revivification.
 
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hedrick

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There is a difference between the ubiquity of Christ’s body and miracles of other kinds. There’s no question that God can raise the dead, or heal. There’s no logical problem with someone being healed. If it was a miracle (and not a normal function of resurrected bodies) there’s also no problem with God making Jesus’ body go through walls. I think, however, that there is a logical problem with God making Jesus’ body be omnipresent. It’s not a question of whether God has the power to do it, but of whether the thing makes any sense. It’s like asking whether God has the power to make square triangles.

One could imagine that after death there’s no body. We’re all some kind of spirit, and we all intermingle with each other. But both Lutherans and Reformed seem to agree that after death we have something like bodies which have boundaries and are separated from each other. It doesn’t make sense for something that is defined as having boundaries to be omnipresent. Christ could, of course, be omnipresent in a different form. There’s no reason that he should be limited to a body. It might also be that resurrected bodies don’t have boundaries, although I question whether at that point they would be close enough to what we think of as a body for that word to be a useful designation. But Lutherans never claimed any of this, because they agreed that Jesus’ human nature wouldn’t of itself be ubiquitous. So the claim that the body is ubiquitous says that he has a body that has boundaries that doesn’t have boundaries. That’s a square triangle.

My position on things like God making a square triangle is that God may well be able to do things that we can’t describe, but he can’t do things that are properly described by a contradiction, because contradictory descriptions don’t mean anything. Thus I claim that a ubiquitous body is a meaningless term. Christ might well be ubiquitous. He might well both have a body and also be ubiquitous. But to say that he has a ubiquitous body is to make a statement with no meaning. It doesn't rise to the level of being false. It may however be suggestive, and be true as something like a metaphor. My sense is that the Lutheran language is not literal, and that its actual meaning is the same as Calvin's. That seems to be what Calvin thought.

This is mostly not an argument against actual Lutherans, but against some of what I'm seeing here. Most Lutheran writers qualify statements about Christ's ubiquity, saying that it doesn't mean that he is locally present everywhere or some such. I think if you tried to nail down those qualifications, you'd find that the language is in fact being used non-literally So I doubt that there is much real difference with the Reformed view.
 
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SkyWriting

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This is not meant that nothing material is sacred in any way, otherwise Jesus' material body wouldn't resurrect, nor would the bones of holy people in Daniel's and Isaiah's prophecies.

There is much more to read on the subject.
 
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rakovsky

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Hello, JM!
Just to be clear the Anglican 39 Articles express the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper.

XXVIII. Of the Lord's Supper.
The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another, but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.

Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.

The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper, is Faith.

The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.

Quote: Cranmer asserted that the faithful communicant "spiritually" ate and drank "the very flesh and blood of Christ, which is in heaven and sitteth on the right hand of his Father." The Covenant Sealed by Holifield
There is some ambiguity, I find in whether this can be consistent or inclusive of the Lutheran view or a version of "Consubstantiation". The state plainly "the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ" sounds at face value to accept the Lutheran view. The Catholic idea is clearly excluded.

Calvin would say that the means for "eating" the body is faith. Calvin added further that this is not an actual "eating". For Lutheranism, the eating is part of the direct process and direct means of receipt of the body. So there is some ambiguity about the part in blue, but I tend to think it agrees more with Calvin's idea.

Also, I find it strange that it says that the Eucharist was not carried about or reserved. It seems quite sensible to me that if someone was sick and could not make it to a Eucharistic gathering that the Eucharist could be brought to that person. We can bring people food after a meal that they couldn't attend as leftovers, and I presume that it would be reasonable to bring the Communion food home to those people too.

Cranmer I heard was close to some version of the Reformed view of Bucer, while among Anglicans in general there is a range of views.
 
