LDS Is Moroni a fallen demonic angel?

[mmksparbud]

Me too!

I'm a grandma of the sweetest two year old grandson.

Do you have kids?

Just my husband and 2 dogs---and I'm not sure which is more childlike!!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Just my husband and 2 dogs---and I'm not sure which is more childlike!!

Childlike can be fun, if it's not taken to far. Is he funny

 

[mmksparbud]

There you go quoting out dated material, there are all kinds of evidences.

You all have been asked to not do this---if you have evidence then please state that evidence and the source. I can say there is evidence that JS was a closet/ black, Chinese, gay woman in men's clothing---unless I quote my proof for it, I can not just say that!!!!

 

[mmksparbud]

Childlike can be fun, if it's not taken to far. Is he funny

Yah--lucky for him---It's hard to kill him when you're laughing!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yah--lucky for him---It's hard to kill him when you're laughing!

That's a good thing than. Studies show people who laugh a lot live longer and have much less stress. Kids are stress and I got a few wrinkles to prove it. Grandchildren are all fun without the responsibilty.

 

[withwonderingawe]

That's a good thing than. Studies show people who laugh a lot live longer and have much less stress. Kids are stress and I got a few wrinkles to prove it. Grandchildren are all fun without the responsibilty.

Grandkids are the blessing you get for not killing your children. I got 8 of them.

 

[Ironhold]

I don't think they are. However, we feel that the basics of Christianity are beliefs in the Nicene Creed. So I see no lies here.

I caught the person cited earlier using material that was 15 years out of date, something that even you guys admitted to.

How is "knowingly and willingly using bad information" not lying?

 

[mmksparbud]

I caught the person cited earlier using material that was 15 years out of date, something that even you guys admitted to.

How is "knowingly and willingly using bad information" not lying?

OK=-15 years out of date may seem like a long time. However, most churches have remained pretty much the same for up to hundreds of years!! The Catholic church still uses stuff from hundreds of years ago. Very little can change in 15 years in most churches. What in your basic doctrines could have changed so much in 15 years?? How old is the BOM--0certsinkly more than 15 years---what exactly is your complaint about the material posted???

 

[Ironhold]

what exactly is your complaint about the material posted???

We're talking about academia, not theology.

In academia, presenting outdated information as if it was current material is pretty bad. At best it means that the person hasn't bothered to keep current with what's happening. At worst, it means that the person is a bold-faced liar who is trying to deny that things have changed. Either way, that person's reputation just took a huge hit.

For people to keep harping on the Smithsonian letter 17 years later is, thus, pretty bad. It ignores the fact that the letter hasn't been in circulation in all this time. It also ignores why the letter hasn't been in circulation. Archaeology and the other related studies have all moved on since 1998. And as the article I linked to noted, some of the objections raised in the letter were wrong even back in 1998.

That's why it's such a big deal.

 

[Armoured]

We're talking about academia, not theology.

In academia, presenting outdated information as if it was current material is pretty bad. At best it means that the person hasn't bothered to keep current with what's happening. At worst, it means that the person is a bold-faced liar who is trying to deny that things have changed. Either way, that person's reputation just took a huge hit.

For people to keep harping on the Smithsonian letter 17 years later is, thus, pretty bad. It ignores the fact that the letter hasn't been in circulation in all this time. It also ignores why the letter hasn't been in circulation. Archaeology and the other related studies have all moved on since 1998. And as the article I linked to noted, some of the objections raised in the letter were wrong even back in 1998.

That's why it's such a big deal.

What's wrong in it, specifically?

 

[Ironhold]

What's wrong in it, specifically?

To begin with, here's a full-length response to the letter as penned by apologist Jeff Lindsay, the same person who tracked the controversy back in the day: http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/smithsonian.shtml

That being said, some of the issues with the letter are as follows:

1. The letter was dismissive of the concept of Trans-Oceanic contact between the Americas and the Old World. However, even back then there was plenty of evidence to suggest that various groups made at least token contact with the Americas before the Vikings arrived, such that non-Mormon scholars were making note of this even back then. (The original late 1990s edition of "Lies My Teacher Told Me" by James Loewen even had a full-page chart summarizing the suspected groups and the evidences thereof.) In particular, there's strong evidence to suspect that the Irish and and the Afro-Phoenicians made contact before the Vikings arrived. edit - With the Irish, there's evidence of colonization, including at least one structure that may have been a crude church. With the Afro-Phoenicians (IIRC), a document was discovered that appears to have been a map of part of America, indicating that someone went there and then managed to make it back.

2. The author of the letter boldly declared that all Native Americans were of a single homogeneous group of Mongloid descent, when even as far back as 1993 (three years before the letter was written) individual non-Mormon scientists and researchers began questioning whether or not there was Near Eastern heritage present in some individual groups.

