Logical Problems with Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

I do not care what you call it, my friend. Just give me a parable like the way Jesus did it so as to illustrate the spiritual goodness behind OSAS. In other words, create a truth in the physical world that parallels what you believe defends the goodness of OSAS.

I'm just sorry that the Bible holds no sway with you. There is nothing I can do for that. For the Bible trumps anything that may occur in your so-called real world, or fantasy parables.

Again, you cannot use the quoting of Scripture.[/QUOTR]
Says who? That is a totally ridiculous statement from one who claims to be a Christian. I would expect that kind of statement coming from an atheist. I'll ALWAYS quote Scripture when it refutes the nonsense and untruths of others. Whether Christian or not.

I will continue to do this because the Word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any 2 edged sword, piercing even between soul and spirit, and joints and marrow, and is a critique of the thoughts and intentions. Heb 4:12

We are talking about a parable here.

No, we're not. Only you are.

[QUTOE] I want a parable in your own words.

I've been told that people in hell want ice water.

Anyways, thank you;
And may God bless you this fine day.

What are you thanking me for? I'm really not sure.

And such an ending to your posts seems rather hollow. Or insincere. Given the pounding you've received from nearly everyone here, this kind of ending doesn't ring true.

Side Note:

However, please keep in mind that I know why you have been resistant in creating a parable to defend the goodness of OSAS. It is because you can't do it, my friend. Unless of course you want to take the challenge and create a parable and prove me wrong (that is).....

What you think you know, You may continue to "think" whatever you want to "think". Doesn't matter.

I've thoroughly explained WHY your request is bogus. I've given actual Scripture that refutes your views. And all of us know that you aren't impressed with Scripture and would prefer some parable, even after I showed Jesus' own words about WHY He used them and WHO He used them on.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Okay good.

Now, that you understand that the words "Keep not his commandments" = "sin" in 1 John 2:4, we can read it like this....

"He that saith, I know him, and sins [keepeth not his commandments], is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

I've always understood the words. Don't be silly.

So this is the context of 1 John 1:8. It is saying that in the present tense he that says he knows him and yet sins is a liar and the truth is not in him.

If that is true, then by your own words from post #2344, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. For you've admitted that you still sin.

In other words, 1 John 2:4 is against the idea of one thinking they can sin and say that they know Him. This is added details or context one needs when reading 1 John 1:8. In other words, both 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4 are saying that a person is ignoring their sin or they ignoring the fact that they are breaking God's Commands and claiming to know or have fellowship with Him.

Finally, we have come to agreement. Yes, ch 1 is all about fellowship with God and Christ. And when the believer sin, they do NOT have fellowship with God or Christ. Which was John's point.

iow, we cannot sin and at the same time have fellowship with God and Christ. Impossible. Sinning is grieving (Eph 5:18) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.

They are lying and the truth is not in them. For 1 John 1:6 adds the details needed for 1 John 1:8 in the fact that the believer is claiming to have fellowship with God while they are also walking in darkness. This is the context. 1 John 1:6 is connected to 1 John 1:8 which in turn is also connected to 1 John 2:4. The text is connected together and not separate.

Amazing that you finally seem to understand what I've been saying.

But if your interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is true, then 1 John 2:4 would be a verse that would directly contradict it; And that is not possible because the Bible cannot be in error.

I see absolutely NO contradiction between my understanding of 1:8 and 2:4.

Again, the New English Translation should clear up any confusion for you on 1 John 1:8.

For it says,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (New English Translation).​

The Expanded Bible says the same thing,

"If we say we ·have no sin [or have no sin nature; or are not guilty of sinning], we are ·fooling [deceiving] ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (Expanded Bible).​

Neither of these translations says anything different than what I've already said about 1:8.​

No. First, this passage in John 13 is not talkng about fellowship. Jesus says that one of them is not clean (i.e. Judas).

You've missed my point. I never said the passage was about fellowship. It was about humility (feet washing, the dirtiest and lowliest job a servant could have), but because of rock-head Peter, Jesus had to "side bar" him and teach him about fellowship. Jesus affirmed his relationship (you are clean-saved), but Peter still needed to have his feet washed. That's what abiding is all about; fellowship.