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rakovsky

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Hello, Hedrick!
There is a difference between the ubiquity of Christ’s body and miracles of other kinds. There’s no question that God can raise the dead, or heal. There’s no logical problem with someone being healed. If it was a miracle (and not a normal function of resurrected bodies) there’s also no problem with God making Jesus’ body go through walls. I think, however, that there is a logical problem with God making Jesus’ body be omnipresent. It’s not a question of whether God has the power to do it, but of whether the thing makes any sense. It’s like asking whether God has the power to make square triangles.
OK. Once you exclude the laws of physics and you do not make Jesus' transfigured spirit body confined to space and you allow the spirit body to overlap with other objects (like Jesus' body passing through a wall), then naturally the body could be omnipresent.
Remember, in Genesis God walked in Eden, and Moses saw God's feet on Sinai. God is omnipresent, yet in some sense he can have or show visible feet. This can be because he has a spirit body.

What exactly is the problem with conceiving of omnipresence? It's because of the restrictions of the "ordinary laws of nature", as Calvin himself said. They normally prevent a body from doing things like being in two places at once or passing through a wall. Once those restrictions go away and ordinary laws of nature don't apply and bodies and spirit objects can overlap, then there is no problem conceiving of a transformed spirit body being omnipresent.

In the case of a square triangle, it's important to remember the gospel teaching that "all things are possible with God." At face value, a square triangle does not sound possible, because we normally think of this in the second dimension of shapes. But once we add dimensions to things, other possibilities may open up. A shape that from one angle appears a triangle may from another angle appear a square.

tumblr_na4fq4RXbh1rpco88o1_500.gif

This cool 3D shape can be projected along three orthogonal axes resulting in a perfect square, a perfect circle and a perfect triangle. George Hart made this solid with a 3D printer... http:// curiosamathematica.tumblr. com /post/96525017825/
this-cool-3d-shape-can-be-projected-along-three

Likewise, if we accept that Jesus is in a transfigured spirit body, add in ideas like dimensions, then we can see that our ordinary understanding of natural laws may not apply so strictly. This would allow the possibility for Jesus' body to do things like ascend, appear in more than one place at once, or pass through walls, regardless of Calvin's demand that Jesus' body obey the "ordinary laws of nature".


One could imagine that after death there’s no body. We’re all some kind of spirit, and we all intermingle with each other. But both Lutherans and Reformed seem to agree that after death we have something like bodies which have boundaries and are separated from each other.
Perhaps Lutherans are not so rigid about this though, and don't rule out that at times the spirit bodies could intersect? Two shapes can intersect with eachother. So can two objects. Once physical intersectionality is allowed and bodies are not confined to space as per the "ordinary laws of nature", the body could be conceived of as intersecting or passing through another like light, ghosts, angels, and Jesus' body are conceived of as passing through walls.

It doesn’t make sense for something that is defined as having boundaries to be omnipresent.
Christ could, of course, be omnipresent in a different form. There’s no reason that he should be limited to a body.
There are numerous ways to solve this seeming problem.
Christ's human body could differ from normal human bodies in that he has the hypostatic union, which according to Leo's Tome from Chalcedon allows Christ's body to act in seeming contradiction to his human nature. So even if human bodies must always retain boundaries, perhaps Christ's does not.

How does it make sense for something that has boundaries to pass through walls like Christ's body did? One must answer this by saying that Christ's fleshly body can pass through solid objects or materialize ex-nihilio right in the middle of a physical mass of air particles, despite the "boundaries" of his body. It must be again that neither ordinary laws nor objects' boundaries restrict his body.

It might also be that resurrected bodies don’t have boundaries, although I question whether at that point they would be close enough to what we think of as a body for that word to be a useful designation.

But Lutherans never claimed any of this, because they agreed that Jesus’ human nature wouldn’t of itself be ubiquitous.
Yes, the human nature need not be ubiquitous, just as Chalcedon explains that it was not the human nature that performed miracles, became weightless when Jesus walked on water, etc. Christ-God "died in the flesh", but not in his "divine nature", according to Chalcedon. The two natures, properties, or categories of being, occasionally do not have the same statuses or actions.


So the claim that the body is ubiquitous says that he has a body that has boundaries that doesn’t have boundaries. That’s a square triangle.
This is like objecting to Christ-God's death because God is immortal and cannot die, or objecting that Christ cannot ransom his brethren because he is a man and the Psalms say that "no man can ransom his brother".
Chalcedon solves seeming contradictions by applying one action or property to only one of the two natures. If God's body has no boundaries but human bodies do, then perhaps Christ's transformed spirit body could change between or at times share these two states of being, thereby being in more than one place at once.

