Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Fusion77]

I have never doubted that Jesus will build the temple of the last chapters of Ezekiel. Only in a way will the Holy Spirit be taken away: there are millions in the world today anointed by Him. When they go up in the rapture, the anointing goes with them. So in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, there is no one on earth anointed of the Holy Spirit.

Zechariah 3:1-5 is a vision of something that was to occur in the heavenly realm (it's past now). That sin, that the Lord removed wasn't Christs sin (Branch) it was the worlds sin...mine and yours. 2 Corinthians 5:21 1 Peter 2:24. When the Lord came out of the belly of the earth Matthew 12:40 sometime after this Satan was there to say "oh no, no that didn't count, you can't do that." Thats what this is a picture of. Zechariah 3:6 is for our sakes, but it's the Father instructing the Son of what lies before Him. There's people in front of Joshua in the vision, I KNOW Zerubbabel is in front of him. However, we're told there are more than 1, who are a sign of things to come. It's the church.

 

[Bro.T]

Hi Tanzel,

I'm glad my post was helpful to you.

Resurrection-Gathering may be a better term to describe the Post-Tribulation event to avoid confusion.

Yes, these passages in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 about the taken or the destroyed are showing what happens to the wicked at the return of Christ--not the Christians.

Its always a blessing to fellowship in the word of God with good understanding. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

 

[Fusion77]

I have never doubted that Jesus will build the temple of the last chapters of Ezekiel. Only in a way will the Holy Spirit be taken away: there are millions in the world today anointed by Him. When they go up in the rapture, the anointing goes with them. So in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, there is no one on earth anointed of the Holy Spirit.

Don't pay attention if anyone says the Lord won't speak through dreams and visions Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17 tells us the Lord will use dreams and visions to speak to us. Also that we'll prophesy. But, what is the source? The Holy Spirit will be the source of these dreams and visions. so we must test the Spirit. Sometimes we just need to wait and see, in order to see if it the vision holds valid information, or not.

 

[Postvieww]

Note that 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-52 does.



Note that while the corrupt aspects of Mecca are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Mecca. For Mecca just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Mecca the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is Mecca the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has Mecca just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Mecca been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [cf. Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).



Do you also hold to the idea (which is quite common) that the Antichrist's religion will be Islam?

If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, while the Antichrist will say that he is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), while the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

-

Even though Islam (in its current form) won't be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Islam is an anti-gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies that he died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46,47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

The reason why it is necessary to believe these things in order to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during his Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

-

One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says that there was no time when the Koran didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says that before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when he didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

This isn't to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, (again) because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Bible2+

Note that 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-52 does.

That is true, but my point was that just as the coming of Jesus is not mentioned directly in the specific verses about the resurrection (51-52) but is contained in the larger context, and it is assumed to be true in those verses where not mentioned. So is it with Rev. 11, His coming is not directly stated, but it can be assumed by the events that are clearly stated . Your declaration those events happen at a future time is not supported by the text. It appears to me that the main thrust behind that statement is you believe Rev is chronological. If that theory is wrong your declaration is wrong. We will just have to disagree on that point.

For Mecca just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18).

What city does? Islam reigns over ¼ of the earth’s population and is gaining ground everyday. Islam is about to engulf Europe and has a greater grip in the USA than many will admit to.

Nor is Mecca the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11).

No it is not, but if the merchandise of oil is cut off from Saudi Arabia, there will be some weeping going on.

Nor is Mecca the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24)


I believe you put all of your emphasis on the word “all”. What city would meet this standard?


Islam centered in Mecca is responsible for countless deaths. I believe this fits the description as well as any other city on the planet. Which one fits better?


Nor has Mecca just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3).


Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.


What city fits this scripture as well as Mecca, Saudi Arabia?


Nor has Mecca been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).


Where do you get that statement out of the text? I believe the Ottoman Empire was the 7th and is currently being resurrected as the 8th (vs11) before our very eyes.


Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).


Opinion. Disagree.


The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the nations (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes


When Iran nukes Mecca and Saudi Arabia, you might look at this differently. Iran are currently threatening Saudi Arabia.


Do you also hold to the idea (which is quite common) that the Antichrist's religion will be Islam?


