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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT...

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Vicomte13

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Does that mean that all writing is inspired by God?
That would seem unlikely. Obviously the writers meant CERTAIN writing. Trouble is, nowhere in Scripture does that list of which writing appear.

The only way we "know" that is through oral tradition. And the oral traditions differ.

As far as what Paul thought or didn't think about his writing, who can say? Sometimes in his writings, Paul seems to have a very high opinion of himself. Other times, he calls himself the worst of sinners. He wrote different people over a number of years in different states of mind, so we get a portrait of Paul from his writings. Clearly he believed that he was acting under the emprise of the Holy Spirit, so I would expect he probably - by extension - considered what he wrote about the spirit to have been inspired.

Peter wrote that Paul's writings were "scripture" (and by that he obviously meant sacred, not merely "writing", to say that a written letter is a written letter is not saying much).

But in Peter and Paul's time, and when coming to determine what the set of writings to be called "Scripture" is, oral tradition is king. Christianity didn't spread primarily through writing but orally. Writing backed up the authority, but which writings are the Bible and which are not vary by region, and are determined not by the written tradition contained in the Scripture, but by oral tradition around what is, and what isn't, Scripture. And men have always disagreed about that and still do.
 
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Vicomte13

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If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box,
I've never been in that box to begin with, so I can't really quite get the mindset.

To me, it is obvious that Christianity spread by oral tradition. That there was an older set of writings - the Jewish scriptures - of diverse origins, but that the Jews didn't dispute what was "in" and what was "out" much either, because they had a Temple with priests in a line ordained by God, and vested by God with the authority to make such decisions.

It's always been obvious to me that with Christianity, God simply replaced the priests, ending the Jewish line and replacing them with the Christian line.

It used to be Aaron and his sons, succeeded by the High Priest and the Sanhedrin and Levites that were God's priesthood. Then Jesus came as THE high priest with the Apostles and Disciples as the Sanhedrin and Levites.
Then God destroyed the Temple and wiped out the Jewish priesthood, to make it clear that THE High Priesthood thereafter was Peter and his successors, that THE Sanhedrin were the successors of the Apostles, and that THE Levitical assistant priesthood were the presbyters and the diaconate.

And it all continued in an oral tradition whose authority rested on the authority invested by God directly in the priests, with the writings as a backup for the education of priests.

It's always been obvious to me that private reading of Scripture is the work of lay people, who are the descendants of the Pharisees, but just like the Pharisees, lay people were never invested by God with any final authority - that the final authority from the time of Moses until today has always been invested directly by God in the High and lesser priesthood.

It's always been obvious to me that there has been one continuous priesthood in a continuous structure held up by God's spirit from Moses, then, to Francis, today, and that the purpose of the writings has always been to bolster Prophets, Apostles, High Priests and Popes, so that THEY know the past and can discern within that past when the spirit of God and voice of God, which is present in them, is leading them, and when the voice of the Tempter within them is trying to lead them astray.

The notion that a Hebrew in Moses' camp could pick up the things that Moses wrote and challenge Moses' authority has always been ridiculous, and it still is.

And this is why I am a Catholic - because I think that the Mandate of Heaven has ALWAYS been vested in the priesthood, and that the priesthood has ALWAYS been the source of authority, not the book. The book is there to instruct the priests. The priests have the authority to instruct us. We can be Pharisees and read the book to HELP the priests, but we were never invested with the authority OF priests, unless we become priests. That way is open to US, for a price. It wasn't open before Jesus, because the only people who were priests then were in a bloodline, nobody in the bloodline could ESCAPE his duty as a priest, and nobody out of the bloodline could become a priest.

Why? Because God said so. So that is that. When God spoke to Moses and gave Moses the law, he gave Moses final command authority on Spiritual matters over every Hebrew. Moses' authority was from God, and no human could challenge that.

Jesus did the same thing with Peter and the Apostles, and through the laying on of hands that authority has passed to Francis, and the Ecumenical Patriarch, etc. And that is that.

To me, this is perfectly obvious, and when I read the Bible that is what I see.