Christ's spirit is in heaven on a throne, and yet it could also descend to earth, thereby being in two places at once. Since Christ has a transformed body and people claim seeing him on earth and interacting with him physically, this is conceivable about his body too.

My position on things like God making a square triangle is that God may well be able to do things that we can’t describe, but he can’t do things that are properly described by a contradiction, because contradictory descriptions don’t mean anything. Thus I claim that a ubiquitous body is a meaningless term. Christ might well be ubiquitous. He might well both have a body and also be ubiquitous. But to say that he has a ubiquitous body is to make a statement with no meaning.
These are the kinds of objections that skeptics and other nonChristians commonly make against Christianity. They object that Christ, as man cannot ransom sinners, that God cannot have a body, die, change, etc. Chalcedon resolves these problems by saying that he incarnated, his body transformed so that he can be in opposite states of being (visible vs. invisible, etc.), and by ascribing one state of being or action to one nature and not the other.

It doesn't rise to the level of being false. It may however be suggestive, and be true as something like a metaphor. My sense is that the Lutheran language is not literal, and that its actual meaning is the same as Calvin's. That seems to be what Calvin thought.
It sounds like it was Luther who argued that the Reformed were too literal when they restricted Jesus' body in "place and time":

As to the other text concerning Christ’s ascension, Luther argues that Zwingli is too literal in his understanding of “right hand of God.” It refers not to some place in heaven but to God’s “almighty power” which makes it possible for Christ’s body to be present anywhere he chooses. Zwingli’s argument concerning the necessity of a body to be circumscribed by place and time Luther rejects as an offspring of that harlot, Reason. (http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/1984/issue4/408.html)

I don't like Luther's use of the word "harlot", but it does look to me like the Reformed judge religion based on Enlightenment "Reason" when it comes to the Eucharist and to miracle-working relics.

This is mostly not an argument against actual Lutherans, but against some of what I'm seeing here. Most Lutheran writers qualify statements about Christ's ubiquity, saying that it doesn't mean that he is locally present everywhere or some such.
I am rather skeptical because Luther sounds clear on this, but offhand I suppose you could be right - Look at how PCUSA's Catechism now says that Christ's body shares in the bread, which sounds rather Lutheran as I think you noted. There seems to be increased occasional sharing of ideas between mainstream Protestants.

Peace.
 
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hedrick

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the Eucharist could be brought to that person. We can bring people food after a meal that they couldn't attend as leftovers, and I presume that it would be reasonable to bring the Communion food home to those people too.
I can't speak for Cranmer, but when we take communion to the sick it is a minister and at least one elder to represent the congregation. A whole communion service is done. So the elements are consecrated at that time. I suspect what Cranmer was objecting to was sending already consecrated elements around and not having a proper communion service when consuming them.
 
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hedrick

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Yes, the human nature need not be ubiquitous, just as Chalcedon explains that it was not the human nature that performed miracles, became weightless when Jesus walked on water, etc. Christ-God "died in the flesh", but not in his "divine nature", according to Chalcedon. The two natures, properties, or categories of being, occasionally do not have the same statuses or actions.
The Christological discussions I’ve seen assume that Christ’s body is purely human, so human limitations would apply to it.
Chalcedon solves seeming contradictions by applying one action or property to only one of the two natures. If God's body has no boundaries but human bodies do, then perhaps Christ's transformed spirit body could change between or at times share these two states of being, thereby being in more than one place at once.
Again, whether transformed spirit bodies have different properties is not an issue with the Lutherans because they agree that Christ’s body is not in itself ubiquitous.

But remember that Chalcedon applied human and divine properties to Christ by saying that the two natures were united in one person. It did not endorse applying divine properties to the humanity.

Indeed it specifically objected to doing that. If Christ didn’t take a human body with all the usual human limitations, then he didn’t save actual humans.

I think Lutheran writers have more of a recognition of these problems than I’m seeing here.
 