"He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you" (John 13:10).

Judas was clearly not a saved man, so it is clear that being "clean" or "not clean" is referring to salvation here.

Yes, Judas was not saved. But those who ARE clean (has bathed) STILL need to wash his feet. This is the ongoing cleansing for sin that 1 Jn 1:9 is about.

Back in Jesus' day, walking on the roads and paths resulted in FECES getting on one's feet. So, when entering a building or house, they NEEDED to have their feet washed, which was assigned to the lowliest slave. If one did not wash their feet, they would be an OFFENSE to those in the house. It would have been very rude.

The same is true spiritually. All believers will continue to sin, and all believers need to continue to confess their sins, to receive forgiveness and cleansing from all unrighteousness

Second, when Christ said, to Peter, "you have no part with me", we can see similar wording of to "have part" that is used by John in Revelation. John says, "Blessed and holy is he who has his part in the first resurrection.

Let's not try to mix and match verses. Context determines everything. The contexts are NOT the same.

Three, actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief....

None of these are about being out of fellowship and not saved.

#1 in context shows that those who have believed HAVE eternal life.
#2 is about relationship, not fellowship.
#3 is about relationship, or lack thereof. The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit is given to every believer. Those who don't have the Spirit haven't believed in Christ.
#4 is about God's discipline for those who abandon Him. Through physical death.
#5 is about fellowship, but the verse isn't about eternal death. It's an agrucultural metaphor about being useful or not. Those believers who don't abide in Christ aren't useful and are cast aside, just as a farmer would cast aside a branch that isn't producing.
#6 is about fellowship by walking in the Light and being cleansed, which is further clarified in v.9.
#7 is another agricultural metaphor about being useful to God or not. The Jews prided themselves on being God' chosen people, so Paul here tells them that God doesn't use those who don't have faith in Him. He casts them aside. And in Rom 11:29, Paul clearly says that God's gift are irrevocable, having previously described exactly what he meant by God's gifts: justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23.

So, those who have received eternal life, cannot lose it. The gift is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Missed my point completely. You said: "The Bible DOES say we are to be imitators of Christ; And we DO KNOW that Christ spoke in parables. So it is a logical conclusion that if one were to imitate Christ in the good things He did, then telling parables would be a part of that."

You said that because Jesus spoke in parables, you should speak in parables (which, BTW is one of the strangest things I have read on CF, and I've read some straaaaaaange things here). So I replied: Based on this logic you should try to get yourself nailed to a cross, forgive sins and turn water into wine.

I'll add that you should also get 12 disciples, and walk around Galilee dressed in a seamless robe.

Perfectly logical, given what Jason had posted.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Missed my point completely. You said: "The Bible DOES say we are to be imitators of Christ; And we DO KNOW that Christ spoke in parables. So it is a logical conclusion that if one were to imitate Christ in the good things He did, then telling parables would be a part of that."

You said that because Jesus spoke in parables, you should speak in parables (which, BTW is one of the strangest things I have read on CF, and I've read some straaaaaaange things here). So I replied: Based on this logic you should try to get yourself nailed to a cross, forgive sins and turn water into wine.

I'll add that you should also get 12 disciples, and walk around Galilee dressed in a seamless robe.

Does the fashion of the times have any benefit spiritually? No.

Can we accept worship like Jesus?
No. Such a thing does not apply to mankind. For we are not God (who alone is to be worshipped).

Can we die upon the cross for mankind's sins and rise from the grave to conquer death and ascend into Heaven to be man's Heavenly high priest? No. Such a thing does not apply to mankind. For we are not God (who is the Saviour of mankind).

Can we use a parable like Christ and like the Canaanite woman? Yes. Jesus was able to speak in such a way whereby only his disciples were able to hear and understand Him. So Christ speaking in parables had an actual purpose or benefit for his followers. Furthermore, Jesus commended the faith of the Canaanite woman and healed her daughter of being possessed by a devil that very hour all because she was able to make a real world example or parable of her own (that expounded upon the parable Jesus had said to her).

