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Genesis is a plagiarized myth

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ecco

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ecco said:
I've seen many rainbows. Yet I haven't been drowned in a five mile high flood.
You presumably haven't been obliterated by an explosion that allegedly brought about a universe from nothing and yet you presumably subscribe to that, too.

I don't subscribe to "an explosion that allegedly brought about a universe from nothing". Perhaps you're referring to the Big Bang which is not "an explosion that allegedly brought about a universe from nothing".

Odd argument.

Not odd if you had read my comment in the context of the post to which I was responding.
 
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ecco

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ecco said:
ETA: A flood for which there is absolutely no evidence.

Then you tell me how sea life fossils ended up in mountain ranges.
Try reading and learning.
images

Go ahead, I'm waiting. Lemme guess, something like "a prehistoric monkey decided to eat something from the sea and then carry its remains up into the mountains just to laugh at future humans who would later find it", right?
That sounds more like Creationism.
 
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Job8

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The Book of Genesis is largely based on the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh.
How do you know that the Epic of Gilgamesh was not plagiarized from some other source? And why would it be necessary to "plagiarize" when the One who knows all things and created all things gave those words in Genesis to Moses? This is such a pathetic attempt to discredit the Bible that it needs no further comment.
 
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ecco

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ecco said:
Multiple stories of floods occurring at many different places are not the same as one big flood that covered the entire earth to five miles above sea level for about six months.


You means because the stories are from multiple sources,
this discredits the event?
No. The event is discredited because all the creation story local floods happened at many different times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
A world-wide deluge, such as described in Genesis, is incompatible with modern understanding of the natural history and especially geology and paleontology.

But don't let scientific facts stand in the way of your beliefs.
 
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Job8

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It's an objective fact that Genesis is indeed plagiarized, and indeed a myth.
"Objective fact" according to whom? The Higher Critics? How about conservative and believing Bible scholars? How about Jewish traditional beliefs about authoriship?

Mosaic authorship
, or leMoshe miSinai ("given to Moses on Sinai") is the Jewish tradition (later adopted by Christian scholars) that the Torah was dictated to Moses by God, with the exception of the last eight verses of Deuteronomy, which describe the death and burial of Moses.[1][2] The 8th principle of the 13 Principles of Faith that were established by Maimonides states "The Torah that we have today is the one dictated to Moses by God".[3]
Wikipedia.
 
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Hoghead1

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The Mosaic authorship if the Pentatuech, Job 8, was carefully reviewed and critiques, and rejected by modern biblical scholarship back the latter part of the 19th century. This isn't a matter of attacking Scripture; it is a matter of challenging one's theories about how the Pentateuch was actually written.
 
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SkyWriting

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pat34lee

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Christians who hide from, deny, or oppose reality hurt our credibility and hence our mission. Saint Augustine made that clear over 1,000 years ago.

It's an objective fact that Genesis is indeed plagiarized, and indeed a myth. That's OK.

Ok for who? Not me. I don't believe in a god who lies and tells fairy tales.
My God made the universe and everything in it, including us.

Why worry about who found the older manuscripts? The vast majority of
old books are dust or ash. Prove there was never an older copy of Genesis.
 
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ecco

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ecco:
Yet I haven't been drowned in a five mile high flood.
No one said the depth was 5 miles.
Are you saying that Mount Everest did not exist at the time of the Great Flood?

Genesis 7
19 And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered.
20 The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.
High Mountain = Everest = 29,029 feet = 5.49 miles (plus the fifteen cubits, of course)


Or are you saying Genesis is wrong?
 
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Soyeong

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ecco:
Yet I haven't been drowned in a five mile high flood.

Are you saying that Mount Everest did not exist at the time of the Great Flood?

Genesis 7
19 And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered.
20 The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.
High Mountain = Everest = 29,029 feet = 5.49 miles (plus the fifteen cubits, of course)


Or are you saying Genesis is wrong?

It is highly doubtful that Noah travelled everywhere on the globe to check if it was covered with water or that he checked more than a tiny fraction of the earth's 196.9 million mile^2 surface area. Everything he saw was covered in water and that's all that's really being said.
 
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Soyeong

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ecco said:
Multiple stories of floods occurring at many different places are not the same as one big flood that covered the entire earth to five miles above sea level for about six months.



No. The event is discredited because all the creation story local floods happened at many different times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
A world-wide deluge, such as described in Genesis, is incompatible with modern understanding of the natural history and especially geology and paleontology.

But don't let scientific facts stand in the way of your beliefs.

The word "erets" can refer all of the land, but it is also used in the Bible to refer to local areas such as the land of Israel or the land of Egypt. Even a flood that covered 1.969 million mile^2 area would still be only 1% of the earth's total surface area.
 
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Hoghead1

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Generally, yes, historical Judaism assumed that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. However, there were times when this was debated. Also the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch was challenged by Kartstadt, during the Protestant Reformation. IO age the matter a lot of study. I have a strong background in modern biblical studies. I almost took my doctorate in that area, because I am good with languages, although I eventually decided on theology. I do not hold with the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch because it dos not hold up based on a careful content and literary analysis of the texts. This is most particularly evidenced in the Genesis account of creation, as I shall explain. Now, of course, some will say we biblical scholars are unduly attacking and bashing the Bible or attacking God. Not true. The Bible itself and God himself are not what is in question here. What is in question are certain human-made theories about how God may have been related tot he writing of Scripture. I interpret the Genesis account as follows:




When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



P.S. Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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Anthony1970

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Anthory1970, you might want to take a careful look at my remarks in Post 57, right above.

Not intending to insult you, but that don't make no sense!:)

say that again in English. You textual critics lose me with your two dollar words.

edit: I reread what you wrote and now it makes sense. I disagree, but I understand your point of view.
 
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Anthony1970

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ecco said:
Multiple stories of floods occurring at many different places are not the same as one big flood that covered the entire earth to five miles above sea level for about six months.



No. The event is discredited because all the creation story local floods happened at many different times.

.

Proof?
 
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Anthony1970

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ecco:
Yet I haven't been drowned in a five mile high flood.

Are you saying that Mount Everest did not exist at the time of the Great Flood?

Genesis 7
19 And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered.
20 The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.
High Mountain = Everest = 29,029 feet = 5.49 miles (plus the fifteen cubits, of course)


Or are you saying Genesis is wrong?

Do you have a measurement of Everest during each eon of geological development? Was Everest always 29k feet? Was there a time when Everest was perhaps 20k feet? Was there a time when Everest was below sea level? Proof?
 
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