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hedrick

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From http://www.patheos.com/blogs/justandsinner/the-lutheran-response-to-calvin-on-the-eucharist/

“Another important thing that needs to be discussed is that the Lutheran church does not believe in the necessary or local omnipresence of the body of Christ. Christ in his human nature is not omnipresent in and of itself, for that would destroy his humanity. However, due to the unified person of Christ, the attributes of the divine nature are communicated to the human nature. It is by gift, not by nature. Also, Christ’s body is not locally present in all places. In other words, there are different modes of presence. The body of Christ was on earth before the ascension in a local manner which is different from the manner in which he was present afterwards. As Jesus himself testifies, “And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” The Lutheran divines saw this statement as showing that Jesus, while he would not be present in the same manner he was with the disciples, would be present with his church for all time. The question now to be asked is if this is only according to his divine nature that he is present or according to both natures. Exegetically the second option is preferable.”

Note that this is not claiming that Christ is present in every location in the usual sense of local presence. I think when you look carefully at what it means to have a presence that is not a local presence, you end up with something very much like spiritual presence. There are lots of questions to be pursued, e.g. the one at the end of whether Christ is present at sone locations only in one nature. While it would appear that the Calvinist would have to say yes, I agree that it makes no sense to say that Christ is present in some cases only in one nature. When we pursue all of this I think we'll find that there's not much difference between Lutheran and Reformed ideas.
 
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rakovsky

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I can't speak for Cranmer, but when we take communion to the sick it is a minister and at least one elder to represent the congregation. A whole communion service is done. So the elements are consecrated at that time. I suspect what Cranmer was objecting to was sending already consecrated elements around and not having a proper communion service when consuming them.
It looks like what has happened is that for practical reasons, the Anglican Church has gone around this prohibition on carrying the host:

Reserved Sacrament
In many Christian churches some portion of the consecrated elements is set aside and reserved after the reception of the Holy Eucharist, referred to as the reserved sacrament. The reserved sacrament is usually stored in a tabernacle, a locked cabinet made of precious materials and usually located on, above or near the high altar.

In the Anglican Communion a similar problem [to the fall in number of priests] has resulted in the General Synod of the Church of England authorising a service of Communion by Extension. Because of the traditional hostility to reservation, apart from the requirement that the Communion continues to be celebrated 'regularly' in each parish church, the instruction is that 'the consecrated bread and wine to be brought to the church from the celebration of Holy Communion in a seemly and dignified manner' implying that the service will have taken place in another church but on the same day. Moreover, '[e]xplicit permission must be obtained from the bishop for the use of this rite. This permission should relate to specific pastoral circumstances, thus emphasizing the exceptional nature of this ministry'.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserved_sacrament#Anglican_Communion
 
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rakovsky

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The Christological discussions I’ve seen assume that Christ’s body is purely human, so human limitations would apply to it.
Were these discussions by Luther and or 16th century Lutheran official pronouncements?
I can imagine that they would apply human limitations to Christ, since he was human, but it is hard to imagine that they would teach that the human limitations always apply if he can pass through walls, and in their view, be "ubiquitous."

Per Leo's Tome, accepted at Chalcedon, Christ does not always act or exist in a state compatible with a normal human nature. The Tome explains:
To be hungry and thirsty, to be weary, and to sleep, is clearly human: but to satisfy 5,000 men with five loaves, and to bestow on the woman of Samaria living water, droughts of which can secure the drinker from thirsting any more, to walk upon the surface of the sea with feet that do not sink, and to quell the risings of the waves by rebuking the winds, is, without any doubt, Divine. Just as therefore, to pass over many other instances, it is not part of the same nature to be moved to tears of pity for a dead friend, and when the stone that closed the four-days' grave was removed, to raise that same friend to life with a voice of command: or, to hang on the cross, and turning day to night, to make all the elements tremble: or, to be pierced with nails, and yet open the gates of paradise to the robber's faith: so it is not part of the same nature to say, I and the Father are one, and to say, the Father is greater than I.

Thus, Chalcedon dictates that Christ's body can clearly have actions or states of being that are part of one nature but not part of another nature.
If Christ's body were omnipresent, that would be a state of being that would be part of the divine nature, but not the human one.

