Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Fusion77]

MYTH. You can find no scripture to back this up.

John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN before God's wrath begins, and 3.5 years before Satan is cast down. (Rev. 7)

You're confused the only thing in sequence is the seals, trumpets and vials. Other than that there are interludes. You're going by a faulty time line built off the false premise that revelation from start to finish goes in a chronological time sequence. That is incorrect. You'd do better to look to the prophets to get a correct timeline. The great tribulation is 3.5 years.

 

[Fusion77]

The great earthquake at the 6th seal IS (will be) Paul's "sudden destruction." The rapture will take place at the beginning of this earthquake. The dead in Christ rising will CAUSE this great earthquake. It will be a worldwide earthquake because the dead in Christ are world wide. (See Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened")

Then John SAW the raptured church right after that, in chapter 7. That makes Paul's rapture PRETRIB and PREWRATH.

The Jewish boy that just went to heaven and saw the future tells us that we are MONTHS away from worldwar 3. I certainly believe a war is coming. It is a race: will Israel bomb Iran before they get a nuke, or will Iran nuke Israel first?

I'm pretty sure now that war is the 6th trumpet war.

 

[iamlamad]

A few questions:

1. The two witnesses are first mentioned in Rev 11:3. They have a 3 ½ year ministry, Rev 11:3. They are killed and raised to life in Rev, 11:7-11. What else happens within their 3 ½ years on earth, seals, trumpets, vials or any other event you see happening in that 3 ½ years, please list those events and explain how you arrive at that conclusion?

2. The beast in Rev 13 is given authority to continue 42 months, what events happens within that time period , seals, trumpets, vials or any other event you see happening in that 3 ½ years, , please list those events and explain how you arrive at that conclusion?

3. The woman of Rev. 14 is nourished for 3 ½ years in the wilderness, what events happens within that time period , seals, trumpets, vials or any other event you see happening in that 3 ½ years, , please list those events and explain how you arrive at that conclusion?

4. Do any of the time periods overlap? If so which ones and where? Please show how you arrived at your conclusion? Where do they start an end in the timeline of Revelation?

Anyone other than Bible2+ feel free to jump in.

Thanks. I was going to wait for Bible2 until I saw the last line. You ask some VERY GOOD questions.

When the Two witnesses begin, 3.5 days before the midpoint, the 42 months of trampling will have just begun.

3.5 days later plus a second or two, those living in Judea begin to flee and their count of 1260 days will begin.
Shortly thereafter, the count of 3.5 years begins, as God protects and begins to feed those who flee supernaturally.

Shortly after that (no one knows how long) the 42 months of authority given the Beast begins.

So now we have 5 parallel paths found in Revelation for the last half of the week. As I see it, all but the 42 months of authority will end at the 7th vial that ends the week.

To make Revelation even more difficult to follow, while all five of these counts are running, John has a 6th parallel which is his main story line of the seals, trumpets and vials and all the other things added.

For example, in Rev. 15, while the days of GT are cranking up, with the image worship and mark being enforced, the city is being trampled, the two witnesses are testifying, those fleeing are perhaps still fleeing but being supernaturally protected and fed, and the Beast's authority is still counting down.

 

[iamlamad]

Luke 23:30 I do think could be possibly the Lord telling that, that will be the 6th seal and that it happened in the 1st century? Revelation 6:16 looks very similar to this. And, because it mentions the Lamb it would have to be after the cross.


Again, I can't say for sure, but I think we're a lot further ahead than almost anyone thinks.

The church has been BETWEEN the 5th and 6th seals for nearly 2000 years.

 

[iamlamad]

Fusion 77 said:

Revelation 6:16 just because people mistakenly attribute this to the wrath of God, doesn't make it the wrath of God.


On what do you base your belief the people are mistaken?

on the contrary, they just saw events that the Old Testament call the signs for the Day of the Lord which IS His Day of wrath. In other words, THEY WERE RIGHT ON!

