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Evidence from Sola Scriptura - right from the Bible itself

Hieronymus

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How has it proven itself?
All debunkings have failed or are just assumptions yet to fail or conjectures.
You do realize that it was the evil Catholic church, who hand copied the Bible all those generations.
Liar.
That church didn't exist before the 5th century.
After Nicea Rome adopted and adapted it.
It'srecorded history.
You wouldn't even know of the existence of a Bible if it wasn't preserved by the Apostolic churches.
Then you must have never heard of the Textus Receptus.
Also, there were other apostolic churches besides the one in Rome.
I highly doubt the RCC is the same as the church of Rome in the first centuries.
Not "so", because your premises are flawed.
the question is, if you trusted the Church in preserving the Bible for 2000 years (or at least 1500 until the Rebellion), why don't you trust her now?
I just explained that.
 
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Erose

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All debunkings have failed or are just assumptions yet to fail or conjectures.
. What debunkings have failed, and why did they fail.

Liar.
That church didn't exist before the 5th century.
After Nicea Rome adopted and adapted it.
It'srecorded history.
. Obviously history isn't your strong suite. I always wondered why some Protestant churches feel the need to lie to their congregations by rewriting history? The only people who believe the Catholic Church came into existence in the 5th century, is some out in left field evangelicals, who for some reason cannot accept history.

Then you must have never heard of the Textus Receptus.
Yep, I've heard of it. You may want to spend some time learning where it came from.

Also, there were other apostolic churches besides the one in Rome.
I highly doubt the RCC is the same as the church of Rome in the first centuries.
Yes there was, but from which one of those Apostolic Churches did the Protestants get the manuscripts that they interpreted?
Not "so", because your premises are flawed.I just explained that.
Considering that you didn't prove any of them are flawed...
 
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Erose

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You're a Catholic, you believe in your Church and what they tell you.
I didn't expect anything else.
When it comes to history, I believe what the historical evidence says. I don't depend upon my Church to teach me history, unlike it seems you allow yourself to do.

There is no evidence from the historical record, that the Christian Church ceased to exist in the 5th century and was replaced by the Catholic Church. None, notta.
 
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Hieronymus

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How do you know it is trustworthy?
Because it never changes its mind, unlike people, let alone power-hugry people
The Roman Empire under Constantine decided to use it as a means to control the population.
That is why they adapted it, mixed it with pagan stuff, as we all know.

Your claim the Bible is put together by the Catholic Church is not only a blatant lie, it sows doubt about the Bible, because of the corruptions of Christianity brought to us by the RCC.
It's why i never believed anything the Bible has to say.
But it turns out the Canon much is older than Nicea and therefore older than the RCC.

This is recorded history.
But that doesn't stop you from spreading the lies.
Maybe you have been mislead, but you seem to embrace it.

I'm sorry this is the case and i do not hate you.
 
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Hieronymus

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that the Christian Church ceased to exist in the 5th century and was replaced by the Catholic Church. None, notta.
That's not what i said.
They tried though, to eradicate Christians who wouldn't subscribe to Roman Catholicism.
That's also recorded history, written in blood.
 
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Erose

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Because it never changes its mind, unlike people, let alone power-hugry people
Well, you are right the Bible doesn't have a mind, but the people who interpret does, thus you get all these variations of interpretation.

The Roman Empire under Constantine decided to use it as a means to control the population.
Constantine, did no such thing. The only thing Constantine did for the Church, was to cease its persecution. The edict of Milan, only did that. Paganism was still the official religion of the empire under Constantine.

That is why they adapted it, mixed it with pagan stuff, as we all know.
Who knows? Seriously the doctrines of the Church really don't have much in common with Paganism.

Your claim the Bible is put together by the Catholic Church is not only a blatant lie, it sows doubt about the Bible, because of the corruptions of Christianity brought to us by the RCC.
Sorry my friend, but you need to realize the fact that the Catholic Church set the Christian canon in the 4th and 5th centuries. Have you researched yet where the Textus Receptus comes from yet? Or who Erasmus was, and what Church he belonged to?