Human beings never had any authority to wield the Torah against Moses or the High Priest of the Temple - he was the final interpreter, the Supreme Court. God replaced the ethnic Temple of one tribe with the Universal Church of all tribes, but he didn't replace the structure: High Priest, Sanhedrin, Levites, laity - Pope, Bishops, Priests/Presbyters/Deacons, Laity. Same final interpretive authority.

How do we know what IS Scripture? WE listen to the Pope, who listens to his ancestors in the high priesthood, and God directed the earlier Popes and Bishops what they were to use as their sources, and what they were to set aside. The Holy Spirit told the priesthood, and the priesthood was invested by God with the final authority of such things. Such authority has never, ever been given to the common man to make any such decisions. God gave that authority to Moses, and down the line of High Priests to Francis, and to challenge the hierarchy that God chose is to challenge God and to be wrong by definition.

When I read the Bible, this is self-evidently obvious, and I'm always amazed that people are so blind to it.

That's how we got rabbinnical Judaism. Instead of accepting the destruction of the Temple and the Jewish Priesthood as God's final judgment and proof that Jesus came to replace them with the new High Priesthood, the Pharisaic laymen set up their own new religion, based on the written word. This was continued defiance of God, for God continued to be with the High Priest HE ordained, and his name was Peter, followed by Linus, etc. Of course that succession is not in the Scripture, because it didn't need to be. The line of succession of Aaron isn't given in Scripture either, only the fact that Aaron's line continued, vested with the authority God gave to Aaron.

God repeats his pattern of things over and over, because God clearly likes his own opinion of things.

Needless to say there isn't anywhere to go with this particular line of thinking, because it's as different from the text-based belief system as the Priestly Sadducees were from the lay Pharisees. It was only the extermination of the Sadducee priests by God's hand wielding the Roman Army that the Pharisees could EVER advance to the leadership over Judaism, because the Mandate of Heaven was with the Jewish priests (over the Jews) as long as they existed. When they ceased to exist, that SHOULD have been the sign for the Jews to follow Peter and the Apostles, per Jesus, but instead they followed their book and Pharisees.

The analogies in Christendom are obvious, but I won't make them, because it is as I said before: there is nowhere to go with this line of thinking - it just IS - and you believe it or you don't. When I read the Bible and take it as a whole, that is the predominant theme I see in it: God speaks through the prophets and priests he chooses, and once he does, you listen to what they say. The religion of God is the religion of Temple and Church, and its authority reposes in the oral instructions of men who have been appointed by God for that purposes. The book is merely a record of what some of those men said and did. It's history, but the Mandate of Heaven is with the man in the office now, and not with what the dead men said and did. The authority reposes in God, and it is excercised through God's priesthood. The Bible is merely a record of how God and those men exercised that authority in the past, and it exists to be a guide to the present priesthood so they are not tempted by the siren song of the Devil.

Of course WE can read it too, and that's fine. Those well versed in it are modern Pharisees. The notion that this makes us High Priests, however, is defiance of God. The authority does not repose in us as lawyers reading the history book. It reposes in the High Priesthood, and man cannot ever change that. Only God can. And he's not going to until the end of the world.

So, fighting about religious authority is a sterile exercised. God invested it in the High Priesthood, and that's where it always remains. And whoever doesn't like that is at war with the opinion of God on the matter, and is therefore wrong by definition.

That is what the Bible ultimately says. Obviously.
 
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TLK Valentine

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That would seem unlikely. Obviously the writers meant CERTAIN writing. Trouble is, nowhere in Scripture does that list of which writing appear.

The only way we "know" that is through oral tradition. And the oral traditions differ.

As far as what Paul thought or didn't think about his writing, who can say? Sometimes in his writings, Paul seems to have a very high opinion of himself. Other times, he calls himself the worst of sinners. He wrote different people over a number of years in different states of mind, so we get a portrait of Paul from his writings. Clearly he believed that he was acting under the emprise of the Holy Spirit, so I would expect he probably - by extension - considered what he wrote about the spirit to have been inspired.

Peter wrote that Paul's writings were "scripture" (and by that he obviously meant sacred, not merely "writing", to say that a written letter is a written letter is not saying much).