Again, whether transformed spirit bodies have different properties is not an issue with the Lutherans because they agree that Christ’s body is not in itself ubiquitous.
For all I know, some Lutherans may, but Luther openly disagreed with Zwingli on this issue. Reformed theologian Schaeff explains:

[Luther] teaches that the body of Christ is exceptional and supernatural, different from ordinary human flesh and blood; that his flesh is born of the spirit, of a spiritual nature, and fit for spiritual food; and that the attributes of magnitude and extension do not apply to his body. Two deductions were then drawn: all things being present and permeable to Christ, he can enter and pass through them, being as energy without matter (as proved by the sealed tomb and the closed door), and the entire body of Christ may be in the smallest atom, though not circumscribed by it. ...For an answer to the further problem, how the body of Christ can be present simultaneously in heaven and in the host in countless celebrations of the Lord's Supper, recourse becomes necessary to the omnipotence of God, and Luther returns to the doctrine of the presence in an indefinite number of localities according to his will (Arno) taught by scholasticism. [Per Luther,] The body of Christ is at the right hand of God; the right hand of God is everywhere; therefore the body of Christ is in the bread.

There are, then, according to Luther, three demonstrable ways in which the humanity of Christ may anywhere be present: "circumscriptive or local existence," as it was on earth; "definitive existence," as it was during the resurrection through the sealed tombstone, and afterward through the closed door, and as it is also in the host; and "repletive existence," as the humanity is, in virtue of its personal union with God and exaltation to his right hand, everywhere and nowhere, also in the communion substances, yet in itself inapprehensible and inactive (wirkungslos). Luther did not restrict the body of Christ or the omnipotence of God to these three modes of being, but merely emphasized the ways human thought can and must establish the doctrine in accordance with faith and the Bible. http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/encyc/encyc12/htm/TOC.htm

1. But remember that Chalcedon applied human and divine properties to Christ by saying that the two natures were united in one person. It did not endorse applying divine properties to the humanity. Indeed it specifically objected to doing that.

2. If Christ didn’t take a human body with all the usual human limitations, then he didn’t save actual humans.
Leo's Tome, accepted at Chalcedon did not apply divine actions, like feeding the 5000 with five loaves, to the human nature.
And yes, if Christ didn't take a human body with human limitations like mortality, then he couldn't save humanity.
However, neither Chalcedon nor either of the two postulates above show that Christ could not act or exist in contradiction to human limitations as well.
For Christ to walk on water, his body was not acting in compliance with "the usual human limitations". That is why the Tome ascribes this action to the Divine nature and says that the act. does not apply to the human nature.
His body had human limitations, but due to the hypostatic union with the divine nature, he could act in contradiction of those limitations.

The Reformed view does not understand this and confines Christ's body to "the usual human limitations", or as Calvin called it, "the ordinary laws of nature". This naturalist view that puts "science" above the plain meaning of Scripture can ultimately lead out of Biblical Christianity as well, because it would lead to denying the Ascension, the passing through walls, etc. as defying human limitations. Just as the Reformed view the bread as only a symbol and ritual tool/"vehicle", some Protestants have concluded that the resurrection was not physical either, but rather an allegory. This is where uncompromisingly and unexceptionally imposing "the ordinary laws of nature" and the "usual human limitations" on Christ's body leads to.
 
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rakovsky

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Hello, Hedrick.

The Lutheran Missouri Synod explains:
Ref. theologians accused Luths. of teaching ubiquity in the FC in the sense of a local omnipresence or infinite extension of Christ's human nature. Luths. reject the charge and point out 1. The FC does not use the word “ubiquity.” 2. The FC specifically rejects ubiquity in that sense. “We reject and condemn as contrary to the Word of God and our simple Christian Creed … that the human nature of Christ is locally extended to every place in heaven and earth”
3. FC SD VII, The Holy Supper, 98–101, quoting M. Luther*: “The one body of Christ has three different modes, or all three modes, of being at any given place. [First,] The comprehensible, corporeal mode of presence, as when he walked bodily on earth and vacated or occupied space according to his size. … Secondly, the incomprehensible, spiritual mode of presence according to which he neither occupies nor vacates space but penetrates every creature, wherever he wills. … He employed this mode of presence … in the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper. … Thirdly, since He is one person with God, the divine, heavenly mode, according to which all creatures are indeed much more penetrable and present to Him than they are according to the second mode.”
http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=U&word=UBIQUITY

As Chalcedon teaches, some actions or states of being of Christ's body are attributed to one nature only. According to the Tome, walking above water is be attributed to the divine nature, not the human nature. And the same would be said if He has omnipresence.

