Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Postvieww]

Luke 23:30 I do think could be possibly the Lord telling that, that will be the 6th seal and that it happened in the 1st century? Revelation 6:16 looks very similar to this. And, because it mentions the Lamb it would have to be after the cross.


Again, I can't say for sure, but I think we're a lot further ahead than almost anyone thinks.

Fusion77 said:

Luke 23:30 I do think could be possibly the Lord telling that, that will be the 6th seal and that it happened in the 1st century? Revelation 6:16 looks very similar to this. And, because it mentions the Lamb it would have to be after the cross.

A couple of points:

Are the “they” of Luke 23:30 “the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man” ?

When did this happen in the 1st century?

Rev 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Again, I can't say for sure, but I think we're a lot further ahead than almost anyone thinks.

Agree with you on this.

 

[BABerean2]

Luke 23:30 I do think could be possibly the Lord telling that, that will be the 6th seal and that it happened in the 1st century? Revelation 6:16 looks very similar to this. And, because it mentions the Lamb it would have to be after the cross.


Again, I can't say for sure, but I think we're a lot further ahead than almost anyone thinks.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:



Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

All in the future...

.

 

[Luke17:37]

A few questions:

1. The two witnesses are first mentioned in Rev 11:3. They have a 3 ½ year ministry, Rev 11:3. They are killed and raised to life in Rev, 11:7-11. What else happens with their 3 ½ years on earth,seals, trumpets, vials or any other event you see happening in that 3 ½ years, please list those events and explain how you arrive at that conclusion?

2. The beast in Rev 13 is given authority to continue 42 months, what events happens within that time period , seals, trumpets, vials or any other event you see happening in that 3 ½ years, , please list those events and explain how you arrive at that conclusion?

3. The woman of Rev. 14 is nourished for 3 ½ years in the wilderness, what events happens within that time period , seals, trumpets, vials or any other event you see happening in that 3 ½ years, , please list those events and explain how you arrive at that conclusion?

4. Do any of the time periods overlap? If so which ones and where? Please show how you arrived at your conclusion? Where do they start an end in the timeline of Revelation?

Anyone other than Bible2+ feel free to jump in.

The kingdom of the Antichrist prevailing over the saints (except the 144,000) is 3.5 years. The first mention of Christians being killed is Seal 5. Therefore, I expect the 3.5 years to have started prior to the fifth seal.

I attribute the double sided scroll from Zechariah 5 to be the same as the scroll Jesus is opening in heaven (with the seven seals). The scroll has two sides - one side has curses against the perjurer and the other against the thief. I consider the perjurer to be the person who claims to be a follower of Christ but is not, and the thief to be the one who tries to obtain salvation by any way except the person of Christ (or who simply rejects the gospel).

The open scroll I believe addresses the trumpets and bowls. The trumpets and bowls seem to correspond (trumpet 2/bowl 2... trumpet 7/bowl 7), so I believe that they are concurrent not consecutive. I believe the trumpet 7/bowl 7 is the end when Jesus will return and thresh His land (Isaiah 27)--killing the armies who crossed the River Euphrates and gathered at Armageddon (see trumpet/bowl 6), along with the earthquake and hail, etc.

Personally I doubt it's possible to survive to the fifth trumpet unless you're one of the 144,000 Jewish sealed believers.

 

[Fusion77]

Fusion77 said:

Luke 23:30 I do think could be possibly the Lord telling that, that will be the 6th seal and that it happened in the 1st century? Revelation 6:16 looks very similar to this. And, because it mentions the Lamb it would have to be after the cross.

A couple of points:

Are the “they” of Luke 23:30 “the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man” ?

When did this happen in the 1st century?

Rev 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Again, I can't say for sure, but I think we're a lot further ahead than almost anyone thinks.

Agree with you on this.

I said this before, that I listen to a radio program called end of the age. The man teaches that we're approaching the 6th trumpet war. I'm agreeing more and more with what he teaches every day. We've missed a lot of what's transpired.


I know the war in Haggai 2:20-23 is our next prophetic event. After that the witness (Zerubbabel is a type of him) will be like the Lords signet. Haggai 2:23 It's after the war after the 6th trumpet. A signet denotes authority. Revelation 11:3 "and I will grant authority to my to witnesses" (signet) then there is a 3.5 -10 year plus gap wherein the witnesses will witness with authority around the world. Then the last leg of their ministry 1260 days, "and they will prophesy clothed in sackcloth 1260 days" Revelation 11:6 they only have the powers when they're prophesy clothed in sackcloth. Before that, but after the war they have authority from God to witness. The Holy Spirit will be poured out with great measure in those final days.