But in Peter and Paul's time, and when coming to determine what the set of writings to be called "Scripture" is, oral tradition is king. Christianity didn't spread primarily through writing but orally. Writing backed up the authority, but which writings are the Bible and which are not vary by region, and are determined not by the written tradition contained in the Scripture, but by oral tradition around what is, and what isn't, Scripture. And men have always disagreed about that and still do.

Oral Tradition, you say? Divine inspiration determined by a popularity contest, more like. God's words determined by people, not God.
 
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-57

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Is God required for electricity to work?
How about gravity?
How about antibiotics?

The internal combustion engine...

icengines14.gif


At which step does God intervene? A, B, C, or D?

The step where God created physical laws. Why do you ask?
 
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Vicomte13

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Oral Tradition, you say? Divine inspiration determined by a popularity contest, more like. God's words determined by people, not God.

Writing does not have primacy. Never did. God has the primacy, and God speaks to people. He doesn't send anybody letters.

The question is whether you believe that some particular piece of writing ABOUT what God said is true or not. Do you believe that the man who wrote this was really inspired by God and is really telling the truth accurately about what God said to him.

If you do, then God's words on that piece of paper have authority because they came from God.
If you don't, then the words alleged to be from God don't have that authority, and the fact of the allegation makes the whole thing a lie.

Example: When I was a boy I broke my neck, was paralyzed and drowning alone at the bottom of a lake. Right there, right then, God reached down and healed me directly, in an instant. I rose from the water, alive and healed. And I told no-one for many years.

What you have just read is a writing. It happens to be completely true. God performed a major miracle on me. He performed two more major miracles in my presence later in my life, and has spoken to me on occasion. That is also a writing. The writing conveys direct communication from God, in power, and potentially in word (I did not recount what God said).

If I am telling the truth, then this e-mail is a direct account of miraculous actions by God, and if I were to quote what God said to me, it would a direct account of God's words, which answer some questions. It's a writing, and because the words came from God, it is authoritative. In other words, it's Scripture...if you believe it is true.

If you don't, then it's the opposite of Scripture - it's a writing containing multiple direct and intentional lies about God.

I've already told you that I am telling the truth, in this very writing.

The entire question for this writing, and every other one, reposes on one matter: do you believe what you read or not.
 
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Vicomte13

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And I will answer my own question to you from the previous post.

You identify as an agnostic.

OF COURSE you do not believe what I wrote (about myself).
You don't believe what is written in any of the Scriptures.
You're not sure whether or not there is God, but you DO know that you're not going to believe some other man's testimony about God.

If you're ever going to believe in God, then God is going to have to reveal himself directly to YOU.

Suppose for a moment that he does. But suppose he doesn't answer many, or any, of your questions. Suppose you are left with the fact of a divine encounter, and you know it, but that God didn't discuss religion with you.

You won't be an agnostic anymore after that - you'll KNOW that God IS, even though you can't prove it to anybody else. But you still won't know which, if any, of the religions to believe and follow. You'll just realize that there is an actual truth towards which they are all striving.

And MAYBE God DID reveal himself to ONE of them, and DID answer the questions, but did not to the others.
Or maybe not.

Science might be useless to help you. But then again, if God left actual physical miracles you could study - things that, by their very nature, contain physical features that can't exist under the scientifically established laws of physics, but that DO, nevertheless, exist - and that contain prominent religious information in them. THEN science actually COULD help you, because you could study the object sufficiently to be able to say "Natural processes could not have produced this." And if the features of it are also vastly beyond the ability of mankind, you could say "Man could not have produced this either."

But there is is nevertheless, your physical miracle, frozen into an object, left by God to be examinable by your science.
And if that object were Hindu, or Muslim, or Christian, or Jewish, or Zoroastrian, it would be strong testimony to the reality of THAT particular faith.

Now suppose that ALL of the physical miracles that are examinable are all within the boundaries of ONE religion. That would actually give you a scientific proof of God.

Granted, an atheist or an agnostic would probably reject the proof, suspecting that the "proof" itself was a lie - that the forensic science wasn't honest. But if you'd already spoken to God, so you already knew THAT part of the picture, the fact that every miracle frozen in matter that was left by this God to be able to be studied all contain information verifying only one religion, would mean that those objects were a physical proof of a specific God, FROM that God, and would give the God who spoke to you a name.