In fact, you can read the encounter between Jesus and the Canaanite woman here for yourself (if you don't believe me).

“Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”
‭‭(Matthew‬ ‭15:21-28‬).​

So do you honestly expect me to believe there is no benefit to speaking in parables? Not a chance, my friend. I believe you do not want to admit that believers can use parables because you are afraid deep down that it will expose OSAS to be a lie to you, my friend.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've always understood the words. Don't be silly.


If that is true, then by your own words from post #2344, you are a liar and the truth is not in you. For you've admitted that you still sin.


Finally, we have come to agreement. Yes, ch 1 is all about fellowship with God and Christ. And when the believer sin, they do NOT have fellowship with God or Christ. Which was John's point.

iow, we cannot sin and at the same time have fellowship with God and Christ. Impossible. Sinning is grieving (Eph 5:18) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.


Amazing that you finally seem to understand what I've been saying.


I see absolutely NO contradiction between my understanding of 1:8 and 2:4.

Neither of these translations says anything different than what I've already said about 1:8.​

You've missed my point. I never said the passage was about fellowship. It was about humility (feet washing, the dirtiest and lowliest job a servant could have), but because of rock-head Peter, Jesus had to "side bar" him and teach him about fellowship. Jesus affirmed his relationship (you are clean-saved), but Peter still needed to have his feet washed. That's what abiding is all about; fellowship.

​

Yes, Judas was not saved. But those who ARE clean (has bathed) STILL need to wash his feet. This is the ongoing cleansing for sin that 1 Jn 1:9 is about.

Back in Jesus' day, walking on the roads and paths resulted in FECES getting on one's feet. So, when entering a building or house, they NEEDED to have their feet washed, which was assigned to the lowliest slave. If one did not wash their feet, they would be an OFFENSE to those in the house. It would have been very rude.

The same is true spiritually. All believers will continue to sin, and all believers need to continue to confess their sins, to receive forgiveness and cleansing from all unrighteousness


Let's not try to mix and match verses. Context determines everything. The contexts are NOT the same.


None of these are about being out of fellowship and not saved.

#1 in context shows that those who have believed HAVE eternal life.
#2 is about relationship, not fellowship.
#3 is about relationship, or lack thereof. The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit is given to every believer. Those who don't have the Spirit haven't believed in Christ.
#4 is about God's discipline for those who abandon Him. Through physical death.
#5 is about fellowship, but the verse isn't about eternal death. It's an agrucultural metaphor about being useful or not. Those believers who don't abide in Christ aren't useful and are cast aside, just as a farmer would cast aside a branch that isn't producing.
#6 is about fellowship by walking in the Light and being cleansed, which is further clarified in v.9.
#7 is another agricultural metaphor about being useful to God or not. The Jews prided themselves on being God' chosen people, so Paul here tells them that God doesn't use those who don't have faith in Him. He casts them aside. And in Rom 11:29, Paul clearly says that God's gift are irrevocable, having previously described exactly what he meant by God's gifts: justification in 3:24, 5:15,16,17 and eternal life in 6:23.

So, those who have received eternal life, cannot lose it. The gift is irrevocable.

Well, I made my case with Scripture and there is really nothing more to say. If you are wanting to see something in the Bible that is not specifically there, no verse or words are going to change your mind about that if you are only wanting to see what you desire to see. I say this because I do not find your belief to be moral or good in any way because I believe OSAS makes for an allowance for sin (whether it be a little bit of sin or a lot of sin) when one can clearly overcome sin by the Sanctification process (According to God's Word).

This is why I want you to illustrate the goodness of OSAS in the form of a parable like the one's Jesus used that does not mention any specific names, or places, etc.

I would like for you to prove to me once and for all that I am really wrong. Are you up for that kind of challenge?

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I mean, have you ever met that person who just never fesses up to his own problems? You know, that guy who blames all his own problems upon everyone else but himself?

This is what I believe Calvinism does.

For Calvinism (which I believe is the origin of OSAS) is an ignoring of responsibility (Which can cause one to be more apathetic in their faith). For salvation appears to be something you must wait upon God to take action in your life, rather than receiving God's gift of grace openly or freely. Man appears to be off the hook in regards to his sin. For according to Calvinism, he can no more come to God unless God saves or regenerates Him first.