I believe he will come out of an Islamic nation. Quite possibly Turkey for reasons previously stated.


If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form,


I don’t accept the multitude of reasons th AC can’t be from Isalm because of……….

Or he has to be Jew because of……….

Or he has to be the Pope because ……….

It’s about delusion and deception.


The parallels to the AC of the bible to the one Islam is looking for are amazing and far too numerous to list here.

John MacArthur Islam and the antichrist, I’m not in agreement with him on rapture. But he nails Islam as the conduit of the AC

the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.


Now we are getting somewhere.


Headline I read yesterday:


‘Pope Francis’ Calls for Collaboration With World’s Religions, Those Who ‘Meet God in Different Ways’


The pope could be the false prophet.

 

[Luke17:37]

That's right.

For Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) in the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

I differ with your last paragraph.

Consider the parable of the wheat and the tares:

Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

So, the wicked will face the wrath of God before the believers are gathered. I believe the Lord Jesus will speak (out of His mouth is the double-edged sword, and His name is the Word of God, "and the rest were killed with the sword that proceeded from the mouth... " - Revelation 19:21) the slaughter of armies who are trampling His land and surrounding Jerusalem (Isaiah 27:12). He spoke to create. He can speak to destroy.

Zechariah 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

... just like the Nazis in Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark, only this is real life (the filmmakers must have read this verse because they captured the image perfectly).

What about the believers, then? Isaiah 26 says they will hide themselves for a moment. The families of Israel, in obedience to God, did the same thing when the death angel moved through the land of Egypt killing the firstborns (Exodus 12:22-23).

Isaiah 26:20-21
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

 

[Fusion77]

I have never doubted that Jesus will build the temple of the last chapters of Ezekiel. Only in a way will the Holy Spirit be taken away: there are millions in the world today anointed by Him. When they go up in the rapture, the anointing goes with them. So in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, there is no one on earth anointed of the Holy Spirit.

The only reason I have an understanding of these is because of a vision. Do you think the true meaning of Zechariah 4 could've been unveiled without a vision? It wasn't my vision, but it all stemed from a vision. Because of that vision the Lord has revealed a plethora of information through the prophets that pertain to us in this day and age.


I didn't believe it at first, or really didn't care about it. Until the Lord began to uncover secrets in His Word that are pertinent to us in these end times. Then it really got my attention, and it changed my life. No vision from the Spirit will ever contradict scripture, because that takes precedent over ALL. The vision that started my understanding, didn't condradict scripture, but revealed scripture spoken through the prophets. I can assure you the words of the prophets will begin to speak in these last days, and we'll be given a better understanding of Gods plan week by week...if we listen with the eyes of our heart.

 

[BABerean2]

Don't pay attention if anyone says the Lord won't speak through dreams and visions Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17 tells us the Lord will use dreams and visions to speak to us. Also that we'll prophesy. But, what is the source? The Holy Spirit will be the source of these dreams and visions. so we must test the Spirit. Sometimes we just need to wait and see, in order to see if it the vision holds valid information, or not.

I have a tendency to agree with your assessment above. The problem is in figuring out if it is really from God.

Based on the many past failed predictions about the return of Christ, we should all understand why.

However, personal prophecy is forbidden on this forum.

.

 

[Fusion77]

I have a tendency to agree with your assessment above. The problem is in figuring out if it is really from God.

Based on the many past failed predictions about the return of Christ, we should all understand why.

However, personal prophecy is forbidden on this forum.

.

How about scriptural prophecy? Is that banned?

 

[Fusion77]

I have a tendency to agree with your assessment above. The problem is in figuring out if it is really from God.

Based on the many past failed predictions about the return of Christ, we should all understand why.

However, personal prophecy is forbidden on this forum.

.

And I do understand. People can have a bad burrito the night before and mistake it for a word from the Lord. That's why everything must be tested. I would never step out on a limb based on a word from 1 individual. If we're in tune, we can discern when the Lord is speaking.

 

[Fusion77]

I have a tendency to agree with your assessment above. The problem is in figuring out if it is really from God.

Based on the many past failed predictions about the return of Christ, we should all understand why.

