Why don't protestants bless Mary?

[Aldebaran]

And Scripture tells me to hold fast to the oral Word of God. I think this clearly means accepting the teachings of the historic Church founded by Jesus Christ, the Son of Mary.

Oh, so now it's the historic church? Does that also mean people like St. Augustine in the 1500's? You're changing your story. You need to be consistent, but you're not doing that. You say the church is what makes the rules now (oral tradition), and then you change it to the historic church. How much history does there have to be before a new tradition becomes part of "God's Word"?

 

[Albion]

When you use the word tradition I myself think as a practicing catholic that oral tradition and the things that the apostles verbally told us to do and how to practice them. That is what tradition is and not just things the church tells us to do.

That is more or less what the claim about Tradition says.

But whether it's accurate is something else. Virtually no doctrine that is said to be based on Tradition actually is in accord with the standards that the church itself has set for determining a doctrine by way of Tradition.

 

[Aldebaran]

You know how you feel when an atheist tells you that your faith in the Bible is merely a faith in a book of fairy tales written by men? You are doing the same thing right now.

That's really not the same thing. We're told to admonish and encourage one another in the Truth and to set straight those who are teaching God's Word falsely. As for nonbelievers, we're simply told to preach the Gospel to them. It's really a different dynamic when we're relating to fellow believers.

 

[patricius79]

That is more or less what the claim about Tradition says.

But whether it's accurate is something else. Virtually no doctrine that is said to be based on Tradition actually is in accord with the standards that the church itself has set for determining a doctrine by way of Tradition.

What does that mean mean?

 

[patricius79]

That really is just another way of saying that I have to accept it because you said it. Yeah, that's not gonna work.

The Bible says "whoever listens to you listens to me" and "hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter". How do you believe these words of God are living and active today?

I believe they are living and active in the Church founded by Jesus Christ, which teaches us the truth about the Mother of God.

 

[patricius79]

That's really not the same thing. We're told to admonish and encourage one another in the Truth and to set straight those who are teaching God's Word falsely. As for nonbelievers, we're simply told to preach the Gospel to them. It's really a different dynamic when we're relating to fellow believers.

Maybe so to some extent. But I think it's pretty similar to reject the oral Word as fairy tales, just as atheists reject the Bible--which is part of Catholic Tradition-- as fairy tales.

 

[Meowzltov]

Don't just make that claim. Show it to me! You said, "Mary needed to be saved from falling into sin by the Son of God, her Son. The Mother of God's tremendous suffering in knowing that her son would be crucified, and watching him carry his cross and be crucified, is redemptive (Luke 2:35), but only by the grace of Christ. Mary's role as Mediatrix with Christ is itself a grace of Christ."

Now show me where the Word of God says these things! You make claims, but back them up with nothing but more of your claims, which is nothing but circular reasoning.

As long as you understand that by "Word of God" he means the entirety of Magisterial teachings, which includes the Bible, but is not limited to the Bible.

 

[Meowzltov]

That's really not the same thing. We're told to admonish and encourage one another in the Truth and to set straight those who are teaching God's Word falsely. As for nonbelievers, we're simply told to preach the Gospel to them. It's really a different dynamic when we're relating to fellow believers.

You're right. It's WORSE when a fellow believer is the one disparaging the authority of God on earth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Maybe so to some extent. But I think it's pretty similar to reject the oral Word as fairy tales, just as atheists reject the Bible--which is part of Catholic Tradition-- as fairy tales.

The problem with talking or the oral word is it can be repeated differently than it was originally intended.

We know from 2,000 year old sources like the Dead Sea Scrolls, that the Word of God is almost word-for-word the same now as 2,000 years ago.

That is a pretty powerful case for the Bible..

People passing down exact words in oral conversation. Not good results. That's why gossip is such a problem, the story get's additions as it goes.

 

[patricius79]

The problem with talking or the oral word is it can be repeated differently than it was originally intended.

We know from 2,000 year old sources like the Dead Sea Scrolls, that the Word of God is almost word-for-word the same now as 2,000 years ago.

That is a pretty powerful case for the Bible..

People passing down exact words in oral conversation. Not good results. That's why gossip is such a problem, the story get's additions as it goes.