 

[Riberra]

And you will be FORCED to do it again (Change your doctrine) when you discover you have been left behind. Personally I think the average Christian is looking for signs perhaps more than you are. Knowing the truth, that God has dealt with His people differently in different dispensations,
HELPS today knowing what is happening. The world is changing very quickly to line up with what is soon to come, the rapture and then the Day of the Lord.

What if the new dispensation does not include a Rapture of the Church to Heaven before the Tribulation ?I believe that it is normal that nobody wish to be there during the Tribulation ....including me.But there is difference betwen a wish and what Revelation describe. There is no rapture of the Church to Heaven before the Tribulation mentioned in the whole Book of Revelation.

The new dispensation based on the lecture of the Book of Revelation seem to be that all Christians at some point during the Tribulation will need to make a choice betwen the AC/Beast or Jesus and lose their head.Do you believe that you are a Saint?....it seem that Revelation tells -you-and all of us what it will need to become one...

 

[iamlamad]

Why would these people who are walking in darkness have any ability to discern what is or isn't the wrath of God? If this were the wrath of God and angel would announce it, or something to that effect. Not a person being judged for their sin. Revelation 11:18 after the 7th trumpet comes the wrath of God, announced from the heavenly realm. Not by a bunch of foolish men, who rejected Christ.

No, that is written in Greek Aorist tense that HAS NO TIMING information at all. All we can tell is that His wrath DID come, or IS present or WILL come. But anyone who understands the Day of the Lord from the Old Testament recognizes that the TRUMPET judgements are included in the Day of the Lord - a day that God will destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth. That is scripture.

 

[iamlamad]

I believe Rev 6:14 is the same event as Rev 16:20 that would make it the wrath of God at the 7th vial.

What is your take on the order of Revelation?

Ha! Of course it would be you to rearrange.

 

[Fusion77]

The church has been BETWEEN the 5th and 6th seals for nearly 2000 years.

I think you may be wrong. As a matter of fact I'm almost positive you're wrong.

 

[Postvieww]

Why do any "believers" shown in chapter 12 necessarily have to be "the church?" There are other explanations.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Why do we need another explanation? Is this description not that of a born again believer in Christ ?

 

[Postvieww]

Ha! Of course it would be you to rearrange.

Nope, just like John saw it and wrote it down.

 

[iamlamad]

The seals, trumpets and vials are in sequence. Other than that there are interludes in the book of Revelation. The masses are confused, I'm not excluded. In the 7th seal are the trumpets and vials, after the 7th trumpet comes the 7 vials. The mark of the beast will not be in effect until after the 6th trumpet war. Not necessarily immediately, but sometime after and 3.5 years before the 7th trumpet. I don't think you'll be able to find mention of the mark of the beast in any of the seal judgements (until the 7th seal, which holds trumps and vials),or trumpets because it's not in effect.

Revelation 6:16-17 isn't the wrath of God. I can see now that it's just another thing in there that obviously has the masses confused. How could we ever assume that some foolish men have any concept of what THE wrath of God is. I mean, on a personal scale they're going to face the wrath of God, it hell. But, this isn't the wrath of God.

The "is come" in REv. 6 is also a Greek Aorist tense verb - not inflected to show any tense at all. We cannot tell from John's Aorist verbs ANYTHING about timing. However, it seems all through Revelation that things happen at their first mention. If we just look at Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 and see that these signs were WHY they cried out the the Day of His wrath has come, it makes sense. If someone wishes to say His wrath comes with the first trumpet judgment, I would not argue with that. Again, if anyone understands what the Old Testament says about the Day of the Lord, they will instantly recognize that the trumpet judgments are the beginning of the DAY and God beginning to destroy the earth. So OF COURSE the trumpets come with His wrath.

 

[iamlamad]

You're confused the only thing in sequence is the seals, trumpets and vials. Other than that there are interludes. You're going by a faulty time line built off the false premise that revelation from start to finish goes in a chronological time sequence. That is incorrect. You'd do better to look to the prophets to get a correct timeline. The great tribulation is 3.5 years.