Then there is the more extreme form of Calvinism (i.e. Hyper Calvinism) that paints God in a bad light by the fact that it claims God created all evil and sin in this world. The only reason why I can think someone would want to make God to look bad in this kind of way is sort of like those bullies in high school who desire to make you look bad so as to uplift themselves (which can be a temporary fix so as to overcome some kind of pain or abuse they might have experienced growing up or so as to fit in with others so as not to be alone). Also, I believe "hate" is also the driving emotion behind this belief, as well. Hate can be like an addictive drug to a person and it can sicken their mind and thought processes to think it is okay to "hate" or approve of that which is dark or evil.

...

 

[GillDouglas]

I mean, have you ever met that person who just never fesses up to his own problems? You know, that guy who blames all his own problems upon everyone else but himself?

This is what I believe Calvinism does.

For Calvinism (which I believe is the origin of OSAS) is an ignoring of responsibility (Which can cause one to be more apathetic in their faith). For salvation appears to be something you must wait upon God to take action in your life, rather than receiving God's gift of grace openly or freely. Man appears to be off the hook in regards to his sin. For according to Calvinism, he can no more come to God unless God saves or regenerates Him first.

Then there is the more extreme form of Calvinism (i.e. Hyper Calvinism) that paints God in a bad light by the fact that it claims God created all evil and sin in this world. The only reason why I can think someone would want to make God to look bad in this kind of way is sort of like those bullies in high school who desire to make you look bad so as to uplift themselves (which can be a temporary fix so as to overcome some kind of pain or abuse they might have experienced growing up or so as to fit in with others so as not to be alone). Also, I believe "hate" is also the driving emotion behind this belief, as well. Hate can be like an addictive drug to a person and it can sicken their mind and thought processes to think it is okay to "hate" or approve of that which is dark or evil.

...

I will address this momentarily.

 

[GillDouglas]

I mean, have you ever met that person who just never fesses up to his own problems? You know, that guy who blames all his own problems upon everyone else but himself?
This is what I believe Calvinism does.

You're making assumptions about Calvinists. All things without exception are disposed by God, and His will is the ultimate account of all that occurs. He permits all that He wills, including the actions of men, so that what He has ordained will come to pass. However, individual personalities and second causes are fully recognized, not as independent of God, but as having their proper place in His plan. Men are still responsible for their actions.

For Calvinism (which I believe is the origin of OSAS) is an ignoring of responsibility (Which can cause one to be more apathetic in their faith). For salvation appears to be something you must wait upon God to take action in your life, rather than receiving God's gift of grace openly or freely.

Salvation is a gift given by God, a gift not to be taken lightly. It's not something that can be independently acquired or thrown away. Our salvation flows from the fountain of God's mercy and He adopts us, not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but rather He surely gives to some what He definitely refuses to others. (Ephesians 1:5) (Romans 8) (John 6:37)

Man appears to be off the hook in regards to his sin. For according to Calvinism, he can no more come to God unless God saves or regenerates Him first.

To truly grasp what we believe you must understand the nature of men before regeneration. Men are cursed and cursed men are unable to perform any spiritual actions, only actions befitting of their sinful nature. A curse man is a unknowing captive, in fact a willing slave to sin, and entirely unable to deliver himself from its bondage nor would he care to do so until he is made willing by God. Once that change is made, he is no longer a slave to sin but to God. (Romans 6) (2 Corinthians 4)

Then there is the more extreme form of Calvinism (i.e. Hyper Calvinism) that paints God in a bad light by the fact that it claims God created all evil and sin in this world. The only reason why I can think someone would want to make God to look bad in this kind of way is sort of like those bullies in high school who desire to make you look bad so as to uplift themselves (which can be a temporary fix so as to overcome some kind of pain or abuse they might have experienced growing up or so as to fit in with others so as not to be alone).