That is the only way that you will come to believe under normal circumstances.

In terrorem mortalis - with the plane plunging in flames from the sky having you inside it, you - and everybody else - will be crying out to a God they don't believe in - there are no atheists in foxholes - but if the plane is somehow saved and you don't die, the saving of your life will never prove God to you. You need to see him, hear him, etc. Otherwise, you will not believe.

So, if God really cares about you, he's going to have to cross that gap and reach out to you, because what he's left you to see so far is unconvincing. Right?
 
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JoeP222w

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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!
Your approach/presupposition seems to be that Evolution is absolute truth, while the Bible/Word of God is suspect because Evolution is true. This is eisegesis (reading into the text of scripture what you think it should mean through the lens of modern thought).

My presupposition is that the word of God in inerrant, infallible, and the absolute truth. All other documentation comes under the authority of the Bible.

I have seen no evidence whatsoever of Darwinian Evolution (that species change into different kinds). And the truth is that God created all things "good", meaning they had no need whatsoever to "evolve" into something more advanced, because God's design is perfect.

There are no examples today of evolution actively occurring. If evolution is true, we should have an abundance of species that is changing into other kinds of species, yet there is none of that.

Evolution often claims "mountains of evidence", but when pressed to name one example, that has not been shown to be falsified, those who support evolution cannot provide. I am not talking about adaptation.

Darwin claimed that if one part of his theory could be shown to be wrong, the whole system collapses.
 
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lasthero

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I have seen no evidence whatsoever of Darwinian Evolution (that species change into different kinds).

I'm pretty sure Darwin wrote nothing about 'different kinds'.

What's a 'kind'?

Darwin claimed that if one part of his theory could be shown to be wrong, thewhole system collapses.

Where did Darwin claim that?
 
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TLK Valentine

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Writing does not have primacy. Never did. God has the primacy, and God speaks to people. He doesn't send anybody letters.

And when those people tell me tgat God has spoken to them, I choose whether or not to believe them. So what?

The question is whether you believe that some particular piece of writing ABOUT what God said is true or not. Do you believe that the man who wrote this was really inspired by God and is really telling the truth accurately about what God said to him.

Some pretty convincing evidence is going to need to be presented for a "yes" answer.

If you do, then God's words on that piece of paper have authority because they came from God.

Sounds like it's true if... indeed, because I say so. I'm not used to truth being quite so subjective.

If you don't, then the words alleged to be from God don't have that authority, and the fact of the allegation makes the whole thing a lie.

Sounds like God cannot speak unless we believe it.

Example: When I was a boy I broke my neck, was paralyzed and drowning alone at the bottom of a lake. Right there, right then, God reached down and healed me directly, in an instant. I rose from the water, alive and healed. And I told no-one for many years.

What you have just read is a writing. It happens to be completely true. God performed a major miracle on me. He performed two more major miracles in my presence later in my life, and has spoken to me on occasion. That is also a writing. The writing conveys direct communication from God, in power, and potentially in word (I did not recount what God said).

Sorry, no. You recounted yourown experience, and your belief that God was there. There is no direct communication from God.

At best, I can believe that there is an indirect communication.

If I am telling the truth, then this e-mail is a direct account of miraculous actions by God, and if I were to quote what God said to me, it would a direct account of God's words, which answer some questions. It's a writing, and because the words came from God, it is authoritative. In other words, it's Scripture...if you believe it is true.

If you don't, then it's the opposite of Scripture - it's a writing containing multiple direct and intentional lies about God.

It's only a lie if it's deliberate. You might simply be mistaken.

I've already told you that I am telling the truth, in this very writing.
And I get to choose whether or not to believe you. If I choose not, does that mean the events never happened?

The entire question for this writing, and every other one, reposes on one matter: do you believe what you read or not.

There seems to be a bigger matter you're missing -- is truth dependent on whether or not people believe it?
 
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TLK Valentine

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And I will answer my own question to you from the previous post.

That's usually a sign of talking at people instead of to them.

You identify as an agnostic.

OF COURSE you do not believe what I wrote (about myself).

Not so. I believe some of it.

You don't believe what is written in any of the Scriptures.

Again, not so. See what happens when you try to talk at people?