It's why i never believed anything the Bible has to say.
Ok.

But it turns out the Canon much is older than Nicea and therefore older than the RCC.
. The individual writings are much older than Nicea, you are correct. But the determination of an official canon (I.e. Table of contents) was after Nicea, not before or during.

This is recorded history.
But that doesn't stop you from spreading the lies.
Maybe you have been mislead, but you seem to embrace it.
. You need to spend time reading history outside your Sunday school class. You may be surprised what you learn.

I'm sorry this is the case and i do not hate you.
Ok. Don't hate you either.
 
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Erose

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That's not what i said.
They tried though, to eradicate Christians who wouldn't subscribe to Roman Catholicism.
That's also recorded history, written in blood.
Again whose recorded history, obviously not that history subscribed to by most historians. Question who are these Christians, who were not Catholic, who survived?
 
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Hieronymus

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Problem at hand:
No seeker trusts the RCC if they're not part of it.
And with these RCC boastful claims they don trust the Bible either, because millions of people believe / assume the RCC wrote the Bible.

And THAT's what pees me off.
Credibility ruined by institutional arrogance, delusion and false claims.
 
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Erose

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Just for the record, this makes me rather emotional.
But i'm not saying there are no Christians in Catholicism or that Catholicism is un-Christian from the get go.
And i'm sorry to insult what you subscribe to.
Ok. I don't feel insulted. I have no issues having an honest discussion with other here. I get that you have been taught by your faith tradition that Catholicism is evil and of the devil, as has so many others. Perhaps one day, spending time here or in your own personal study, you will learn, as many Protestants on this forum do, that your understanding that the Catholic Church is the anti-Christ is really nothing more than propaganda.
 
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BobRyan

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Wait, you're appealing to Scriptures from the hand-picked-by-the-RCC-and-accepted-as-canon-based-on-tradition-only-New-Testament? How is that gonna work?

1. The RCC did not exist in the first century and nobody in the first century was saying "hey wait let's not read the NT letters until some of our unborn children come along to tell us what to read" -- as we all know by now.

2. The Jews were not ignoring the Hebrew Bible that they had full and complete for 400 years at the time of Christ saying "let's not read that Bible until some Christian unborn children come along centuries later to tell us what is scripture" -- as we all know by now.

So then back to the actual texts that say what others claim "is impossible to have said" --
 
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BobRyan

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Each time you argue that these texts could not possibly exist because the unborn children of the NT Bible writer had not come along yet to tell them what is scripture - you show that your speculation does not "survive the text". --



Acts 17
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see IF these things were so.


Luke 24


27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

And Christ said this - about "Sola Scriptura" testing of church tradition and doctrine.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

In Isaiah 8:19 we find this "to the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word there is no light in them".

There again we have sola scriptura - being taught.


And Paul insists that he and everyone else be tested that same way -

Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
 
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Hieronymus

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Ok. I don't feel insulted. I have no issues having an honest discussion with other here. I get that you have been taught by your faith tradition that Catholicism is evil and of the devil, as has so many others.
I have no faith tradition.
Perhaps one day, spending time here or in your own personal study, you will learn, as many Protestants on this forum do, that your understanding that the Catholic Church is the anti-Christ is really nothing more than propaganda.
RCC is not the anti-christ.
But i can imagine someone would believe it is.
The Pope stated that Christianity leads to Judaism (or something to that effect), so they will probably fall for the actual anti-christ, the false messiah.

Look, i've studied this stuff too, you know.
The facts speak for themselves.
Catholic Mary, the Pope, the Eucharist is quite blasphemous when the Bible is your doctrinal authority.
I wish it wasn't so, but i can't change anything about it...
 