However, personal prophecy is forbidden on this forum.

.

I never did get an answer back from you after a question I asked a few days ago, at least I don't think I did. If you believe the abomination of desolation has already occurred in 167 BC ...what do you do with scriptures like Matthew 24:15 that
speak of the abomination of desolation as a future event?

 

[keras]

Posts 5996-6000 are good examples of the blind trying to lead the blind.
I laugh at the obvious desperation of some rapture believers to shore up their false theory and when a pre-trib argues with a post-trib, then it gets hilarious! A real clown act!
I post again Jesus' refutation of any removal to heaven:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.
John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one....
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....
Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and extremely un biblical rapture theory.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.
Realize this, you raptureists, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't His plan now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad, while I rarely agree with you, I think you are spot on here.

Hallelujah!

 

[iamlamad]

There is none! No scriptural support of a post trib rapture in Matthew 24:31. Only people like yourself always promoting a rapture here without taking into consideration the elects are gathered from heaven. Here's your scriptural response: "In a rapture, people go up, they don't come down...silly clown."

Where's your scriptural evidence Matthew 24:31 is the rapture? Because you think so?

That's just your opinion, which doesn't hold much credibility, nor scriptural support. Just a bunch of "I think so" theories. Context is key, your opinions are not. Context is everything, your opinions are not. Context is what stands, your opinion does not as it'll be proven wrong once Christ comes for the church and the tribulation begins with sudden destruction.

It's already been addressed. You just haven't figured it out yet cause it keeps going over your head. How long is this thread now with others having tried to explain the rapture to you as well? The only way you'll figure it out is when the rapture happens, millions of people just vanished and you'll still be on CF debating with others on this same thread over the timing of the rapture.

Silly clown!

Exactly! This is why you don't get it! If all trumpets are the same, why does the 7 trumpets being handed out to the 7 angels not referred as 7 trumpets of God? Why are the 7 angels not referred as 7 archangels? Just like everything else, this too went over your head.

.

Psalms, you really "made my day" on this one! Thanks. If I could be so eloquent....

 

[iamlamad]

First answer this question. In a rapture, do people go up or down?


.

In posttrib theory, they yoyo!

 

[iamlamad]

John 14:1
"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

Jesus is telling us that He doesn't want us to worry. As we go through this fourteenth chapter, we will return to this verse several times. If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, and you believe on Him, then you don't have anything to worry about. Now He is going to tell us why.

John 14:2
"In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Have you ever heard Christians say before, "I have a mansion in the sky"? Friend, that is not what "mansions" is talking about here, however it is even more beautiful then those thoughts of a large house in the sky. Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ".

It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.

Wow. This page on this thread is full of clowning around. The truth is JESUS PREPARED THIS PLACE before He ever ascended. Jesus went to heaven to prepare HOUSES OR HOMES for us. MANY by now have gone to heaven and SEEN their mansion with their own eyes, and then got sent back to earth - usually because someone prayed. FOR SURE we will "abide" there in our mansion with NO TROUBLE!

 

[keras]

Hallelujah!

So, Lamad, will you say 'Hallelujah' when the Day of the Lord's wrath comes and you are still on earth?
For that Day will come upon everyone the world over: Jeremiah 25:29b, Luke 21:35, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7

 

[iamlamad]

Posts 5996-6000 are good examples of the blind trying to lead the blind.
I laugh at the obvious desperation of some rapture believers to shore up their false theory and when a pre-trib argues with a post-trib, then it gets hilarious! A real clown act!
I post again Jesus' refutation of any removal to heaven:
John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven.

We all get to chuckle at your posts also. You changed the tense there: With the right tense, it says that at that time no one had gone to heaven. It was written in past perfect tense. He certainly did not say that no one would ever go. The truth is, many have gone to see the place and have returned to tell about it. When you get to meet some of these people in the future, they are going to ask you why you did not believe them.


John 17:15 ...I pray Father, you keep them from the evil one...

He does.
.
John 7:34...where I go you cannot come....
Intended meaning: At this time

36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.


John 8:21-23....I am not of this world, you cannot go where I go....

Intended meaning: at this time...