I understand these "interludes." Ever go to a play with different "acts" where they close the curtain between the acts? This is EXACTLY what John does between the 6th adn 7th seals. You see, the 7th seal is the official opening of the 70th week which IS the wrath of God. John must "rearrange the set" to match this new act: TWO events MUST be accomplished before the curtain can open (the 7th seal be broken): the 144000 MUST BE sealed, and the church must be safely in heaven. That is what chapter 7 is all about.

Your "incorrect" is what is incorrect. No, the days of GT are NOT 3.5 years. The last half of the week will be 3.5 years, and the GT WOULD HAVE BEEN 3.5 years, but God will SHORTEN that time by pouring out the vials.

AXIOM on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God Given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

 

[Fusion77]

No, that is written in Greek Aorist tense that HAS NO TIMING information at all. All we can tell is that His wrath DID come, or IS present or WILL come. But anyone who understands the Day of the Lord from the Old Testament recognizes that the TRUMPET judgements are included in the Day of the Lord - a day that God will destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth. That is scripture.

on the contrary, they just saw events that the Old Testament call the signs for the Day of the Lord which IS His Day of wrath. In other words, THEY WERE RIGHT ON!

its obvious these people had no concept of Old Testament prophecies. That's part of the reason for them being judged. Because they didn't seek after the Lord. If they had, the Lord would have shown them the Truth. They were blinded and erroneously attributed this to the Wrath of God, but it wasn't. All it does is throw folks like you off even worse. There's no angel or source from heaven announcing this as the wrath off God.

 

[iamlamad]

I'm pretty sure now that war is the 6th trumpet war.

The 6th trumpet war will be a supernatural war. It is an angelic army.

 

[iamlamad]

What if the new dispensation does not include a Rapture of the Church to Heaven before the Tribulation ?I believe that it is normal that nobody wish to be there during the Tribulation ....including me.But there is difference betwen a wish and what Revelation describe. There is no rapture of the Church to Heaven before the Tribulation mentioned in the whole Book of Revelation.

The new dispensation based on the lecture of the Book of Revelation seem to be that all Christians at some point during the Tribulation will need to make a choice betwen the AC/Beast or Jesus and lose their head.Do you believe that you are a Saint?....it seem that Revelation tells -you-and all of us what it will need to become one...

Sorry, but MILLIONS have ALREADY chosen Christ.

 

[iamlamad]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Why do we need another explanation? Is this description not that of a born again believer in Christ ?

Why does the truth have to be the church when other scriptures proof it a fallacy? MILLIONS will turn to Christ when the find they have been left behind. Start with the Lukewarm. Start with millions in Europe that call themselves "Christian" but have never been born again. I guess we don't even need to go to Europe to find these!

 

[iamlamad]

Nope, just like John saw it and wrote it down.

That would NOT be rearranging. The order he wrote it is the right order. We have no business rearranging it to make it fit our theories.

 

[Fusion77]

The 6th trumpet war will be a supernatural war. It is an angelic army.

It's described in Haggai 2:20-23. That's not angelic. That's just the power of God unloosing demons to instigate havoc. But, it was God who released them. So, in essence it's The judgement of God. And why not? You've lived on earth for the last 20 years, as we continue reject God.

 

[iamlamad]

its obvious these people had no concept of Old Testament prophecies. That's part of the reason for them being judged. Because they didn't seek after the Lord. If they had, the Lord would have shown them the Truth. They were blinded and erroneously attributed this to the Wrath of God, but it wasn't. All it does is throw folks like you off even worse. There's no angel or source from heaven announcing this as the wrath off God.

I disagree: how would then even KNOW to call it the Day of His wrath if they did not know the Old Testament? Of course they had to know. John WROTE IT. If you knew what the Old Testament had to say about the DAY, you would instantly recognize that the trumpets are JUDGEMENTS inside the Day of the Lord and very much a part of it.