Here you quote:
From http://www.patheos.com/blogs/justandsinner/the-lutheran-response-to-calvin-on-the-eucharist/

“Another important thing that needs to be discussed is that the Lutheran church does not believe in the necessary or local omnipresence of the body of Christ. Christ in his human nature is not omnipresent in and of itself, for that would destroy his humanity.
Like walking on water, Christ would not do that in his human nature "of itself."

However, due to the unified person of Christ, the attributes of the divine nature are communicated to the human nature. It is by gift, not by nature. Also, Christ’s body is not locally present in all places. In other words, there are different modes of presence. The body of Christ was on earth before the ascension in a local manner which is different from the manner in which he was present afterwards. As Jesus himself testifies, “And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” The Lutheran divines saw this statement as showing that Jesus, while he would not be present in the same manner he was with the disciples, would be present with his church for all time. The question now to be asked is if this is only according to his divine nature that he is present or according to both natures. Exegetically the second option is preferable.”

Let's continue the passage beyond what you quoted:
If the divine nature is present everywhere, while the human nature is present only at the right hand of the Father, then most of the person of Jesus is without his human nature. This means that only a small part of his divinity had become incarnate. It was the Lutheran contention that if Jesus was truly incarnate, it was all of Jesus, thus wherever he is, there is both his human and divine nature. Is this taught anywhere directly in scripture? Observe Paul’s statement in Ephesians 4, “He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe” This speaks of Christ’s ascension to fill the whole universe.

If this were merely about his divine nature, then one would have to admit that Paul believes Christ to have been omnipresent in his divine nature only after the incarnation. Since this destroys his deity, it is untenable. Thus, Paul must be referring to Christ in his human nature.
It is clear then that this Lutheran writers is teaching that both natures are present everywhere, filling the whole universe.

OK, how can this be?

First, as Chalcedon's Tome says, certain states of being like walking on water are attributed to just the divine nature.
Second, as Church fathers taught both before and after Chalcedon, due to the hypostatic union, the human nature took on divine properties (as I cited in the Summa Theologica). The Lutheran writer you quoted says it this way: "the attributes of the divine nature are communicated to the human nature."
Similarly, in the Tome, Leo explains that the two natures act in "cooperation" with each other.
This is how Christ in his human nature could bodily resurrect on his own, or how his human body could walk on water. The attribute of weightlessness was communicated to the human body.
Third, the Lutheran writer explains that due to communication of divine attributes to the human nature, the human nature can take on those attributes not only such as weightlessness or immortality, but omnipresence. This makes sense. He concludes then that the human nature can be omnipresent as well.

Going back to the Reformed accusation of "local omnipresence", I can see how this conclusion implies that Christ's human nature is omnipresent. But the Lutherans' response is effectively that the human nature is not omnipresent in itself, apart from the divine nature.
To give an analogy, per Chalcedon, the human nature of Christ did not walk on water on its own, but only in accordance with and subject to the divine nature.

When we pursue all of this I think we'll find that there's not much difference between Lutheran and Reformed ideas.
When it comes to the Eucharist, the Reformed do not understand that Christ can act in contradiction to his human nature. So they object to the Lutheran idea of Christ's bodily presence in the Eucharist by claiming that Christ's human nature cannot be present because it would violate the usual human limitations, as you put it.

But this objection is hostage to a naturalistic "scientific" scheme that chains Christ's body and his divine nature to "usual human limitations". As a result, it restricts Christ's body from going beyond those "usual human limitations", even though the Bible claims that he did, and Lutherans specify that this overcoming applies to the Eucharistic food and omnipresence too.
 