Nothing, however small, occurs without His ordering or design for its place in the working out of His purposes; and the end of all shall be the manifestation of His glory. The sinful acts of men are included in this plan, even the fall itself. These acts are foreseen, permitted and have their exact place in the Divine design. Just look at the crucifixion of Christ for the example, being both a horrible sinful crime and the saving event for His people, it had its exact and necessary place in the plan as told by the prophets.

Also, I believe "hate" is also the driving emotion behind this belief, as well. Hate can be like an addictive drug to a person and it can sicken their mind and thought processes to think it is okay to "hate" or approve of that which is dark or evil.

You probably want to explain this a bit further. I'm sure no one who calls themselves Calvinist would agree to you saying hate is the drive behind our beliefs. The only thing I hate is my old sinful nature and the flesh I'm trapped in.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You're making assumptions about Calvinists. All things without exception are disposed by God, and His will is the ultimate account of all that occurs. He permits all that He wills, including the actions of men, so that what He has ordained will come to pass. However, individual personalities and second causes are fully recognized, not as independent of God, but as having their proper place in His plan. Men are still responsible for their actions.

Salvation is a gift given by God, a gift not to be taken lightly. It's not something that can be independently acquired or thrown away. Our salvation flows from the fountain of God's mercy and He adopts us, not all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, but rather He surely gives to some what He definitely refuses to others. (Ephesians 1:5) (Romans 8) (John 6:37) To truly grasp what we believe you must understand the nature of men before regeneration. Men are cursed and cursed men are unable to perform any spiritual actions, only actions befitting of their sinful nature. A curse man is a unknowing captive, in fact a willing slave to sin, and entirely unable to deliver himself from its bondage nor would he care to do so until he is made willing by God. Once that change is made, he is no longer a slave to sin but to God. (Romans 6) (2 Corinthians 4)

Nothing, however small, occurs without His ordering or design for its place in the working out of His purposes; and the end of all shall be the manifestation of His glory. The sinful acts of men are included in this plan, even the fall itself. These acts are foreseen, permitted and have their exact place in the Divine design. Just look at the crucifixion of Christ for the example, being both a horrible sinful crime and the saving event for His people, it had its exact and necessary place in the plan as told by the prophets. You probably want to explain this a bit further. I'm sure no one who calls themselves Calvinist would agree to you saying hate is the drive behind our beliefs. The only thing I hate is my old sinful nature and the flesh I'm trapped in.

You cannot claim man has responsibility in regards to sin and then also say it is God who chooses to save or not save in whomever He desires. Either God does it all, or man really does have free will to be held accountable for his actions.

Also, my statement about those who "hate" is reference to Hyper Calvinists who believe that God hates sinners and God is the creator of all evil and sin.

...

 

[ToBeLoved]

I do not believe God and His Word agrees with a sin and still be saved doctrine. For if such a thing were true, then that would mean God would have to condone a believer's evil. For if a believer taught that they could do evil and be rewarded by gaining entrance into God's Kingdom, it would speak very badly against the good character of the Lord our God. For God is good; And in Him is no darkness at all. Hence, why I believe that anyone who teaches such a doctrine does not have any kind of authority to speak on the behalf of God to me (so as to give me any kind of approved of divine advice).

Side Note:

Oh, and God chastening the believer does not undo the damage done by preaching a sin and still be saved doctrine, either. If a believing child is led into sin (with the thinking they are saved) because of an OSAS preacher, then I imagine Jesus would have some words to say to this man concerning a millstone. In addition, what does chastening even supposed to do for the believer? Is it to get them to stop sinning? Well, that does not make any sense to the OSAS proponent because they deny Sinless Perfectionism or that a believer can ever stop sinning. For one of the OSAS's banner flags is an out of context understanding of 1 John 1:8. So what does chastening do then if one must claim they always have sin?
....

What you have never proven is that Jesus dying for sin is not enough.

What you have also not proven is that people who believe in OSAS sin more because of eternal security.

So what is your proof of these two points?

One of the main issues I have with your hypotheses is that you are bias in your belief that eternal security increases sin. However, it is each believer and their relationship with God. Loving God is a powerful thing for overcoming sin. Listening to the Holy Spirit is powerful way to overcome sin. Those who walk by faith and not by sight.