 

[Fusion77]

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:



Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

All in the future...

.

Revelation 6:16-17 just because people this is happening to, mistakenly attribute this to the wrath of God, doesn't make it the wrath of God. The Lord never says this is His wrath. Simply a bunch of people ripe for judgement who obviously weren't walking in the Spirit, they say, in fear it's the wrath of God... But it's not! Thank you Holy Spirit!


Here's an example. If my neighborhood gets destroyed by a tornado, and I mistakenly call it the wrath of God...is it the wrath of God? No! It's no more the wrath of God than if I stub my toe. The Lord never says its His wrath. Only the people here erroneously attribute this to His wrath. Notice the possessive pronoun "their" in verse 17 indicates the people saying this is not the Lamb or Father. Or else "my" or "our" wrath would be used. Besides we know its the people saying this.

 

[Postvieww]

The kingdom of the Antichrist prevailing over the saints (except the 144,000) is 3.5 years. The first mention of Christians being killed is Seal 5. Therefore, I expect the 3.5 years to have started prior to the fifth seal.

I attribute the double sided scroll from Zechariah 5 to be the same as the scroll Jesus is opening in heaven (with the seven seals). The scroll has two sides - one side has curses against the perjurer and the other against the thief. I consider the perjurer to be the person who claims to be a follower of Christ but is not, and the thief to be the one who tries to obtain salvation by any way except the person of Christ (or who simply rejects the gospel).

The open scroll I believe addresses the trumpets and bowls. The trumpets and bowls seem to correspond (trumpet 2/bowl 2... trumpet 7/bowl 7), so I believe that they are concurrent not consecutive. I believe the trumpet 7/bowl 7 is the end when Jesus will return and thresh His land (Isaiah 27)--killing the armies who crossed the River Euphrates and gathered at Armageddon (see trumpet/bowl 6), along with the earthquake and hail, etc.

Personally I doubt it's possible to survive to the fifth trumpet unless you're one of the 144,000 Jewish sealed believers.

Thanks for your response. Let me share a few ideas with you.

Luke17:37 Said:

The kingdom of the Antichrist prevailing over the saints (except the 144,000) is 3.5 years. The first mention of Christians being killed is Seal 5. Therefore, I expect the 3.5 years to have started prior to the fifth seal.

I have a somewhat different approach to Rev. than many here. I believe the first 4 seals have already been opened and maybe the fifth, if not we are at the door.


I attribute the double sided scroll from Zechariah 5 to be the same as the scroll Jesus is opening in heaven (with the seven seals). The scroll has two sides - one side has curses against the perjurer and the other against the thief. I consider the perjurer to be the person who claims to be a follower of Christ but is not, and the thief to be the one who tries to obtain salvation by any way except the person of Christ (or who simply rejects the gospel).


The open scroll I believe addresses the trumpets and bowls. The trumpets and bowls seem to correspond (trumpet 2/bowl 2... trumpet 7/bowl 7), so I believe that they are concurrent not consecutive. I believe the trumpet 7/bowl 7 is the end when Jesus will return and thresh His land (Isaiah 27)--killing the armies who crossed the River Euphrates and gathered at Armageddon (see trumpet/bowl 6), along with the earthquake and hail, etc.

I too believe there is an overlap, but I view it a little differently. I agree on the 7th but not the second.

Consider seals, trumpet and vials all end at about the same time while starting at different times. The seals are an overview or short story of most of the book of Revelation, the trumpets start at some point later in the seals and the vials start at some point later in the trumpets but all three end with the return of Christ and Armageddon just as you said the 7th trumpet and 7th vial do.

I do not believe the 2nd trumpet and 2nd vial are the same because, The 2nd trumpet says:

Rev 8: 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

The 2nd vial says:

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

One says a third in the sea dies the other says all in the sea died.

I am convinced the first five trumpets have already sounded and we are just before or just into the 6th.

It is possible the 2nd trumpet was World War II. For these reasons, when John saw these events in a vision is it not possible he could describe the atomic bomb over Japan “as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea” the war stats show that of the ships that participated in WW II almost exactly one third were destroyed, and with the fog of war it could have precisely one third. Other facts from history line up with the other trumpets.


Personally I doubt it's possible to survive to the fifth trumpet unless you're one of the 144,000 Jewish sealed believers.

You could be right, but I personally believe we are already past the 5th trumpet.