Yes, things passed on orally can be forgotten, just as the Bible can easily be misinterpreted. But the Bible tells us to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter. We do this by finding the true Church and receiving the Word of God (Sacred Tradition) from her, which is preserved--unlike ordinary human oral tradition or ordinary human writing--by the Holy Spirit which Christ promised would be with us always. John 14:26. Just as the Holy Spirit can write inerrant words through human beings, so likewise He can preserve Sacred Tradition from error. The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth, and whoever listens to her listens to Christ (Luke 10:16).

 

[n2thelight]

Hi n2thelight,

I think that God's Word is Catholic Tradition, which is the historic source of the N.T. Canon. I'm wondering why you ignored most of the points in my post.

God's Word is not tradition

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

 

[n2thelight]

When you use the word tradition I myself think as a practicing catholic that oral tradition and the things that the apostles verbally told us to do and how to practice them. That is what tradition is and not just things the church tells us to do.

The things the Apostles said verbally was the Word,they did'nt add to it...God's Word was and is complete without man's traditions

They did'nt speak about anything that was'nt written

 

[High Fidelity]

I don't see why we would. I don't bless the prophets or Jesus' disciples either.

 

[n2thelight]

Bottom line,I can trust the Word I can't trust man.....You say I should trust the Church(cc)they are still men...You (cc)say the offiice was handed down...Show me one Pope who you claim came from Peter that were able to do what the Apostles did...

You say he(the pope)can forgive sins,scripture says only God can,in the name of Christ...Who do I believe,traditions or the Word?

Whatever traditions you all have,God did'nt write them,therefore I can't,no matter how well intentioned they are trust...However I can trust His Word!!!!!!

 

[Paul1963]

The things the Apostles said verbally was the Word,they did'nt add to it...God's Word was and is complete without man's traditions

They did'nt speak about anything that was'nt written

But remember the apostles spoke the word before it was written. It was all verbal and there actions that they did. That is were the tradition started. Then it was written years later.

 

[n2thelight]

But remember the apostles spoke the word before it was written. It was all verbal and there actions that they did. That is were the tradition started. Then it was written years later.

I understand what you trying to say ,however the letters were written with the Holy Spirit,traditions were not

John 14:26
"But the Comforter, Which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

This is when they wrote the letters

 

[patricius79]

God's Word is not tradition

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

I think it is good that you love the Bible. Yes, the Word of God is Jesus Christ, who is God and is the Son of Mary, who conceived Him with the Holy Spirit. Jesus didn't write anything. He handed on His Word orally to the Apostles and disciples (Luke 10:16), who then handed it on orally to others. 2 Timothy 2:2. Paul said that we should hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter 2 Thessalonians 2:15. What do you think of that verse?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm going to let you guys keep discussing it.

I would just add that 2,000 years ago many were illiterate, especially among the poor. So sometimes this was the only way for some to get information about Christ.

However, FWIW, written has always stood the test of time and is better in almost every way for accuracy

 

[Albion]

But remember the apostles spoke the word before it was written. It was all verbal and there actions that they did. That is were the tradition started. Then it was written years later.

That's a mistake. You are assuming that the Apostles ADDED TO the faith in some way that is both essential and not to be found in Scripture. There is no basis for thinking that.

While the faith, doctrines, etc. may be transmitted orally, this does not constitute a rival "revelation" unless there's something new or different being taught...and there is nothing in history or even common sense that suggests that this is what the Apostles did.

Then to make matters worse, the institutional church later on not only decided to put so-called traditions on the par with Holy Scripture but assumed, simply assumed, that the Apostles departed from the faith once delivered to them and came up with some additional doctrines that we must know and accept under pain of mortal sin.

 

[patricius79]

I'm going to let you guys keep discussing it.

I would just add that 2,000 years ago many were illiterate, especially among the poor. So sometimes this was the only way for some to get information about Christ.

However, FWIW, written has always stood the test of time and is better in almost every way for accuracy

The Scriptures are an indispensable part of the Word of God, given by Christ through the Catholic Church, which is the source of the N.T. Canon. And all of the Word of God (Catholic Tradition) is reliable, but our interpretations are not always reliable. That is why Christ said "whoever listens to you listens to me" and "I will give you the keys...whatever you bind on earth, will be bound in heaven", establishing the Magisterium which confirms the teachings of the saints like St. Louis DeMontfort that it most-proper to go to Jesus through Mary, the New Eve and Mother of God.