You are convinced that people who have eternal security ride a wave of sin, but what is your proof of that? Not a personal bias hypothesis of what you personally think.

I'd like evidence.

There must be a study or survey out there that proves your point.

 

[GillDouglas]

You cannot claim man has responsibility in regards to sin and then also say it is God who chooses to save or not save in whomever He desires. Either God does it all, or man really does have free will to be held accountable for his actions.

Also, my statement about those who "hate" is reference to Hyper Calvinists who believe that God hates sinners and God is the creator of all evil and sin.

...

You truly have no understanding of the relationship between God and His children.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What you have never proven is that Jesus dying for sin is not enough.

What you have also not proven is that people who believe in OSAS sin more because of eternal security.

So what is your proof of these two points?

One of the main issues I have with your hypotheses is that you are bias in your belief that eternal security increases sin. However, it is each believer and their relationship with God. Loving God is a powerful thing for overcoming sin. Listening to the Holy Spirit is powerful way to overcome sin. Those who walk by faith and not by sight.

You are convinced that people who have eternal security ride a wave of sin, but what is your proof of that? Not a personal bias hypothesis of what you personally think.

I'd like evidence.

There must be a study or survey out there that proves your point.

You don't seem to understand where I am coming from. Sinning less or sinning on occasion (while confessing sin) is also problem if one believes they will never be able to stop sinning the rest of their life, too. How so? Because God cannot condone or agree with a person's sinful attitude that says they will sin again at some point in the future (Regardless if they sin only on occasion). For if such were the case, then there would be no purpose in anyone in accepting Christ or in abiding and walking with Him. People can just try to live good lives and believe Jesus saves them and go back to living a nice good life without God in it.

For how many sins did it take for Adam and Eve to fall away from God (Whereby they would need a Saviour)? It only took one sin for spiritual death for mankind to fall away spiritually from God. Your acting somehow like sin's effects are now different in some way.

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[Bible Highlighter]

You truly have no understanding of the relationship between God and His children.

Such a statement does not really prove your case in any way.

...

 

[Marvin Knox]

........................
If one doesn't know the meaning of the parables, what use are they? Do you think that there might be a spiritual side verses the natural side? Do you think every natural word Jesus used in the parables had a spiritual meaning? How can anyone know exactly what was meant spiritually in a parable unless it is revealed? Do you now know why I asked you for the meaning of your parable?

Some of us were talking about Jesus explaining a few of His parables in person to His disciples. Remember?

Of course there's a spiritual side to the parables. Parables are a story which can be laid beside and parallel to a spiritual truth in order to help understand that spiritual truth. That's what they are for and I have said as much.

What's more - my own explanation of my parable told clearly the spiritual truth that was the true meaning.

We can know the meaning of the parables (besides the one that was explained in person by the Lord) through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.

I know that you are "serious" when you do post like that one. That's what bothers me most about you.

I don't know if it will do any good at all. But I want you to think hard about what you said and asked here.

This is just a very mild example of the kind of things you do that makes me think that you aren't hitting on all cylinders.

I don't think that I'm alone in that assessment either.

I probably should not have checked in here. The temptation was too great to respond to something like this.

I won't engage with you again here and perhaps not anywhere.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

To the Calvinist:
Do you believe there are choices that man makes that goes against God's will?


...

 

[GillDouglas]

Do you believe there are choices that man makes that goes against God's will?
...

Do you believe the creation is greater than the Creator?

 

[ToBeLoved]

You don't seem to understand where I am coming from. Sinning less or sinning on occasion (while confessing sin) is also problem if one believes they will never be able to stop sinning the rest of their life, too. How so? Because God cannot condone or agree with a person's sinful attitude that says they will sin again at some point in the future (Regardless if they sin only on occasion). For if such were the case, then there would be no purpose in anyone in accepting Christ or in abiding and walking with Him. People can just try to live good lives and believe Jesus saves them and go back to living a nice good life without God in it.

For how many sins did it take for Adam and Eve to fall away from God (Whereby they would need a Saviour)? It only took one sin for spiritual death for mankind to fall away spiritually from God. Your acting somehow like sin's effects are now different in some way.