6th seal “wrath is come”

“every mountain and island were moved out of their places”

“hide us from the face of him”



7th trumpet “ thy wrath is come”

“lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail”

“ his temple”

“the dead, that they should be judged”



7th vial “ wine of the fierceness of his wrath”

“voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake” “great hail”

“temple of heaven”

“every island fled away, and the mountains were not found”

 

[Postvieww]

I said this before, that I listen to a radio program called end of the age. The man teaches that we're approaching the 6th trumpet war. I'm agreeing more and more with what he teaches every day. We've missed a lot of what's transpired.


I know the war in Haggai 2:20-23 is our next prophetic event. After that the witness (Zerubbabel is a type of him) will be like the Lords signet. Haggai 2:23 It's after the war after the 6th trumpet. A signet denotes authority. Revelation 11:3 "and I will grant authority to my to witnesses" (signet) then there is a 3.5 -10 year plus gap wherein the witnesses will witness with authority around the world. Then the last leg of their ministry 1260 days, "and they will prophesy clothed in sackcloth 1260 days" Revelation 11:6 they only have the powers when they're prophesy clothed in sackcloth. Before that, but after the war they have authority from God to witness. The Holy Spirit will be poured out with great measure in those final days.

Agree with most of what you wrote here. Not sure about the ten year plus part?

 

[Fusion77]

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:



Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

All in the future...

.

Revelation 6:16 just because people mistakenly attribute this to the wrath of God, doesn't make it the wrath of God.

Agree with most of what you wrote here. Not sure about the ten year plus part?

there are messages veiled in the book of Haggai that are to the witness and to the church. After this war their will need to be the confirmation of the covenant. This will signify about the final 7 years. It will be broken in the midst, 3.5 years. So after the war IF there's an immediate covenant it would be 3.5 years. But it will likely be 5+ after the war until the final 3.5 years. Leaving 1.5 + years after war until a covenant is made.


In other words after the war there's at least 7 years. Because the confirmation of the covenant signals the final 7. This war will set the platform for the AC to come in and take control. He'll gain power through deception and then sometime after that comes the covenant.

 

[Postvieww]

Revelation 6:16 just because people mistakenly attribute this to the wrath of God, doesn't make it the wrath of God.

there are messages veiled in the book of Haggai that are to the witness and to the church. After this war their will need to be the confirmation of the covenant. This will signify about the final 7 years. It will be broken in the midst, 3.5 years. So after the war IF there's an immediate covenant it would be 3.5 years. But it will likely be 5+ after the war until the final 3.5 years. Leaving 1.5 + years after war until a covenant is made.


In other words after the war there's at least 7 years. Because the confirmation of the covenant signals the final 7. This war will set the platform for the AC to come in and take control. He'll gain power through deception and then sometime after that comes the covenant.

Fusion 77 said:

Revelation 6:16 just because people mistakenly attribute this to the wrath of God, doesn't make it the wrath of God.


On what do you base your belief the people are mistaken?

 

[Fusion77]

Fusion 77 said:

Revelation 6:16 just because people mistakenly attribute this to the wrath of God, doesn't make it the wrath of God.


On what do you base your belief the people are mistaken?

Why would these people who are walking in darkness have any ability to discern what is or isn't the wrath of God? If this were the wrath of God and angel would announce it, or something to that effect. Not a person being judged for their sin. Revelation 11:18 after the 7th trumpet comes the wrath of God, announced from the heavenly realm. Not by a bunch of foolish men, who rejected Christ.

 

[iamlamad]

We are currently being pushed into global government and the average Christian has no discernment, because modern Dispensational Theology has so overtaken the modern Church.
We are looking for signs that have already taken place and ignore what we see happening in front of our very eyes.
Why would any Christian ignore the video clip I just posted? How much clearer could it be?
You just heard it in their own words. It is not what I am saying. It is what they are saying.

You can ignore what has been presented in an effort to hold on to your doctrine or you can attempt to change your doctrine to match what is plainly written in God's Word and revealed by the historical record.
It is something I have had to do many times, during the last few years.

.

And you will be FORCED to do it again (Change your doctrine) when you discover you have been left behind. Personally I think the average Christian is looking for signs perhaps more than you are. Knowing the truth, that God has dealt with His people differently in different dispensations, HELPS today knowing what is happening. The world is changing very quickly to line up with what is soon to come, the rapture and then the Day of the Lord.

 

[Postvieww]

Why would these people who are walking in darkness have any ability to discern what is or isn't the wrath of God? If this were the wrath of God and angel would announce it, or something to that effect. Not a person being judged for their sin. Revelation 11:18 after the 7th trumpet comes the wrath of God, announced from the heavenly realm. Not by a bunch of foolish men, who rejected Christ.