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hedrick

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Going back to the Reformed accusation of "local omnipresence", I can see how this conclusion implies that Christ's human nature is omnipresent. But the Lutherans' response is effectively that the human nature is not omnipresent in itself, apart from the divine nature.
To give an analogy, per Chalcedon, the human nature of Christ did not walk on water on its own, but only in accordance with and subject to the divine nature.
But Lutherans don't believe that Christ's human nature is locally present at all, not even in virtue of the union.

One of the positive statements in the Forumla of Concord:
14] The fourth: That God has and knows of various modes of being in any place, and not only the one [is not bound to the one] which philosophers call localis (local) for circumscribed].

One of the rejected statements:
29] 10. That the human nature of Christ is locally extended to all places of heaven and earth, which should not be ascribed even to the divine nature.

http://bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php

The conclusion is the Christ's human nature is present everywhere, but not in the same way that physical bodies are present. This isn't my naturalist assumption, but my attempt to explain the Lutheran position.

More detail is given in the Solid Declaration, which lists three modes in which Christ can be preset. The second mode is relevant here:

99] First, the comprehensible, bodily mode, as He went about bodily upon earth, when, according to His size, He vacated and occupied space [was circumscribed by a fixed place]. This mode He can still use whenever He will, as He did after the resurrection, and will use at the last day, as Paul says, 1 Tim. 6:15: "Which in His times He shall show, who is the blessed God [and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords]." And to the Colossians, 3:4: "When Christ, who is our Life, shall appear." In this manner He is not in God or with the Father, neither in heaven, as the mad spirits dream; for God is not a bodily space or place. And this is what the passages how Christ leaves the world and goes to the Father refer to which the false spirits cite.

100] Secondly, the incomprehensible, spiritual mode, according to which He neither occupies nor vacates space, but penetrates all creatures wherever He pleases [according to His most free will]; as, to make an imperfect comparison, my sight penetrates and is in air, light, or water, and does not occupy or vacate space; as a sound or tone penetrates and is in air or water or board and wall, and also does not occupy or vacate space; likewise, as light and heat penetrate and are in air, water, glass, crystal, and the like, and also do not vacate or occupy space; and much more of the like [many comparisons of this matter could be adduced]. This mode He used when He rose from the closed [and sealed] sepulcher, and passed through the closed door [to His disciples], and in the bread and wine in the Holy Supper, and, as it is believed, when He was born of His mother [the most holy Virgin Mary].

http://bookofconcord.org/sd-supper.php

Do you see why I see similarities to the Reformed spiritual presence?
 
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hedrick

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Incidentally if you read the posting when I spoke about the nature of human bodies carefully, you’ll see that I make a distinction you’re not seeing.

Jesus walking on water is something he didn’t have the power to do as a human, but it also doesn’t defy the nature of bodily presence. Neither did healing or resurrection, or the other kinds of things that Chalcedon was dealing with.

Jesus being present everywhere is something that contradicts the nature of a body. It’s not just a matter of needing a miracle, but a matter of violating the definition of body.

The Lutheran confessional documents I quoted above handle this by saying that this is a different mode of presence. In particular, it is a mode that is contrasted with bodily mode. I guess that’s OK. But to me the definition of body implies limited extent. If you want to speak of a body being present in a non-bodily way, I understand what is meant, but that’s not how I’d speak of it. I’d speak of Christ being spiritually present, but wouldn’t say that his body is spiritually present.

An argument for the lutheran approach is that we want to say that Christ is always incarnate. We don’t want to say that he’s incarnate only in one place in heaven, but not anywhere else. But I’d find another way to speak of that rather than saying that the body is present in a non-bodily mode. I do honestly think this is just terminology.
 
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rakovsky

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Hello, Hedrick.

The issue of omnipresence was only a way that Lutherans tried to explain Christ's presence in the physical Eucharist food that the Reformed rejected. As I mentioned before, there are other ways to explain it, so it is not necessary to justify the Lutheran view about omnipresence or find all their explanations about it faultless.

The Calvinist objection to Christ being in the Eucharist was that Christ's body was up in heaven, and they concluded that it could not be therefore on earth in the food. This however relies on a strict, naturalistic imposition of the "usual human limitations" on Christ, yet as we know imposing "usual human limitations" would contradict scripture's discussions on Jesus' body, like going through walls.