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Erose

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Problem at hand:
No seeker trusts the RCC if they're not part of it.
Hum. Quite honestly no seeker trusts any other faith tradition if they are not part of it. That is the way it is. Before I became Catholic, I vetted the teachings of the Church, with Scripture, and my at the time limited reading of the early Church Fathers. I after a period of time realized the truth of the Church's claims through this study. You see, Hieronymus, I was not born Catholic, I became Catholic, because that is where God led me. You may refute this, which is fine, but I cannot, for that is what happen to me.

And with these RCC boastful claims they don trust the Bible either, because millions of people believe / assume the RCC wrote the Bible.
No you got it completely wrong. I trust the Bible completely. I don't trust myself to be its sole interpreter. I do interpret passages for myself, no doubt, but that is for my personal benefit. But I don't trust myself to be smarter than everyone else on this planet. I just can't bring myself to that level of arrogance.

You see, if what you claim is true that all one needs is the Bible and the Holy Spirit, and you will learn all truth; well then it seems that there are a lot of people being led astray, since there doesn't seem to be among those who rely exclusively on this model, consensus in all doctrinal matters.

And THAT's what pees me off.
Credibility ruined by institutional arrogance, delusion and false claims.
Yeah, your faith tradition does have issues.
 
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Erose

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Each time you argue that these texts could not possibly exist because the unborn children of the NT Bible writer had not come along yet to tell them what is scripture - you show that your speculation does not "survive the text". --



Acts 17
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see IF these things were so.


Luke 24


27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

And Christ said this - about "Sola Scriptura" testing of church tradition and doctrine.


Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

In Isaiah 8:19 we find this "to the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word there is no light in them".

There again we have sola scriptura - being taught.


And Paul insists that he and everyone else be tested that same way -

Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Bob, you do realize that no matter how often you post these passages, they still aren't going to claim what you want them to claim. That isn't how it works.
 
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BobRyan

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How has it proven itself? You do realize that it was the evil Catholic church, who hand copied the Bible all those generations.

Again you appeal to events long after the scriptures were written and read - as if you can insert those events back into the writing of the scripture and all those who read the scriptures centuries before the events you reference ever took place.

The result is that the speculation you use - is arguing against the text -- arguing that the SS practice we see LONG before there even IS an RCC council or monk or monastery -- "is not possible" - and yet - there it is ... debunking the speculation that is offered against it.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, you do realize that no matter how often you post these passages, they still aren't going to claim what you want them to claim. That isn't how it works.

On the contrary - the mere quote of the text is sufficient to give rise to strong opposition to it.

The text is evident and obvious -- no matter those who wish to ignore every detail in it. When your argument is "against the text" then -- posting "the text" ... is sufficient for the unbiased objective readers.
 
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Erose

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I have no faith tradition.
Yes you do, you just refuse to accept it.

RCC is not the anti-christ.
But i can imagine someone would believe it is.
I bet you can.

The Pope stated that Christianity leads to Judaism (or something to that effect), so they will probably fall for the actual anti-christ, the false messiah.
Citation please, and not from one of these ambiguous sources that no one can fact check.

Look, i've studied this stuff too, you know.
Ok.

The facts speak for themselves.
Yes they do.

Catholic Mary, the Pope, the Eucharist is quite blasphemous when the Bible is your doctrinal authority.
I wish it wasn't so, but i can't change anything about it...
Actually they are not, since Mary, Peter and Eucharist are in Scripture.
 
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Erose

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Again you appeal to events long after the scriptures were written and read - as if you can insert those events back into the writing of the scripture and all those who read the scriptures centuries before the events you reference ever took place.

The result is that the speculation you use - is arguing against the text -- arguing that the SS practice we see LONG before there even IS an RCC council or monk or monastery -- "is not possible" - and yet - there it is ... debunking the speculation that is offered against it.
I'm not appealing to anything but the passages you posted. They DO NOT SAY WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO SAY. And that isn't going to change, no matter how often you post them.
 
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