I believe Rev 6:14 is the same event as Rev 16:20 that would make it the wrath of God at the 7th vial.

What is your take on the order of Revelation?

 

[iamlamad]

The tribulation period is not the "wrath of God". It is the wrath of Satan upon the Church.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

God pours out His wrath after we are gathered at the 7th trumpet. No one survives God's wrath.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
(Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.)

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

The tribulation period is not the "wrath of God". It is the wrath of Satan upon the Church.

And you think the pretribbers are the blind ones here? If your statement was not so pathetic, it would be laughable. NO ONE can separate the time of Satan's wrath from the time of God's wrath because THEY HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME. God's wrath goes from the 6th seal to the 7th vial and after, while Satan's wrath begins at the midpoint when he is cast down.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
This means THEY WILL DIE. But after all, God said the saints would be overcome.

God pours out His wrath after we are gathered at the 7th trumpet. No one survives God's wrath.

This is even MORE pathetic, escaping reality in several directions at once. NONE Of this is truth. Every point WRONG.
Did you never read of those Gentiles of the nations that come up to Jerusalem to worship the Christ? They SURVIVED God's wrath AND Satan's wrath. If no one survived that would be the END of the human race. There would be NO ONE to judge during the Millennial reign of Christ.

By the way, there IS NO GATHERING at the 7th Trumpet. Your theories are MYTH. How could you be wrong in every point?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Just so you know, 6 comes before 11. You amaze me.

 

[iamlamad]

I know that. The unbelieving Jews will NOT be gathered after the tribulation. They will be left to face the wrath of God, upon the earth. He will bring 1/3 through the "fire". Zechariah 12:10-11. A future event, as the Jews don't except Him as their Messiah. After being brought through the fire and seeing Him whom they've pierced, they'll except Him.

You should know better. God's wrath covers the entire 70th week and beyond, which will run concurrently with Satan's wrath from the midpoint to the end.

 

[Luke17:37]

Thanks for your response. Let me share a few ideas with you.

Luke17:37 Said:

The kingdom of the Antichrist prevailing over the saints (except the 144,000) is 3.5 years. The first mention of Christians being killed is Seal 5. Therefore, I expect the 3.5 years to have started prior to the fifth seal.

I have a somewhat different approach to Rev. than many here. I believe the first 4 seals have already been opened and maybe the fifth, if not we are at the door.


I attribute the double sided scroll from Zechariah 5 to be the same as the scroll Jesus is opening in heaven (with the seven seals). The scroll has two sides - one side has curses against the perjurer and the other against the thief. I consider the perjurer to be the person who claims to be a follower of Christ but is not, and the thief to be the one who tries to obtain salvation by any way except the person of Christ (or who simply rejects the gospel).


The open scroll I believe addresses the trumpets and bowls. The trumpets and bowls seem to correspond (trumpet 2/bowl 2... trumpet 7/bowl 7), so I believe that they are concurrent not consecutive. I believe the trumpet 7/bowl 7 is the end when Jesus will return and thresh His land (Isaiah 27)--killing the armies who crossed the River Euphrates and gathered at Armageddon (see trumpet/bowl 6), along with the earthquake and hail, etc.

I too believe there is an overlap, but I view it a little differently. I agree on the 7th but not the second.

Consider seals, trumpet and vials all end at about the same time while starting at different times. The seals are an overview or short story of most of the book of Revelation, the trumpets start at some point later in the seals and the vials start at some point later in the trumpets but all three end with the return of Christ and Armageddon just as you said the 7th trumpet and 7th vial do.

I do not believe the 2nd trumpet and 2nd vial are the same because, The 2nd trumpet says:

Rev 8: 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

The 2nd vial says:

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

One says a third in the sea dies the other says all in the sea died.

I am convinced the first five trumpets have already sounded and we are just before or just into the 6th.

It is possible the 2nd trumpet was World War II. For these reasons, when John saw these events in a vision is it not possible he could describe the atomic bomb over Japan “as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea” the war stats show that of the ships that participated in WW II almost exactly one third were destroyed, and with the fog of war it could have precisely one third. Other facts from history line up with the other trumpets.


Personally I doubt it's possible to survive to the fifth trumpet unless you're one of the 144,000 Jewish sealed believers.

You could be right, but I personally believe we are already past the 5th trumpet.