Revelation 5:10....the saints will reign on earth....
During the 1000 year reign: different time, different subjectl


ALL Words of Jesus that totally, utterly and completely refute the false and extremely un biblical rapture theory.
Only in your mind, not millions of others.

John 14:1-3 is not talking about a rapture removal to heaven. Jesus says: I will come back.... from heaven to earth and then: we will always be with Him.

Certainly He will - but DIFFERENT coming.

Realize this, you raptureists, a removal to heaven was never part of God's plan for ancient Israel and it isn't His plan now.
Do you say the Lord's prayer? ......Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven......Who is tasked to carry out His will on earth? Us Christians, that's who and hoping to be removed when things get tough is nothing short of escapism and cowardice.

One day, when pretrib happens are you are left behind wondering, you will know.

 

[iamlamad]

So, Lamad, will you say 'Hallelujah' when the Day of the Lord's wrath comes and you are still on earth?
For that Day will come upon everyone the world over: Jeremiah 25:29b, Luke 21:35, Isaiah 66:15-17, 2 Peter 3:7

I will be be here to say Hallelujah. Read the scriptures. I guess you have chosen to set your OWN appointment. I won't.

 

[iamlamad]

Satan is not the one who kills the two witnesses. The person who becomes the beast is who kills the two witnesses.

Satan (the dragon), the beast, and the false prophet are three separate individuals.

RIGHT ON, DOUGGG!

 

[BABerean2]

I never did get an answer back from you after a question I asked a few days ago, at least I don't think I did. If you believe the abomination of desolation has already occurred in 167 BC ...what do you do with scriptures like Matthew 24:15 that
speak of the abomination of desolation as a future event?

It was a future event when Jesus spoke the words.
However, a parallel study of the Gospels reveals that He was telling the early Christians to leave when they saw a similar event coming.
Not only did Antiochus defile the temple, but he also attacked the city and killed thousands of Jews.
Because the Jews of Jesus time celebrated Hanukkah, they were well aware of all of the events of 167 BC.

Luke's account clearly tells the early Christians to leave when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies.
In 66 AD the Romans under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city, but then left for some unknown reason.
The Jews killed thousands of the Roman soldiers during the retreat.

The early Christians heeded the words of Jesus and left before the siege of 70 AD.

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Revealing the Abomination of Desolation in the Parallel Gospels:


During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka.



Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. We know Luke 21:20 is related to Matthew 24:15, because the same warning to flee is found in the next verse.

We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.




Lets take a look at the word “compass” in Luke's account...

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Compare this to the reference in Luke chapter 19 about being surrounded and having a trench made around them.)

(Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.)

(The Jewish leadership should have known the time of His visitation, because it was foretold by the angel Gabriel in the Book of Daniel. There was no excuse for them not knowing He was the Messiah. We also find a reference here to the temple being destroyed. This passage clearly connects the events of 70 AD to Jerusalem being surrounded. In the KJV the word "compass" is used in both passages. It should also be noted that the city was surrounded by a Roman army under the command of Cestius Gallus in 66 AD. However, for some unknown reason the Romans stopped the siege and thousands of Romans were killed by the Jews during the retreat. The early Christians left the city sometime before the final siege of 70 AD. They followed the warning given by Christ.)

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

(Compare this verse to what Jesus said to the women crying while he was going to be crucified. Both passages contain a reference to nursing mothers.)

(Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.)

(According to the writings of Josephus, during the siege of 70 AD some mothers ate their own children.)

Almost all scholars, agree that the next verse is about the siege of 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (This last verse contains a reference to a time span that would occur before the fulfillment of the next verse. The time of the Gentiles will not end until the future Second Coming of Christ.)



At the beginning of Matthew chapter 24 the disciples ask Jesus two questions.




Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.



Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?



1. When will the temple be destroyed?


2. What will be the sign of thy coming (Gk. parousia), and the end of the age?




Jesus answers the first question within the first half of Matthew chapter 24.

He answers the second question within the last half of Matthew chapter 24.

The key Greek word “parousia” connects this second question to the future Second Coming of Christ.

This Greek word “parousia” found in other passages of the New Testament connect the passages to Christ’s return.
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I cannot say that it will not happen again.
.