But Lutherans don't believe that Christ's human nature is locally present at all, not even in virtue of the union.

One of the positive statements in the Forumla of Concord:
14] The fourth: That God has and knows of various modes of being in any place, and not only the one [is not bound to the one] which philosophers call localis (local) for circumscribed].

One of the rejected statements:
29] 10. That the human nature of Christ is locally extended to all places of heaven and earth, which should not be ascribed even to the divine nature.
http://bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php
Since it says that local means circumscribed, this statement rejects that Christ is in all places on earth in a "circumscribed" ("local") manner that limits him to a "fixed place".
Based on this statement, his omnipresence on earth would have to be in a non-circumscribed manner, not confined in space. As I mentioned earlier, Christ's transfigured body would not be confined in space.

The conclusion is the Christ's human nature is present everywhere, but not in the same way that physical bodies are present. This isn't my naturalist assumption, but my attempt to explain the Lutheran position.

More detail is given in the Solid Declaration, which lists three modes in which Christ can be preset. The second mode is relevant here:

99] First, the comprehensible, bodily mode, as He went about bodily upon earth, when, according to His size, He vacated and occupied space [was circumscribed by a fixed place]. This mode He can still use whenever He will, as He did after the resurrection, and will use at the last day, as Paul says, 1 Tim. 6:15: "Which in His times He shall show, who is the blessed God [and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords]." And to the Colossians, 3:4: "When Christ, who is our Life, shall appear." In this manner He is not in God or with the Father, neither in heaven, as the mad spirits dream; for God is not a bodily space or place. And this is what the passages how Christ leaves the world and goes to the Father refer to which the false spirits cite.
Yes, as I said before, Christ is not always existing in a limited humanistic mode per the "usual human limitations", although he has that capability as he wills.

100] Secondly, the incomprehensible, spiritual mode, according to which He neither occupies nor vacates space, but penetrates all creatures wherever He pleases [according to His most free will]; as, to make an imperfect comparison, my sight penetrates and is in air, light, or water, and does not occupy or vacate space; as a sound or tone penetrates and is in air or water or board and wall, and also does not occupy or vacate space; likewise, as light and heat penetrate and are in air, water, glass, crystal, and the like, and also do not vacate or occupy space; and much more of the like [many comparisons of this matter could be adduced]. This mode He used when He rose from the closed [and sealed] sepulcher, and passed through the closed door [to His disciples], and in the bread and wine in the Holy Supper, and, as it is believed, when He was born of His mother [the most holy Virgin Mary].
http://bookofconcord.org/sd-supper.php
Yes, as I said, in Christ's transfigured body, there could be the possibility of intersection of boundaries, as it says here, "interpenetration."
Further, I compared this state to Christ's passing through walls, like the Concord Book did above.

Do you see why I see similarities to the Reformed spiritual presence?
No, because Luther and the Reformed had an open, drastic debate on this topic.
Luther believed that Christ's transfigured body existed in his second mode that was not confined to space nor subject to the "usual human limitations", but could rather pass through walls and be in the Eucharist bread.

The Reformed rejected Luther's belief because they said that Christ's body was stuck up in heaven, subject to "ordinary laws of nature", and not in the Eucharist bread. Thus, they rejected Luther's uncircumscribed second (Eucharistic bread) and third (omnipresent) modes of being for Christ's body.

If one follows this logic all the way, if Enlightenment-era "ordinary laws of nature" can totally confine Jesus' body to heaven and keep it out of the bread despite the plain meaning of Scripture, the Fathers, and Tradition, one could conclude that Jesus' body didn't have a real transfigured resurrection or pass through walls either, but only did so allegorically, as some Protestant theologians are concluding nowadays.
 
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hedrick

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I don't think the question is Lars of nature, but the definition of body. Reformed accept the resurrection and other violations of the laws. While arguing against use of bodily presence, particularly in the Institures, Calvin said other places that he didn't see a serious difference. I think you are understanding Calvin in a hostile way.
 
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