6th seal “wrath is come”

“every mountain and island were moved out of their places”

“hide us from the face of him”



7th trumpet “ thy wrath is come”

“lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail”

“ his temple”

“the dead, that they should be judged”



7th vial “ wine of the fierceness of his wrath”

“voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake” “great hail”

“temple of heaven”

“every island fled away, and the mountains were not found”

Yep, we have a different perspective. I see the entire scroll, seals and all, as future, and literal for the most part in its descriptions.

I think the bowls focus on the power seat of antichrist's kingdom and the trumpets on the whole world/universe. I don't see a conflict between the second trumpet and bowl. If the trumpet is looking at the whole world, it kills 1/3 of sea life. If the bowl is thrown into the sea, it kills everything in the region of the sea it touched.

 

[iamlamad]

As, I said many will come to a saving knowledge of Christ in these end times (caught up after the tribulation). After the tribulation, those who disbelieve, will be left to face the wrath of God. 1/3, a remnant, will be brought through the fire. Then look upon Him whom they've pierced. The tribulation is the wrath of satan. Revelation 12:12

Please show us any group (identify who and what scripture) that will be caught up after the 7th vial ends the week.

Please identify (the beginning and end in Revelation) of the period you are here calling "the tribulation."
Then identify the beginning and end of God's wrath as shown in Revelation.
Then identify the beginning and end of Satan's wrath as shown in Revelation.

Scripture shows us that "the tribulation" (the 7th seal to the 7th vial) is ALL done in the wrath of God. NO one can say God is not angry when the Beast is murdering His saints. He pours out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days.

 

[iamlamad]

Based on Revelation 12:11 and many other verses, the Church will be going through the same time period.



Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.

Why do any "believers" shown in chapter 12 necessarily have to be "the church?" There are other explanations.

 

[iamlamad]

The church will go through the wrath of satan but will be caught away before the wrath of God. Romans 5:9.

MYTH. You can find no scripture to back this up.

John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN before God's wrath begins, and 3.5 years before Satan is cast down. (Rev. 7)

 

[Fusion77]

I believe Rev 6:14 is the same event as Rev 16:20 that would make it the wrath of God at the 7th vial.

What is your take on the order of Revelation?

The seals, trumpets and vials are in sequence. Other than that there are interludes in the book of Revelation. The masses are confused, I'm not excluded. In the 7th seal are the trumpets and vials, after the 7th trumpet comes the 7 vials. The mark of the beast will not be in effect until after the 6th trumpet war. Not necessarily immediately, but sometime after and 3.5 years before the 7th trumpet. I don't think you'll be able to find mention of the mark of the beast in any of the seal judgements (until the 7th seal, which holds trumps and vials),or trumpets because it's not in effect.

Revelation 6:16-17 isn't the wrath of God. I can see now that it's just another thing in there that obviously has the masses confused. How could we ever assume that some foolish men have any concept of what THE wrath of God is. I mean, on a personal scale they're going to face the wrath of God, it hell. But, this isn't the wrath of God.

 

[iamlamad]

From what I've seen 99% of Christians are confused by the book of Revelation. I don't claim to understand a lot of the seals or trumpets, because I think many have transpired. My understanding comes from the prophets. Once you understand Zerubbabel is a type of 1 of the 2 witnesses in Zechariah 4 and parts of Haggai, I/you/anybody can see the future to an extent. Our next big event is a Major war. equate that to whatever seal or trumpet you want. Best one 1 see is the 6th trumpet. I find it hard to see how a war that shakes both the heavens and the earth doesn't represent some sort of event outlined in Revelation.


Or do you not understand that Joshua the High priest is a type of the Branch (Messiah) in parts of Haggai and in Zechariah 3 and Zechariah 6. Not because I say so but because Zechariah 3:8 the Lord says so. It's the same with Zerubbabel a type of the witness not because I say so but because the Lord says so Zechariah 3:8. "Thy follows before thee".


The Lord may have included some events in the gospel accounts around 70 Ad to show the 6th seal. I don't know, but it's there for a reason, and not for people who didn't have access to it in 70 AD.

The great earthquake at the 6th seal IS (will be) Paul's "sudden destruction." The rapture will take place at the beginning of this earthquake. The dead in Christ rising will CAUSE this great earthquake. It will be a worldwide earthquake because the dead in Christ are world wide. (See Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened")

Then John SAW the raptured church right after that, in chapter 7. That makes Paul's rapture PRETRIB and PREWRATH.

The Jewish boy that just went to heaven and saw the future tells us that we are MONTHS away from worldwar 3. I certainly believe a war is coming. It is a race: will Israel bomb Iran before they get a nuke, or will Iran nuke Israel first?