3. The author objected to the Book of Mormon referencing such "New World" things as glass and silk, in the process forgetting about the known existence of obsidian (a naturally-occurring glass produced by volcanic action; it's so sharp that it was used to make weapons such as the Macuahuitl) and ignoring evidence to the effect that a silk-like material may have existed among the Aztecs.

4. The author of the letter apparently believed that the Book of Mormon focused on a group of Egyptians coming to the New World rather than Jews, as one of the arguments made in the letter noted the lack of "Egyptian" evidences. As it was, even as far back as the late 1970s people have been noting odd similarities between elements of Mesoamerican and Egyptian cultures, most specifically the impulse to build pyramid structures.

In that sense, whoever wrote the letter was apparently unfamiliar with both the Book of Mormon itself *and* various discoveries & controversies concerning Mesoamerica, some of which went back decades before the letter was written.

 

[ToBeLoved]

..

 

[Jane_Doe]

If Moroni cannot say this is out of date, than it's not.

Better go find him.

This present conversation is about the Smithsonian letter. Please keep on topic, and do not mock other faiths (in violation of forum rules).

 

[rockytopva]

Mormon and Moroni.... No biblical significance to these names. We can look up Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael and find names that glorify God. And if these are all indeed archangels, then Michael Raphael Gabriel Uriel Chamuel Jophiel Raguel, all would be believable angels as the Angel name normally end with the "el" suffix. "El" meaning "in God" and the first half of the name meaning what each individual Angel specializes in.

Even Lucifer's name is Heylel (pronounced hey-lay-el) or a Light in God.

But who are these Mormon and Moroni figures? No biblical references here! And after reading these threads one can only assume these figures to be the products of the wild imagination of Joseph Smith.

 

[rockytopva]

If I had this thread to name over again I would call it, "Is Moroni a mythical Smithite creation?" As I believe that closest to the truth.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I caught the person cited earlier using material that was 15 years out of date, something that even you guys admitted to.

How is "knowingly and willingly using bad information" not lying?

He may not know he's using out dated information, you need not be so contentious. Lying is a strong word.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Mormon and Moroni.... No biblical significance to these names. We can look up Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael and find names that glorify God. And if these are all indeed archangels, then Michael Raphael Gabriel Uriel Chamuel Jophiel Raguel, all would be believable angels as the Angel name normally end with the "el" suffix. "El" meaning "in God" and the first half of the name meaning what each individual Angel specializes in.

Even Lucifer's name is Heylel (pronounced hey-lay-el) or a Light in God.

But who are these Mormon and Moroni figures? No biblical references here! And after reading these threads one can only assume these figures to be the products of the wild imagination of Joseph Smith.

Is there a question in there?

 

[rockytopva]

Is there a question in there?

But who are these Mormon and Moroni figures?

 

[withwonderingawe]

But who are these Mormon and Moroni figures?

They are a father and son who were the last to remaining members of their civilization which destroyed itself through wickedness. Mormon edited a thousand of years of history down into what we call The Book of Mormon. His son Moroni edited the records they found of the Jaredites who had come before his people. He is living around 420 ad. He writes

“I had supposed not to have written more, but I have not as yet perished; and I make not myself known to the Lamanites lest they should destroy me.
For behold, their wars are exceedingly fierce among themselves; and because of their hatred they put to death every Nephite that will not deny the Christ. And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.”

There is a little argument back and forth among those who worry about such things as to just where he wandered. If this all took place in Central America then he wandered a long way to find himself in upstate New York where he finally buried the plates. There are some who believe it all occurred within the United States and he wandered not all that far.

Now this next part is about angels and who they really are;

In Rev 14 John has a vision of heaven and he sees

“ ….a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads….These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”

In Zech 3 he too sees into heaven and the pre-earth ordination of Joshua, he is told;

“ If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at…”

In Rev 22 he writes;
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Now lets go back to Rev 14

“and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads….And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,….”

Angels are men chosen by the Lord because of their righteousness, they serve him even after their deaths. This angel flying in the midst of heaven is Moroni who showed Joseph Smith where he had hidden the plates which contained the gospel which is being preached to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Mormon and Moroni.... No biblical significance to these names. We can look up Gabriel, Michael, and Raphael and find names that glorify God. And if these are all indeed archangels, then Michael Raphael Gabriel Uriel Chamuel Jophiel Raguel, all would be believable angels as the Angel name normally end with the "el" suffix. "El" meaning "in God" and the first half of the name meaning what each individual Angel specializes in.

Even Lucifer's name is Heylel (pronounced hey-lay-el) or a Light in God.

But who are these Mormon and Moroni figures? No biblical references here! And after reading these threads one can only assume these figures to be the products of the wild imagination of Joseph Smith.

There is also no Biblical significance to gold plates being buried and then having to have some kind of see er/decoder.

When God sent angels they spoke to people God;s messages or performed some kind of action that God had sent for them to do. God had the Bible authors write the BIble, not find a buried book already written also.

None of it follows the patterns of how God interacts with us.