You're not sure whether or not there is God, but you DO know that you're not going to believe some other man's testimony about God.

Not without a good reason.

If you're ever going to believe in God, then God is going to have to reveal himself directly to YOU.

It would help.

Suppose for a moment that he does. But suppose he doesn't answer many, or any, of your questions. Suppose you are left with the fact of a divine encounter, and you know it, but that God didn't discuss religion with you.

I think I would prefer it that way.

You won't be an agnostic anymore after that - you'll KNOW that God IS, even though you can't prove it to anybody else. But you still won't know which, if any, of the religions to believe and follow. You'll just realize that there is an actual truth towards which they are all striving.

Assuming the striving is genuine.

And MAYBE God DID reveal himself to ONE of them, and DID answer the questions, but did not to the others.
Or maybe not.

Maybe one, maybe all, maybe none. All bets are still on the table, last I checked.

Science might be useless to help you. But then again, if God left actual physical miracles you could study - things that, by their very nature, contain physical features that can't exist under the scientifically established laws of physics, but that DO, nevertheless, exist - and that contain prominent religious information in them. THEN science actually COULD help you, because you could study the object sufficiently to be able to say "Natural processes could not have produced this." And if the features of it are also vastly beyond the ability of mankind, you could say "Man could not have produced this either."

Except that such an answer would demonstrate hubris, since neither I nor anyone else can claim to know all the natural processes, or what they are capable of doing.

"Something we haven't figured out yet" is also still on the table.

But there is is nevertheless, your physical miracle, frozen into an object, left by God to be examinable by your science.

And the first question in such an examination must be, "is this a physical miracle, or something we haven't encountered yet?"

And if that object were Hindu, or Muslim, or Christian, or Jewish, or Zoroastrian, it would be strong testimony to the reality of THAT particular faith.

Adherents of that faith would certainly claim so

Now suppose that ALL of the physical miracles that are examinable are all within the boundaries of ONE religion. That would actually give you a scientific proof of God.

Incorrect. It would, however, be a pretty sizable mountain of supporting evidence.

Granted, an atheist or an agnostic would probably reject the proof, suspecting that the "proof" itself was a lie - that the forensic science wasn't honest. But if you'd already spoken to God, so you already knew THAT part of the picture, the fact that every miracle frozen in matter that was left by this God to be able to be studied all contain information verifying only one religion, would mean that those objects were a physical proof of a specific God, FROM that God, and would give the God who spoke to you a name.

I think the term for that is "confirmation bias."

That is the only way that you will come to believe under normal circumstances.

One might argue that no circumstance involving miracles can be considered "normal."

In terrorem mortalis - with the plane plunging in flames from the sky having you inside it, you - and everybody else - will be crying out to a God they don't believe in - there are no atheists in foxholes - but if the plane is somehow saved and you don't die, the saving of your life will never prove God to you. You need to see him, hear him, etc. Otherwise, you will not believe.

Actually, there are quite a few atheists on foxholes... not everybody suspends their rationality in times of great stress.

So, if God really cares about you, he's going to have to cross that gap and reach out to you, because what he's left you to see so far is unconvincing. Right?

Something is going to have to happen, but since it hasn't, I can't honestly claim to know what it would take... but I'll know it when it happens.
 
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Hieronymus

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Where did Darwin claim that?
In his famous book:
"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

(Favoured by whom?)
 
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Subduction Zone

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In his famous book:
"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

(Favoured by whom?)
In this case it would be life that survived. What he was doing in that work was to explain why certain species survived and evolved over the years.
 
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Reasoning

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In his famous book:
"On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

(Favoured by whom?)

You have to do better than that, please quote the chapter and page. Darwin's book is very often misquoted and pulled out of context (for example his human eye passage).

It is besides the point that Darwin was wrong on some points, and contemporary science has corrected those, plus adding many more pieces of evidence leading to the now fact of evolution.
 
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-57

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Why do you say that? You do realize that all of the scientific evidence out there supports evolution and only evolution, don't you? How do you explain that fact?
I've mentioned before evolutionism isn't a fact. For you to suggest it is would be an error on your part.

There is nothing that would cause the information in DNA code to increase to what we see today. Codes require a programmer.
 
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