...

You replied to my post, but none of this pertains to the questions I asked.

I asked for proof showing Jesus dying for sin was not enough and proof showing that those with eternal security sin more.

Please answer the questions posted. Thanks

 

[GillDouglas]

To the Calvinist:
Do you believe there are choices that man makes that goes against God's will?
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Because we believe He is sovereign over all things, we would respond that nothing is outside of what God has preordained. Why do men make terrible choices that appear to be outside of His will, is a better question. If God wants us to "walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to Him: (Colossians 1:10) like you incessantly preach, why doesn't he give us more specific guidance about our specific choices? Because not everything is revealed to us, and we simply don't have the answers to everything. "It is the glory of God to conceal things" (Proverbs 25:2). God prefers to carry out His purposes in ways that confound, surprise, and humble us.

There is a tremendous glory that God displays when, without giving it all away in advance, we suddenly recognize that He was working His will all along when we couldn't/didn't/can't see it. And He is also merciful to withhold information from us that He knows we aren't ready to know, even if we think we should. God places a higher priority on our being transformed than our being informed. By making terrible choices that lead us to bad places it creates a learning opportunity, a chance to grow, an event in our life that brings us closer to Him.

As you constantly harp on, God has revealed to us how to live godly lives. But the Father is not seeking workers, instead He wants worshipers. He knows that if He made His will for our specific decisions more explicitly known, we would tend to focus more on what we do rather than Who we love. Like the Pharisees, we would tend to focus more on our own actions and actions of others rather than our affection for God and His children.

To add to that, all people make decisions based on what they really love. If someone loves the world, they make choices that reveal this. If someone loves Jesus they increasingly love what He loves as they are transformed by renewed minds. The decisions made will reveal the love for Him and His kingdom. All things in part a piece of His great and grand design. His wisdom and knowledge are unfathomably deep, His judgements are unsearchable and His ways are inscrutable (Romans 11:33).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You replied to my post, but none of this pertains to the questions I asked.

I asked for proof showing Jesus dying for sin was not enough and proof showing that those with eternal security sin more.

Please answer the questions posted. Thanks

Let me answer it in the form of two parables or real world examples to help you to see where I am coming from. If I created a miracle cure for weight loss that was completely natural and it had zero side effects, do you think more people would stop eating less healthy as a result of taking such a cure? Of course they would. What about if there was a law passed that said that people can now do whatever speed limit they like on the high way in the state of Indiana? Do you think more people would speed on the high way? Of course they would. Would they speed even if it was unsafe? Yes, of course they would. More people would speed as a result. It is no different if you tell people there are no consequences to a believer's sin in the after-life. Many have already sinned and many will continue to sin with impunity as a result of such a message (i.e. OSAS).

Anyways, we know that Antinomianism (OSAS) in many cases tends to lead people into being enslaved to their sin and not set free from it. How so? Just check out these testimonies below.

Antinomianism Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & Antinomianism:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on Antinomianism:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & Antinomianism:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

George Sodini - Mass Murderer and Suicide Victim:
http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm


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[Bible Highlighter]

Because we believe He is sovereign over all things, we would respond that nothing is outside of what God has preordained.

No. It's never God's will that a person sins. God does not pre-ordain or put a stamp of approval on babies being murdered (abortions), or in an innocent person being raped, or for a serial killer to go out on a killing spree. Yes, God is aware of the future and what is going to happen, but God does not decree evil to take place. That would make God unrighteous. So it is wrong to say that. God is good and in Him there is no darkness.

God wants a person to live holy. Yet, if God just forced some people to be sinful as if that was their only choice, how would that make God good and holy, and righteous and pure and just? Was there something wrong with those people in whom He chose not regenerate? Were they any different than those He chose to regenerate instead? Or was God just choosing randomly so as to determine who is saved and who is not saved? Would there not be something about a person that makes God decide if a person is going to be good or not? But if all people at one point were totally depraved, then how is God choosing them? Also, why would God force some people to be unsaved? Does that sound loving and good?


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